Alph

Odd if it wasn't Israel then why did they claim it before deleting it? They getting hospitals and barracks mixed up again? Clumsy Israel. The UN need to stop attributing such a large amount of Civilian deaths to them. Remember when this was scripted... 

Anyway in other news, turns out Ukraine faked the whole invasion by Russia. Russia has actually only fired care packages. 

23 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Thinking about this from a purely Israeli point of view for a moment. The hamas attack was a shocking and horrible crime against their nation. There are very few people that don't think those members of Hamas who carried out the brutal attacks aren't legitimate targets for the IDF. That much seems to make perfect sense. 

There are others who also believe that any measures employed to destroy Hamas itself is now justified. Given that Hamas are attacking from and are dispersed within Gaza, they view a heavy Palestinian civilian death toll as an unfortunate but necessary side effect of Israel defending itself from an enemy of this nature. That's not my view but that's beside the point, many people support this position including, crucially, the US government. 

But just looking at this strategically, and leaving aside the dreadful human and moral implications for now, isn't this another lamentable strategic mistake in the long term? Won't this mass bombing of Gaza, create future generations of Hamas fighters determined to get their revenge when their time comes.  You could of course say it's been the decades of Israeli policy against the Palestinian people that have allowed Hamas to usurp Fatah in the first place.  Surely the bombing of Gaza in the last few days is just going to serve to prolong this war even further, deepen hatreds and actually strengthen Hamas, by guaranteeing them a whole new generation of eager recruits.  Wouldn't Israel have been better off, purely from it's own perspective,  just trying to tighten border security to make sure gangs of Hamas terrorists couldn't ever do something similar again. 

They could have shown restraint and instead made life even harder for Gaza. Increase patrols, deny them even more rights, limit their trade even further. 

They could have upped their operations in West Bank (they've also done that now as well). Raids like the Jenin raid recently would perhaps have more justification. 

But no. They show exactly what Netenyahu and the IDF think of Palestinian people. "Human animals". 

I don't think they care whether this drives Palestinians to Hamas anyway. The long term aim is to subjugate them all. It's easier if they provide excuses. Either that or they think this is a smack on the bottom and everyone will fall in line?

all fake? Actors? 

Somebody should tell the UN to revise their figures @Magicman

GIves you hope. 

Israel are just really clumsy. 

Wish we'd stop the antisemitism debate. 

Because I don't believe anyone truly believes that it's the underlying issue of the last half century. It's not irrelevant but the vast majority of hate aimed at Israel is aimed at Israel and not Jews. 

The arguments around Israel/Palestine often end up this way and I bet this thread will be closed if it continues down this route? 

Not my place to tell people what to say, of course. 

But it's a bit of sidetrack to the real topic. As @ariotofmyown said, there's probably less animosity towards Jews in the Muslim world than elsewhere?

I thought this pretty accurate. 

I mean that factual guide Rev posted was an example of the style of reporting you get. A few minor lies "Israel was attacked in 1967" and a few rather dismissive "the Palestinians see it as...." (as oppose to it's the way it actually is). Then it's "Israel faced (not 'Israel feels'). 

The pattern is usually to get the real human side across for the country we support. Individual stories, really make people empathize. Then do it on a broader scale for the country we oppose. Tell a wider story. Tell second hand accounts.

The UN suddenly becomes the voice of reason when it condemns Russia. But less so when it criticises Israel. 

We heard all about Russian allies stance on that war. 

But we are told that the country that sends billions to Israel is trying to defuse to situation. Yes, I'm sure peace will be found just as the Palestinians are beaten to a satisfactory level and not a moment sooner. Why not tell the US attitude on the UN council proposals

This time is slightly better thanks to access to various reports from across the world. But still, there's a bias. Because everything is quite generic when it's what they have to report. But much more personal when it's what they want to report. 

Less bias than how it's reported in other parts of the world I concede. Hence Russia Today getting blocked. 

Israel would love this to be about anti-Semitism. 

Takes the spotlight off their expansion, disproportionate retaliation whenever attacked, them ignoring the UN while America veto resolutions. 

They wish it was anti-Semitism

Hamas have, over the years, been recognised as a legitimate government and many parts of the world have been slow or still don't designate them as a terrorist organisation 

Some of the branches of Hamas are like the Qassam Brigade (I think took the "credit" for the festival attack are designated terrorists. But I wonder why so many nations that aren't America or indeed America's pets were so reluctant to do so. 

Hamas are very obviously not helpful for peace. They fight as guerillas often do. They do carry out terror attacks. They are terrorists. But they're also the only real strength against an aggressive expansionist military nation that carries out their own terror.

The IDF/Israel break laws and defy the UN consistently. It's very handy that they're such a great asset in the weapons trade and protected by America and Britain or else maybe they'd be considered terrorist considering the number of deaths of innocent civilians 

Yes, Israel would love this to be about anti-Semitism. They were asked to explain why a missile struck an evacuation route late last week. Originally they refused to acknowledge it (as usual) and then responded to a completely separate incident. 

At what point does the terrible history of treatment of Jewish people stop becoming a defence of their terrible crimes. 

I read, rather than saw, Piers Morgan was holding a Hamas official accountable for the festival attack. And he shut him down with "I don't care about whataboutism" 

You have to care about whataboutism you fookin dog s***. You can't build down a 70 year war to individual moments of conflict. You have to understand the nuance involved to even begin to develop an opinion on a resolution. 

Israel absolutely has a right to defend itself. It has every right to come down hard on Hamas. It has every right to be conscious of the treatment of Jews in history. And Jews have a right to be safe. 

But so do the Arabs in Palestine. And you don't want to begin to compare the number of dead civilians and children because it doesn't favour Israel

Over 6,000 civilian deaths before the recent events since 2008 for Palestine. 

Less than 400 for Israel. 

Over 150,000 for Palestinians requiring hospital treatment as a result of Israeli's 

Just over 6,000 Israelis requiring hospital treatment as a result of Palestinians

Of course, the number of deaths for Palestinians will be higher considering the nature of the conflict. But I think it's fair to say Israel does a little bit more than reasonably protect itself. 

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

1 hour ago, Rev said:

I'm just dipping my toe in the subject really, so the reading list is much appreciated.  

It goes without saying that I automatically doubt all words that spring from Alistair Campbells lips.

Yeah I wasn't like trying to dig you out. Or even argue with a lot with the video. I just thought it a touch glossy over some important events and the 1967 thing is wrong 

There was another interview someone linked me to that they found useful. I'll try to find it. 

I don't know if it's perhaps more the other way. To my ears it sounds neutral but I am biased. I try to rein it in but being angry at America and Israel comes too easy

16 hours ago, Rev said:

 

 

Always instantly triggered by any argument on this that begins 3,000 years ago. 

Another point was that he said "In 1967 there was an attack in Israel. But the debate has always been whether Israel was acting first in self defence or was the aggressor. That Israel struck first is not for debate. They did. At Egypt

Another issue is he says that Israel handed over Gaza to Palestinian control. Now that implies that they didn't still have a tight grip on Gaza. Yes, Gaza is still not in Israeli control. Unless you count minor things like travel, trade, water, fuel, electricity etc. If you count those things then Israel with it's navy and air force do control Gaza

We also talked about 100 enclaves of settlements. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

https://www.un.org/unispal/in-facts-and-figures/

Also, again likes the story to begin with the festival attack but no mention of Jenin refugee raid. https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/news/excessive-force-a-legal-analysis-of-israels-operation-in-jenin-refugee-camp/

Another interesting insight https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel

He also is very quick to gloss over the first and second intifada. Confirming his bias. 

As soon as it starts with 3,000 years ago you know. He tried to hide his bias but he's about as neutral as me.

2,600 dead apparently so far. Next phase of attack is incoming they say

@PistoldPete I apologise if I was a bit rude in my "cry Holocaust" comment. I didn't mean it how it came across. Its the most brutal episode of human history and I know how Jews have been treated through history around the world. I do know they need to defend themselves in the Middle East. 

Oh the idea that Israel faked or planned the festival attack I do hate. Because it actually is harmful for Palestine that people would try and paint Hamas as anything other than Iranian funded terrorists hellbent on destroying Israel. 

It was Hamas. They're pretty clear in their goals and what they call civilians who choose to settle on land they see as Palestine. 

All the conspiracy stuff, even if true (which I don't believe), only has us arguing about 1 event rather than a 70 year conflict.

I feel like standing arguing that Israel killed their own people just undermines the real concern for Gaza. Hamas are certainly capable! 

9/11 had a stronger conspiracy theory!! 

7 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

There are people who quite genuinely deny that the Holocaust happened. And people with similar agenda who deny the Hamas terrorist attacks happened (including at least one on this forum for example). There are some who refuse to accept that anti semitism is racism (Whoopi Goldberg for one). The very idea that Israelis could possibly be the victims seems anathema to some. 

People who criticise Israel generally criticise no other country apart from Israel. Why is that? 

So no I do not accept that people who do nothing but criticise Israel are not biased and prejudiced in their views and that, especially given the root cause of that bias  is anti semitism in my view.

I'm not sure I understand? I think there's many like myself that

know what Hamas/Hezbollah etc do. Understand Israel's need to combat these threats

don't deny the Holocaust, aren't antisemitic

blame Britain for it's terrible handling of the initial Jew/Arab conflicts after WW2. 

Blame USA for it's encouragement and funding of Israeli expansion. Never mind it's hypocrisy

Are angry with the UN's lack of action. And indeed the world's lack of concern for the run of play for at least 50 years

Consider Israel to be aggressive expansionists based on many blatant factors.

Think the media coverage is bias and paints the image of a fair fight, only becomes mainstream when there's a response from Hamas, Hezbollah. 

.... I think that represents the views of many Pro Palestinian supporters. I don't think that's unfair. 

Of course antisemitism exists. What we are seeing around the world is disgusting anti Semitic attacks. Ignorant that not every Jew is a pro-Israel supporter never mind the complexity to the religion 

Likewise though you will find Islamophobia. As we've seen in the past with attacks around the world on innocent Muslims after terrorist attacks. 

It always seems to me a gaslighting thing to accuse anyone anti Israel to also be anti Jew when there's so much evidence that Israel are an aggressive military force that break laws. It's not like it's a weak argument for Nazis to cling onto. 

1 hour ago, Magicman said:

Each attack on Israel will be reason they fight back. 

What? 

Does this apply to Russia and Ukraine? Every attack on Russian Front lines deserves a disproportionate response from Russia? 

Have a look at the 1967 war. 

Explain to me how in the following decades Israeli expansion is defensive 

How there are 700,000 illegal settlers in West Bank. How settling is encouraged by Israel. 

How can you claim it's self defence and response to attacks. Even the disgusting festival attack came a week after the Jenin refugee attack which was condemned by the UN. 

I understand that Israel do have to defend themselves and continue to hunt Hamas and other terrorist groups.

But that just not what they do. Any interactive map of the last 70 years will show that they don't just "defend and respond"

The UN themselves have condemned Israel. https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/news/excessive-force-a-legal-analysis-of-israels-operation-in-jenin-refugee-camp/

What's the number of civilian deaths in Gaza now? 2,500?

41 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Holocaust cry? What a mardy bum I am crying over millions being exterminated. 

Nice try. 

But this is about Israeli occupation. Israeli aggression. Israel. Not all Jews. Not even the Jews that want to live in peace. Not the Jews against Israel movement. Not about British washing our hands of the whole thing and certainly not about who the original people of the land were a couple of thousand years back. 

I've seen the argument a million times. Jews have been persecuted through history. I know. But that is not an excuse for Israel to defend themselves when they kill Palestinians. And it's boring that there are those that try to put that kind of pressure on anybody who criticises Israel. Do you think all Palestinians want all Jews dead? Do you think I'm a Nazi who celebrates the Holocaust? It's not plot armor. It's like the classic gaslighting argument put forward against anyone who's against Israel. How is it relevant? Do you really think people have forgotten the Holocaust? Really? I don't get the purpose of your original comment? 

Just as Hamas can't excuse their crimes by pointing to breaches of international law and excusing the killing of children by saying they're invaders on Palestinian land. I've not tried to justify them

29 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Actually the story began with the Holocaust. Or was the evidence for that not enough for some? 

No, the story for Palestinians did not begin there. But the talk of a land for Jewish people where they won't be persecuted began before even that. 

However, the persecution of Jewish people shouldn't be the plot armor to deflect from their expansion and illegal occupation. 

You don't just get to do the classic anti-Semitism/holocaust cry to excuse their role in this. Even if you're pro Israel you can't deny their aggressive illegal expansion. It's a fact

I do love how this story starts with the festival attack. 

It's almost as if the story was written by the genocidal murderer Netenyahu. Defend themselves in the textbook manner the Romans did. Never started a fight but somehow defended the city of Rome into a vast empire

Shame nobody reads the prequel. It's called 70 years of conflict with chapters including "1967", "billions of dollars in military aid", "illegal occupation" and  "Jenin and other refugee camp raids".

My favourite chapter is "please leave within 24 hours"

Oh wait, you can't.

1 hour ago, Magicman said:

They were attacked so any response is justified as long as it complies with guidelines set by UN. They are neither nazi nor should they be labelled such given their history. 

Israel were attacked? So they can indiscriminately dropped bombs on Palestinians? 

Israel attacked in 1967. Israel has broken the law over and over. It's excessive military operations have been noted by the UN. The raid on Jenin refugee camp was what, a week? before the festival attack. 

Their border continues to expand. They blockade the people of Gaza. 

Palestinians are not Hamas any more than East Ukrainians are Azov. 

Israel has hundreds of illegal settlements. Illegal even under Israeli law. 700,000 people live in illegal occupied land. UN recognises this as fact

The people of Gaza live in poverty. The unemployment is at 50%. They can't trade, they can't fish, they can't leave. Their skies are patrolled by Israeli fighter jets and their sea is patrolled by Israeli gun boats. They were given 24 hours to abandon their homes with nowhere to go. Leaving behind their dead and injured. 24 hours to evacuate elderly and children. Injured from Israeli assaults. All done with no water, power and very limited fuel.

In West Bank Palestinians face Israeli intimidation and military brutality on a regular basis. They lose their land and are driven back while Israeli settlers build towns. 

But yeah, it all began with a festival attack by terrorists....

5 hours ago, SSD said:

Spot on David.

There's so many aggressive arguments from both sides all over the media platforms and I'm scratching my head thinking innocent people from both have been brutally murdered.

A dance music festival being enjoyed by thousands of Jewish folks, nothing political, people having a good time. All of a sudden people in gliders with machine guns open fire and kill well over 200 people. Then innocent families in Gaza being killed by missiles and now being told they need all need to evacuate before they are bombed 24 hours later.

I'm pretty certain 95% of people on both sides want to live in peace and carry on their daily lives. The media seem to blow up this idea it's Jews vs Muslims and everyone hates it each other. That's just not true. 

Horrific to watch, nobody deserves this level of violence.

Problem in this war is that on one side you have Israel that actually encourages it's people to settle in Palestinian land. Every time these civilians are attacked it justifies the next military action. 

On the other side Hamas/Hezbollah etc in particular don't see these civilians as civilians. They're complicit. Stealing land and expanding Israeli borders. So when they kill hundreds of people at a festival it's hundreds that can't steal land and support the Israeli occupation. 

Israel face guerilla warfare and we've seen time and time again how these people fight. Unable to field armies with air and sea support they resort to shocking raids and terror. They hide amongst civilians using them human shields because there's no other way for them to survive and fight

Obviously I agree with you. Millions of innocent Jews and Arabs are pawns. I'm not sure how to view the illegal settlers but certainly not how Hamas do. Children are not invaders.  And how do you view the people of Gaza who did support Hamas in 2006. Certainly not as "Human animals" who you can blockade and torment. 

There will be no peace. Not without sanctions on Israel. And even then the goals of Iranian funded groups are to eradicate Israel entirely. There will be no two state solution. None of the players want peace. 

It's depressing to think so many Jews and Arabs have to live in fear.

I think Derby is a dump too. I plan to leave as I get older. It's just work and schools that keep us here

14 minutes ago, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

What has always puzzled me is why the UN is absent. Take Cyprus, there is a no man's land border separating northern Cyprus from the south. Why can't they have something like this around Gaza. Israel have made Gaza a 21miles long prison for years. Hamas are a proxy for the Iran nutters as I understand it. Two wrongs have never made a right, simple as that. As several posters have said it is one hell of a s*** show.

The UN do try I think. They're pretty powerless and had the whole situation dumped in their lap when the British realised that Arabs and Jews were never going to find peace in the region. 

They're just so powerless. 

An example of the dog off it's lead. There are plenty more 

https://www.diakonia.se/ihl/news/excessive-force-a-legal-analysis-of-israels-operation-in-jenin-refugee-camp/

The response from UK and USA was the predictable rhetoric. 

Russia should really change their flag to the star of David