Alph

6 minutes ago, cstand said:

Because Israel is a democratic country unlike the totalitarian states that it has to protect itself against on on regular basis. 
The totalitarian states that surround Israel would crush any demonstrations that don’t fit with their narrative. 

That's how they're protesting. Not why. 

1 hour ago, Spanish said:

IMO this thread is not a cesspit.  A massive issue that has been discussed here with incredible care and balance.  Not sure you will find another like this conducted in a similar manner.  Pretty much compliments to all the posters including @Carl Sagan .  I have found it illuminating.

It's just annoying when people try to reduce your argument to

"if you're only argument is that they didn't behead babies then you have no argument at all". 

And

"I've been to music festivals... Imagine if....." 

There's so much more to Hamas than just insane murder. People call the situation complex but it seems that's only to excuse Israel. It's never complex when it's Hamas. But it's important to take time to understand why Hamas exist. Because they aren't going to be removed unless you remove a need(?) for a resistance. Painting them as just straight up savage barbarians is convenient. 

Give Hamas the weaponry Israel have and see it they resort to car bombs and AK's. Stick Israeli Jews in a densely populated region the size of Glasgow and see if Hamas use paragliders and swords. If they could sit in Tel Aviv and just press buttons to wipe out Israel that's exactly what they'd do. Because they're no more or less evil than the Israeli state. 

Would that sit better? Would that make them more civilised? 

As for the relatability he went into great depth with. Well also imagine forcibly being removed from your house. Your neighbours brutally beaten. Set on fire. Shot in cold blood. Stabbed to death. Then your home demolished and your entire suburb redistributed to others. Imagine protesting this and being shot. Imagine the lights going out in your city and you can't leave. Bombs destroying your home. Wiping at your business. Killing your friends. And you have zero say in who runs your country. You are born in a cage you will never leave. 

This is the thing that I find frustrating. People always want to talk about the complex issues around Israel/Jews. Which I get. And I get that there would be NO Israel if Hamas had power. 

But when it comes to the other side they want to flat refuse any reasoning. They're just savages. And to make sure they're only ever discussed on that level we can't just have them killing people. They have to be doing it in the most graphic and evil ways. To the most vulnerable. So any argument on their point is instantly null and void. 

The funny story about the Hamas suicide bomber that Israel found an instruction manual on. Come on!!! ffs. What sort of suicide bomber carries a shopping list with them? Get real ffs. The truth is bad. Stop making lies to halt any further discussion. 

This is why Palestinians won't come out and instantly condemn Hamas. Because first they want to talk about the wider conflict. They want Israel to be held to the same standards as Hamas. THEN, we can talk about Hamas as evil. Once we set the rules. 

Not "terrorist attack" Vs "collateral damage" 

Why are there protests in Israel?

Are these Jews not aware of the Holocaust? Are they not aware that Hamas attacked their people? 

Why are there calls for end of occupation? Jew traitors?

4 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Wow, this thread's become a cesspit hasn't it?

First of, when Hamas invaded Israel on 7th October it was surely the most shocking and evil terror attack of my lifetime. Hundreds of party goers simply slaughtered at a music festival. As someone who frequently attends gigs and festivals, oh my god. Imagining what happened there. You don't even have to imagine because there's terrible footage if you want to force yourself to see it. Yet that was the least worst of it. Families just shot in their beds, or brought out, there hands tied behind their backs with wire, and simply burnt alive. Yes, babies beheaded. Women raped, then their breasts cut off as trophies. The perpetrators glorying in it in their own GoPro footage, or filming it on their victims' phones, posting it to their victims' social media accounts.

Hundreds including babies, toddlers, and the elderly, once in the concentration camps in their early lives, now taken hostage by these evil people at the end of their lives. With maybe 10 British hostages who we don't hear anything about.

Whatever @Alphamight say, this is a fight against evil. And if your only argument is to claim that "babies weren't beheaded they were simply shot in the head", you don't have much of an argument.

But it's also true that Netanyahu is evil too. A corrupt, incompetent politician clinging to power through extremists or else he'll be tried for his own crimes. And on his watch the Israeli army, once so powerful, became so slapdash. Leaving him in the position of being unable to defend Israel's borders, meaning Hamas might come and slaughter thousands more next week, or next month, or next year.

Clearly Hamas acted in the certain knowledge Israel would seek retribution. They would have assumed a near instant Israeli ground offensive to recover the hostages and mete out revenge, and they would have been ready. Lying in wait, their best laid plans ready to use their tunnels and well-prepared defences, fighting on their home turf, expecting to kill lots of Israeli soldiers. They weren't counting on Netanyahu being quite so evil in return.

The Israeli PM knew his position was untenable once hundreds more Israeli soldiers started dying, so instead he decided not to send them in to die. And decided to bomb Gaza back to the stone age instead. The whole situation is horrible.

If there's a ceasefire, then Hamas simply regroups and carries on murdering Israelis, in the hope of killing every single Jew and destroying the state of Israel. If there's no ceasefire, it seems thousands more Palestinians will be killed.

It is a war. One way to stop the fighting would be for Hamas, the governing power in Gaza, to release their hostages and surrender before any more Palestinians die. That's normally how wars end, when one side is clearly militarily superior than the other and will keep killing the other side unless they surrender. But one thing that makes this no ordinary war is that the Hamas leaders couldn't really care less about the non-Hamas Palestinians, hence using them and the Israeli hostages as human shields. 

And if Israel stop before eradicating Hamas, or risk too many ground troops in the conflict, Netanyahu is toast so he isn't going to do that. And, after what happened a month ago, it's clear no Israeli leader can allow Hamas to remain in Gaza, even if Netanyahu falls.

Perhaps the Palestinian people will turn on Hamas, but that doesn't look at all likely. No foreign power is going to step in to "keep the peace" and provide some sort of buffer zone, as this war is too horrific. So the world watches in horror, as we all do. I don't know the solution, but I do know it is wrong to belittle what Hamas did a month ago. And I know the Israelis bombing Gaza is a horrible thing. Just as Britain bombing German cities and Germany bombing British cities, and America nuking Japanese cities in WWII, were all terrible things. The America argument for doing that then is probably similar to the Israeli one now: why should they have thousands of American troops die to force the Japanese to surrender, when they could do it without American casualties?

It's very hard to see how it can end. And especially how it can end well in any way at this point. 

You call the thread a cesspit and then post that. Like the only point I've made is babies weren't beheaded so it's fine. 

Okay let's walk through it. 

How does what's happening in Gaza eliminate Hamas? 

Are Hamas in West Bank? 

If I came to you before October 7th and showed you the data of civilian deaths and came with horrifying examples like families being burned alive and a whole list of barbaric crimes commited by IDF forces, crimes noted by every Human Rights group, then what would you say? 

(Good work on mentioning Holocaust. Always a good defence for a government mass murdering a specific people and driving them from their land. Zzzz)

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

Just for clarity, they weren't solely Israeli, they included volunteer experts from around the world. 

There's no evidence of 40 beheaded babies. There isn't. It was a lie. 

Why are you so desperate to defend Israel? They are the occupiers. Palestinians are the oppressed. Hamas are vile but do you think it's not pretty much part of the game that you'll face a militant resistance when you're an Apartheid state killing Palestinians and stealing their homes. 

What right have they got. All I hear is "Holocaust". Feck that. That does not give them the right to do what they do in West Bank. Nothing does. 

What's the UN take on Israel? Human Rights Watch? Amnesty Int? Save The Children? 

You know what they do in West Bank? You know right? 

And you know Gaza is a prison? Patrolled by gun boats and jet fighters? Fenced in? 

And it gets plunged into darkness while Palestinians die in their thousands. Not Hamas. Palestinians. 

And is anyone here stupid enough to think this wipes out Hamas? Really? How many people have come on this thread and suggested it will make them stronger? Or radicalise more Palestinians? It's bloody obvious to anybody. Everybody. So what are they doing then? Take into consideration their actions in West Bank. 

Everything is disproportionate. 

Do you see the amount of Jews not crying "anti-Semitism"?. Do you see the amount of Jews calling this genocide? Do you know of JewsForJustice? What do these people make of Israel's behaviour for decades? 

Everybody was there with their Ukraine flags in their gardens. Changing their profile picture to Ukraine flags. Offering them a bedroom. Why? Because they agreed bombing the s*** out of people is generally not nice. 

But Israel have done this for decades. And they kill Palestinians where there are no Hamas. 

But rather than accept it we've got people on here saying no. These Arabs have no right to fight back. Israel has a right to defend itself. 

Thousands dead in Gaza. Thousands dead in the last decade. People burned alive, stoned, dragged from their homes by settlers and beaten to death. Protesters shot with live ammunition. Video evidence from Israel proven fake. Lies from Netenyahu and leaks about what he really thinks of Hamas. 

Are you going to offer up an equal defence for Russia's invasion? Is anyone? No. Some are barely willing to acknowledge any of the actual facts Putin laid down. Because once you start dropping bombs on hospitals you generally lose support

But no. Not Israel. People will leap to find a defence for illegal occupation. For the disproportionate killings of innocent people. 'Well they've faced ethnic cleansing so cut em some slack. They're defensive'

Nope. Only an idiot thinks they're there for Hamas. They're no better than Hamas. They lie. They murder. They're terrorists. But Palestinians aren't. They just lose everything. There for Hamas my backside. 

They're there for the "peace corridor." For the handshake with Saudi Arabia and to threaten Iran. They're there to secure natural resources. They've been saying it for frcking decades. Go check. 

Or are you going to tell me this is a hostage rescue? It's self defence? It's defeating Hamas?

anti-Semitism this and Holocaust that. The air stinks of Islamophobia. If Palestinians were white Europeans there'd be crocodile tears pissing out of the lot of you.

https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation again for anyone who missed it. Just how are they better than Hamas? They're just more efficient at killing. 

https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation

Just in case anybody thinks Israel never lie. 

Of course there's lying from Palestinians. They're currently being illegally occupied and ethnically cleansed. So a balanced argument right now seems a bit of a joke. 

I don't even need to argue with that. Better I just agree. 

Israeli forensic teams say they find evidence of horrific attack. But they can't be sure if some of the butchering was after. 

Meanwhile the people of Gaza are exaggerating the effects of indiscriminate bombing. 

"Actors" I think somebody said earlier in the thread. 

16 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Talking of a lack of evidence, @Alpha has the clown who keeps referencing 'beheaded babies' provided any shred of proof as yet? Seems even that old fool Biden has now retracted and the Israeli government itself has declared it 'cannot confirm' the stories, which is an interesting choice of words in itself. 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/

Plus ça change...🤷‍♀️

The beheaded babies/rape seems more and more like the propaganda to paint Hamas as monsters so that Israel can do their horrific work and it looks civil by comparison. 

What Hamas did do though seems bad enough from independent evidence. They were trying to kidnap women and children but were shooting men at point blank range. They were gathering them in shelters or houses and throwing grenades in. That accounts for the images of charred bodies. 

Most of the evidence of mass rape, beheadings etc seems to only come from Israel forensic teams and it's not been independently verified. Israel have a history of  "evidence"

What Israel also don't mention is their Hannibal Directive. To open fire without restraint even if that means killing hostages. I mean, we know this anyway because they're bombing Gaza and if the hostages are still alive it's because Hamas are keeping them safe. Some of the damage from October 7th isn't consistent with Hamas weaponry but at the end of the day Hamas were the ones that caused 1,400 deaths so the fact that IDF don't hold fire in hostage situations is probably not something to give too much significance? 

Another one is the hospital strikes. We saw "proof" that the rocket was from Hamas. But that proof is not conclusive after all. 

And then there was the journalists private screening they were invited to. A "horrifying compilation".... Oh I bet it was. Did it include the Duma attack? Nah. Did it mention Huwara? I doubt it. 

Israel lies. Yet we still buy it until it's proven false and then it's too late. They'd hate you to think this is an extremely violent resistance fighting an extremely violent state. You might start suggesting Arab lives are as important as Jew lives. Better to sprinkle some extra barbaric savagery wherever possible. It's a good sell

44 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

One small, but important (IMO) point of order. Shouldn’t you have said Israeli response rather than Jewish response?
 

Apart from that, I agree.

I did think that too. I knew what he meant but it's important to distinguish. Many Jews are horrified because they're human and too familiar ethnic cleansing. 

I think a genuine mistake from Bob. Suella Braverman however makes no such distinction between Palestinians/pro-Palestinians and terrorists. She's vile and starting to make Liz Truss comments in the Ukraine conflict seem quite calm and reasonable. 

45 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

 

I suspect ina dacde Hamas will be even more powerful after a flood of new converts driven to them by the power trying to wipe them out.

Maybe I'm naive.

But this is not a problem. Israel will push the population of Gaza into Sinai. Israel will then be free to continue to drive the Palestinians back in West Bank. Hopefully a militant resistance forms there (Israel might have to help create one again) and that will accelerate that process by justifying excessive force by Israeli military on that front. 

So these resistance groups are good. They help Israel with an excuse to achieve their ultimate goal and that's to create a "peace corridor" ($$$) from Asia, UAE up through Israel into Europe. And serves the American interest in the Middle East while posing a direct threat to Iran. Biden was clear in 1986. Netenyahu has been a good boy!! 

Palestinians are free to join Hamas, move to Egypt or be pushed into the Jordan River. Who cares? They're in the way. 

Ah! Sderot! 

I hear they have an excellent cinema. 

1 hour ago, Ramrob said:

El Ghazi contract terminated: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67312754

Am I missing something? What has he said that ‘wasn’t tolerable for the club’? He said this week: 

"I condemn the killing of all innocent civilians in Palestine and Israel.

"My sympathies are with the innocent victims of this conflict irrespective of their nationality. I am committed to a peaceful and integrated Middle East region.

"To the extent my previous statements on social media have been misunderstood, I would like to make clear that I stand for peace and humanity for all."

 

 

He said Israel were committing genocide in his original post and followed with "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free".  

What El Ghazi did was bring the game into disrepute and I swear on the life of a slave, building a world cup stadium, that not even free speech will tarnish that reputation. 

Football doesn't do politics... 

But the Holocaust happened and a Palestinian State would be a terrorist state. So it's fine. 

It's not like they're Europeans dying. That's the main thing. 

It's their own fault for not separating themselves from Hamas. 

They need to be more liberal. More democratic. Like Israel and the Ethiopian Jews and Arabs that live there. State Bill passed in 2018 benefits all. It's more democratic than Iran. What more do you want?

Okay, so Israel occasionally borrow houses and set people on fire. And sometimes they can be heavy handed. But the Holocaust happened. And it was their land anyway before the Romans drove them out. So the Arabs only have a few years of squatters rights. 

Now I've admitted some minor misbehaviour by Israel then I can continue, from my neutral position, to support the IDF doing to Palestinians what Europeans did to the Jews. 

Those parasites like JewsForJusticeForPalestinians are Antisemitic 

#NoCeasefire

#LightsOut

#BombsAway

#NoHamas=Peace

God those Americans love funding peace.

20 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I'm not convinced that you do - and you seem to be confusing "explanation" and "context" with "excuse" and seem to be taking too much of what I've posted personally (it wasn't meant to be) - so I'll leave you to your thread now and hope that this lamentable and unnecessary bloodbath ends far sooner than my most optimistic expectation.

I did take it personal since most of this thread is me ranting! Can't help it!! 

I don't know Jewish history deeply but I feel I'm at least aware of the treatment of Jews. The segregation and the pogroms. The expulsion of Jews. 

But also some things I didn't know was the treatment of Jews from places like Ethiopia when migrating to Israel. 

I just can't draw a line between fear, paranoia, security and the way Israel behaves for the last few decades. Like I can join the dots to a certain point. But then it just looks like they're doing to Palestinians what has happened to Jews. There's no balance and "disproportionate" is the word of the day. Actual state terrorism, making a mockery of international law. This bombing of Gaza... It's totally in line with the way Israel behave. 

I apologise if I was overly aggressive or rude. 

44 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

That was two years ago, apparently. 

Ah, well no hard feelings I hope. 

49 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Are we to assume that Khameini also wants his own people to "be able to determine their fate and get rid of thugs"? I suspect not. It's reminiscent of Erdogan, just a few days ago, proclaiming that Hamas "were not terrorists" : I imagine the leadership of the PKK choked on their breakfasts at that one. Israelis at least have the choice whether  to get rid of Netanyahu or not - that looked on the cards until October 7th. I've seen the conspiracy theories about that, both the plausible and risible ones, but whatever caused the IDF to drop their guard, there's little doubt in my mind that Hamas took the opportunity/bait since no-one from their organisation has denied it was them. The earlier analogy with the SS was pretty offensive and extreme IMO but is often made by the same kind of people who excuse Putin for using similar tactics in Ukraine "because NATO provoked him". FWIW, I think Israel's response is counter-productive and. like the original Hamas attack, not likely to be easily forgotten or forgiven. (Incidentally, where were all those marching in London and elsewhere at the weekend when the Uighurs plight needed to be highlighted? How many didn't make it home from the "Free Tibet" marches that they didn't attend? Why is the Palestinians plight seen differently? Is it 'sexier'? Or is it more about who they're fighting?)

Ultimately, both the revised charter of Hamas and the words of Khameini, if enacted, would lead to collosal loss of life, mass displacement of Jews (again), and virtual serfdom under an Islamic Republic (as is still called for in Hamas' charter). All that is contrary to what is demanded by the UN and supported by most of the world's democracies at least - a genuine 2-State solution based on the 1967 borders - and so, theoretically at least, those calling for the destruction of the State of Israel are themselves "warmongers" and potential murderers. Yet they're not the focus of either criticism or entreaties.

Finally, I will say that, in some senses, I agree with those who point out that this conflict didn't start on October 7th : it didn't even start with the events of 1947/48; or with the Balfour declaration; it effectively started around 627 AD at Medina. If people don't understand why Israel is such a belligerent nation, or why Jews outside of Israel look upon it as their potential refuge, they really should read a little wider and perhaps more deeply than X, Tik-Tok and YouTube videos. 

 

In there we're saying people that don't care about X issue have no moral right to care about Y issue? 

That's like what Rachel Riley said? "Nobody cared about these Muslims dying so why care now?" .... Ok Rachel. You're right. We didn't care then so feck em. Same with Cancer. If you didn't care before Auntie Julie got breast cancer then feck off with your sponsored runs. 

Different causes effect different people. 

The last paragraph is again what often begins of the descent into anti-Semitism claims. It's nonsense. Nobody in this thread has denied Israel. Only the "Holocaust shield" against Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. 

You like to dismiss people's opinions because they get their information from TikTok.... Come on. Please. It would be insulting if it wasn't funny 🤣. Nobody here has used the UN, Amnesty, Save The Children and International Law to back up an opinion. 

It's all just trendy hipsters following a trend. @GboroRam, how long ago was it that we had a bit of back and forth over my Palestine flag that I had for a long time? (Thanks to you mods and David for allowing this thread by the way). 

The thing here is that the mainstream media picked it up. Not people. Many many many of these voices you hear now could be heard years ago. If you didn't hear them then maybe it's you who were caught in the trend?

I support a 2 state solution. You said

"All that is contrary to what is demanded by the UN and supported by most of the world's democracies at least - a genuine 2-State solution based on the 1967 borders - and so, theoretically at least, those calling for the destruction of the State of Israel are themselves "warmongers" and potential murderers. Yet they're not the focus of either criticism"

Erm... They are. But Israel are the military power here. Israel are the ones occupying Palestinian land. You can't talk about a 2 state solution or expect no resistance when you're invading a land and holding Gaza hostage. The first step to peace is at least the nation of Israel obeying international law and not encouraging these outrageous crimes in West Bank. 

anti-Semitism and time traveling back a few thousand years is always a laughable argument. We need to take in events before October 7th. We don't need to go back to the 7th cenWe really don't. We don't need to have Jews backed into the sea for peace anymore than we need Gaza bombed to oblivion. 

I understand the Jewish history. The suffering. It's just not an excuse. Neither is Putin's national security concerns an excuse for invading Ukraine. Which literally nobody here said. They just denied the fact he made everything up because he's a pure evil villain and America is totally innocent of all his accusations

1 hour ago, TigerTedd said:

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. It’s all just a case of perspective, and the blurry lens of history.

History might paint a narrative one way or another, but in either case, no one who picks up a weapon can claim innocence. And they certainly can’t claim to be following any known religion.

 

There's probably a long uncomfortable inappropriate conversation to be had about what terrorism is. 

The Suffragettes were responsible for bombing and Arson. Has there been many major changes or a coup against powers that be done without violence? I'm not sure there has.

@Stive Pesleyin another thread arguing about Just Stop Oil etc and was saying these ridiculous stunts that piss people off are the only way to make change. I remember arguing against him but I think I'm wrong. I mean to what lengths and where these protests should be I suppose is a debate. But I understand now what he means. Nobody listens to the sensible guy in the corner. It has to shock. It has to reach beyond the normal audience. 

Anyway, this isn't helpful and borders or even oversteps the mark of justifying Hamas attacks on innocent people. Which is equally as disgusting as the state terrorism we are seeing in Gaza. 

It's impossible to justify terrorism. But at the same time we brand it differently when it's in the history books and the outcome seems morally sound, no? 

I wonder sometimes if Hamas' official line was "Free state of Palestine" that would this group be seen differently? 

But again, behind Israel and Hamas are lot of very powerful people who prod them both to fight. People who live safely in USA, Britain, Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia etc etc 

37 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

does anyone think that all Israel's approach will do is generate more hatred in the Palestinian people towards them, and feed into decades more "tit for tat" back and forth revenge?

One step further...

Biden's speech in 1986. Before Hamas existed. "We would need to create an Israel if one didn't exist" 

Israel are recruiting for Hamas right now. And that's not a problem at all. It's great news and makes tomorrow's war so much easier. Israel is the American Imperialist key to the Middle East. That key needs a lock. Hamas are the lock. If there's no lock then you have to break down the door and then you look like burglars 

9 hours ago, Crewton said:

Ceasefire? Good luck with that.

 

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6

Everyone knows what Hamas are and their ultimate objective of destroying Israel entirely. 

However, if the purpose of this article is to show why Israel must eliminate Hamas then I'd ask how does what they are doing eliminate Hamas? 

Another thing to remember is Israel are the occupiers. Hamas the resistance. Not meaning to say Hamas are the noble freedom fighters. Again, Iranian funded extremist who call for the eradication of ALL Israel. But Israel is the one who occupies land illegally and has Gaza under seige for decades. The fact Netenyahu can convince people that they are the victim because a militant group opposes their oppression is pretty shocking. Hamas might not be Robin Hood and his Merry Men. But Israel are not innocent defenders of democracy. 

A ceasefire won't happen not just because of Hamas. But because America and the EU haven't even called for one, never mind taken action. They've called for "humanitarian pauses". A chance for Palestinians to leave behind their dead and injured to ultimately serve Israel's objective. 

A ceasefire has never happened in the West Bank. 

There are now thousands of families that had very little and now have even less. A future in internment camps with even more poverty and less freedom. People that have lost their entire families. 

Many of these people will now choose Hamas. They'll die fighting for their land and future of their people. Better that than surrender to a life worse than they had before. 

Hamas need wiping out for peace. But that's not the only step to peace and even if it happened now then another resistance would form in their place. 

Piers Morgan invited Bassem Youssef back. Probably because he absolutely destroyed Morgan and Ben Shapiro with their own logic and tens of millions of people enjoyed it. 

Piers doing a bit of back tracking as most Zionist supporters have done when brought into actual debate. 

It really gave Bassem a stage though to be fair and he was allowed to speak instead of argue. 

Allowed to address the back and forth hate rather than be forced to defend a position. 

It's not at all anti Semitic or even anti Israel. He's not a believer that Israel has no rights or future. 

It's just bang on the money. It's fair and it's the kind of talk that would have millions of ordinary Muslims and Jews finding an agreement in. 

100% worth anybodies time. 

Obviously for Morgan this is about ratings and rescuing some of his credibility to even deserve an opinion. But the outcome is still the same. The evil the pushes innocent people to hate each other but we all fall for it. 

"Comedians are the last truth tellers"

https://youtu.be/_oDhfavmZa8?si=czcz3FMHjbWvNdUm

5 minutes ago, cstand said:

Whoops got you Ariotofmyown mixed up.😀

I don’t think adding fuel to the fire which is already burning too bright is a very good idea.

Especially calling MPs murderers already had two MPs killed in this country we don’t want anymore MPs being targeted. 
 

 

Sunak to Netenyahu who's committing war crimes “I'm proud to stand with you in Israel's darkest hour as your friend, we will stand with you in solidarity, we will stand with your people, and we want you to win.”

Collective punishment seems fine when it's Palestinians or Russians. Whether it be American missiles fired from Israel or sanctions on Russian citizens. Guilty by association works fine then. 

But when it's our Government backing the occupier to defeat the occupied on the back of over 50 years of oppression we want them to be able to distance themselves from it? Despite them not calling for a ceasefire and only humanitarian pauses. An MP was sacked wasn't he for not supporting the stance. He wanted Palestinians to stop being killed. 

My "edit" as far as I remember was to add "previous wars taken into account"

Because "Sir" Tony Blair and Co went into Iraq on false claims. 

You can pretend I'm encouraging violence on politicians if you want. If that's your main concern when over 8,000 innocent people are killed in occupied Palestine and isolated, blacked out Gaza. Settler violence is also on the rise. But hopefully nobody says anything mean to Sunak or Stamer.