Ghost of Clough

I was responding to the poster who said "Didn’t Florists put a younger team out that us that night ? Including a very young Brennan Johnson making his debut. Thrown in the deep end . At the end of the day it boils down to the quality of youngsters coming into the club."
I wsa showing them what the teams of both sides were on the night.
 
I'm not denying there wasn't a rebuild because we have lost a lot of talented youngsters. However, we do still have a number of talented players who aren't getting the first team experience they need for their development. Warne's approach is out of touch with the modern game, but that's not surprising when he's only ever worked at a club with a Category 3 academy prior to joining our club.
I would struggle to recall the score lines of individual games too. However, I would find it impossible to forget the scoreline of a game I attended a few hours ago, unless I wasn't interested in anything other than the first team players who are on the field, and then walk away when they've come off the pitch.
Warne shouldn't be relying on Buxton. He should be using his own judgment on players for the same reasons that everyone on this forum holds different opinions to someone else.
Small details matter:
2-0 up with 10 minutes to play against Lincoln in the Pizza Cup. It's the perfect scenario to give Robinson or Brown a runout to show what they can do, and to also give Smith or Collins a rest. Instead we only use 4 out of our 5 subs. 1-0 up vs Fleetwood. We've only used 4 subs and Mendez-Laing can hardly walk. We could have brought Bardell on to add fresh legs to the RWB area, or added Robinson to the midfield area to help shield the defence
2-0 up vs Carlisle with 2 subs spare. Another opportunity to give minutes to Robinson in a low risk scenario and give Smith a rest.

What utter nonsense. Everyone at the club has talked of winning promotion this season as the aim. Warne has even targeted top 3. Our budget at the very least is top 6, and a chance of it actually being the highest wage bill in the league this season. We are 8 games in, sit 9th in the table thanks to an over reliance on set pieces and Waggy magic, whilst performing more like a bottom half side not far off the relegation spots.
Anything less than promotion this season is a failure.

Lack of knowledge being minimal is a good thing right? Double negative. 😀

B Hamer - Experienced GK
M Clarke - Multiple POTY winning CB
C Davies - Vastly experienced CB
L Buchanan - Youngster. Became a regular in the team, now first choice in a top 10 Champ team
G Shinnie  - Experienced CM, POTY one season
 > (Bird, 83) - Youngster? Since established as a mainstay in our team, mentally very strong, unlikely to have been affected!
J Paterson - Experienced Ship's Anchor.
G Evans - Relatively inexperienced but had proven himself with Reading prior to us signing him. Injuries seem to have stalled his progress.
M Bennett - An experienced pro by this point, coming off the back of his best ever season.
L Sibley - Youngster. Flourished later in that very season. Problems establishing himself under subsequent managers.
 > (Marriott, 58) - Relatively experienced striker. Hot property at the time but couldn't be arsed
D Holmes - Experienced midfielder. Nothing else to say
M Whittaker - Youngster. A later developer than some others but to suggest he's been damaged by playing in this game is laughable - look at him now!
 > (Mitchell-Lawson, 70) - Youngster. Liked him, but at no point did he really look Championship standard IMO.
Unused subs
K Roos
R Keogh
T Lawrence
J Knight
Only really 5 players (if including Bird) you could call a youngster and/or making their first forays into men's football and I can't see any evidence that any of that team were in the slightest bit 'damaged' from the experience tbh. Cocu knew what he was doing with them.

Warne's version of 'ready' is different to others'. What Warne says is correct... They aren't ready to be first team regulars. However, he completely gametimethe very important developmental requirement of giving them first team experience. Firstly, experience in our first team informs other clubs the player is ready for first team football lower down in the pyramid, opening doors for loans. Secondly, it's the only opportunity to see if they are actually ready for the first team or not. Thirdly, it motivates them yo push harder for a more regular role in the first team.
Springett wasn't even at upper L1 level when he joined us last season, but he was still given gametime in the PL with Norwich before his loan. You could argue it was those few first team games which led to us wanting him on loan.
Robinson was given minutes in the Championship, yet hasn't set foot on the pitch in L1.
Thompson played a significant amount of football in a Championship side which would have finished 17th in the Championship if not for points deducted. He was limited to just 190 minutes in League 1 last season.

Warne's version of 'ready' is different to others'. What Warne says is correct... They aren't ready to be first team regulars. However, he completely gametimethe very important developmental requirement of giving them first team experience. Firstly, experience in our first team informs other clubs the player is ready for first team football lower down in the pyramid, opening doors for loans. Secondly, it's the only opportunity to see if they are actually ready for the first team or not. Thirdly, it motivates them yo push harder for a more regular role in the first team.
Springett wasn't even at upper L1 level when he joined us last season, but he was still given gametime in the PL with Norwich before his loan. You could argue it was those few first team games which led to us wanting him on loan.
Robinson was given minutes in the Championship, yet hasn't set foot on the pitch in L1.
Thompson played a significant amount of football in a Championship side which would have finished 17th in the Championship if not for points deducted. He was limited to just 190 minutes in League 1 last season.

Where have I stated I believe Warne is lying to us? I actually believe he's telling the truth - he believes the U21s aren't good enough for the first team.
What I disagree on is his judgement on their ability and most importantly, how they should be introduced to the first team.
Warne cited Chesterfield as a reason to to use Robinson in the first team. A side who were 3rd, behind a side curenelty top of L2 and another who are in the Playoffs. They would give most L1 sides a tough game.
Warne has referred to 'trust' a few times. What he actually means by this is he only wants to sue players who are st least top half L1 quality (in his opinion), and won't trust them if they are below that level. He needs to trust the player not to make a mistake which could cost the team points (and Warne's job)
To develop players, a manager needs to trust his players. They need to have faith in the process, where youngsters will make mistakes, but improve as a result.
The academy was buzzing when Lampard was manager. He showed a serious interest in the youngsters, watched a lot of the games, knew their names, drafted a high number of them into training and gave them minutes on the pitch. He even trusted Bird to make his first league start in an important gane against Villa and called Knight up to the squad for the Playoffs.
Warne couldn't even give the correct score or name the hattrick scorer from the game he watched just a few hours earlier. You trust his judgement on if a player should or shouldn't be given a few minutes of action in the first team?

Where have I stated I believe Warne is lying to us? I actually believe he's telling the truth - he believes the U21s aren't good enough for the first team.
What I disagree on is his judgement on their ability and most importantly, how they should be introduced to the first team.
Warne cited Chesterfield as a reason to to use Robinson in the first team. A side who were 3rd, behind a side curenelty top of L2 and another who are in the Playoffs. They would give most L1 sides a tough game.
Warne has referred to 'trust' a few times. What he actually means by this is he only wants to sue players who are st least top half L1 quality (in his opinion), and won't trust them if they are below that level. He needs to trust the player not to make a mistake which could cost the team points (and Warne's job)
To develop players, a manager needs to trust his players. They need to have faith in the process, where youngsters will make mistakes, but improve as a result.
The academy was buzzing when Lampard was manager. He showed a serious interest in the youngsters, watched a lot of the games, knew their names, drafted a high number of them into training and gave them minutes on the pitch. He even trusted Bird to make his first league start in an important gane against Villa and called Knight up to the squad for the Playoffs.
Warne couldn't even give the correct score or name the hattrick scorer from the game he watched just a few hours earlier. You trust his judgement on if a player should or shouldn't be given a few minutes of action in the first team?

I’ve been saying for a while now, Gill at LB is one of the best in the country. 

Where have I stated I believe Warne is lying to us? I actually believe he's telling the truth - he believes the U21s aren't good enough for the first team.
What I disagree on is his judgement on their ability and most importantly, how they should be introduced to the first team.
Warne cited Chesterfield as a reason to to use Robinson in the first team. A side who were 3rd, behind a side curenelty top of L2 and another who are in the Playoffs. They would give most L1 sides a tough game.
Warne has referred to 'trust' a few times. What he actually means by this is he only wants to sue players who are st least top half L1 quality (in his opinion), and won't trust them if they are below that level. He needs to trust the player not to make a mistake which could cost the team points (and Warne's job)
To develop players, a manager needs to trust his players. They need to have faith in the process, where youngsters will make mistakes, but improve as a result.
The academy was buzzing when Lampard was manager. He showed a serious interest in the youngsters, watched a lot of the games, knew their names, drafted a high number of them into training and gave them minutes on the pitch. He even trusted Bird to make his first league start in an important gane against Villa and called Knight up to the squad for the Playoffs.
Warne couldn't even give the correct score or name the hattrick scorer from the game he watched just a few hours earlier. You trust his judgement on if a player should or shouldn't be given a few minutes of action in the first team?

Warne's version of 'ready' is different to others'. What Warne says is correct... They aren't ready to be first team regulars. However, he completely gametimethe very important developmental requirement of giving them first team experience. Firstly, experience in our first team informs other clubs the player is ready for first team football lower down in the pyramid, opening doors for loans. Secondly, it's the only opportunity to see if they are actually ready for the first team or not. Thirdly, it motivates them yo push harder for a more regular role in the first team.
Springett wasn't even at upper L1 level when he joined us last season, but he was still given gametime in the PL with Norwich before his loan. You could argue it was those few first team games which led to us wanting him on loan.
Robinson was given minutes in the Championship, yet hasn't set foot on the pitch in L1.
Thompson played a significant amount of football in a Championship side which would have finished 17th in the Championship if not for points deducted. He was limited to just 190 minutes in League 1 last season.

Where have I stated I believe Warne is lying to us? I actually believe he's telling the truth - he believes the U21s aren't good enough for the first team.
What I disagree on is his judgement on their ability and most importantly, how they should be introduced to the first team.
Warne cited Chesterfield as a reason to to use Robinson in the first team. A side who were 3rd, behind a side curenelty top of L2 and another who are in the Playoffs. They would give most L1 sides a tough game.
Warne has referred to 'trust' a few times. What he actually means by this is he only wants to sue players who are st least top half L1 quality (in his opinion), and won't trust them if they are below that level. He needs to trust the player not to make a mistake which could cost the team points (and Warne's job)
To develop players, a manager needs to trust his players. They need to have faith in the process, where youngsters will make mistakes, but improve as a result.
The academy was buzzing when Lampard was manager. He showed a serious interest in the youngsters, watched a lot of the games, knew their names, drafted a high number of them into training and gave them minutes on the pitch. He even trusted Bird to make his first league start in an important gane against Villa and called Knight up to the squad for the Playoffs.
Warne couldn't even give the correct score or name the hattrick scorer from the game he watched just a few hours earlier. You trust his judgement on if a player should or shouldn't be given a few minutes of action in the first team?

Warne's version of 'ready' is different to others'. What Warne says is correct... They aren't ready to be first team regulars. However, he completely gametimethe very important developmental requirement of giving them first team experience. Firstly, experience in our first team informs other clubs the player is ready for first team football lower down in the pyramid, opening doors for loans. Secondly, it's the only opportunity to see if they are actually ready for the first team or not. Thirdly, it motivates them yo push harder for a more regular role in the first team.
Springett wasn't even at upper L1 level when he joined us last season, but he was still given gametime in the PL with Norwich before his loan. You could argue it was those few first team games which led to us wanting him on loan.
Robinson was given minutes in the Championship, yet hasn't set foot on the pitch in L1.
Thompson played a significant amount of football in a Championship side which would have finished 17th in the Championship if not for points deducted. He was limited to just 190 minutes in League 1 last season.

Warne's version of 'ready' is different to others'. What Warne says is correct... They aren't ready to be first team regulars. However, he completely gametimethe very important developmental requirement of giving them first team experience. Firstly, experience in our first team informs other clubs the player is ready for first team football lower down in the pyramid, opening doors for loans. Secondly, it's the only opportunity to see if they are actually ready for the first team or not. Thirdly, it motivates them yo push harder for a more regular role in the first team.
Springett wasn't even at upper L1 level when he joined us last season, but he was still given gametime in the PL with Norwich before his loan. You could argue it was those few first team games which led to us wanting him on loan.
Robinson was given minutes in the Championship, yet hasn't set foot on the pitch in L1.
Thompson played a significant amount of football in a Championship side which would have finished 17th in the Championship if not for points deducted. He was limited to just 190 minutes in League 1 last season.

I want him to be successful as that means the club is being successful too. Everything Warne says he wants, sounds like everything I want to see too. I go to every game thinking this will finally be the game where everything clicks into place. However, we're now moving on to game 56 under Warne...
 
When I look at the short term target of promotion, and I currently struggle to see how we'll achieve it. The results aren't sustainable due to the style of play. 7 of our 14 league goals have come directly or indirectly from set pieces, and we've created very few good chances from open play, and have been fortunate that the ball has landed at Waghorn's feet from Washington/Mendez-Laing shots. Take 'luck' out of the equation and we're currently a bottom half side.
Many point towards injuries as a problem, but these are partly self-inflicted due to style of play and intensity of training. If coached well, the players who come into the side will be able to play the same style of football as the first choice(s). The excuse given suggests we can only play as Warne intends when Bird and Ward are fit. Warne wants runners in midfield (which excludes Hourihane), only used Rooney and Thompson when others were injured.
 
I also look at the long term future of the club. All around me in the South Stand I hear people complaining about the quality of football on show. These are mostly Season Ticket Holders. If they're contemplating not going next season, your casual match goer will give up much sooner. I'm currently expecting a big drop in attendances and match receipts next season, with that financial impact hurting the club further.
I see no serious effort to work with the academy. He doesn't know who they are, even when he attends the game and one of the payers scores a hattrick. Thompson and Rooney have only been used because Warne 'didn't have anyone else'. He openly stated he had no-one other than Smith and Hourihane as an option in the middle, despite Thompson being an unused sub and impressing in pre-season (out of position). What chance do the best of the U21s have? How does that motivate them to push harder for a shot in the first team? He hasn't given any minutes in the league to any player not already viewed as part of the first team squad since becoming manager.
Warne's views on introducing youngsters to the first team are outdated, and contradictory to every other top level academy. Take Robinson as a key example. He was given his first taste of league football in the final 10 minutes of a Championship game. Warne recently said he didn't trust him enough to five him games. Hence, why his game time under Warne has been limited to just 45 minutes in the Pizza Cup against L2 opposition. Warne's comments suggest they have to be of L1 standard before they can play a single minute in the League. I wonder how long we would have had to wait to see Bird, Knight, Sibley, Buchanan, Whittaker, Cashin etc if Warne was manager at the time.

This kind of feeds into what I was told this week. Clowes' is fully commiting to the academy, in terms of a (relatively) very high budget. The first team is a (relatively) low budget  with the aim of getting to the Championship as soon as possible.

I'm sure there could be some sort of arrangement with the University of Derby for students to gain some experience

From open play, there isn't much between Hourihane and Bird. Make Sibley the set piece taker instead and he'll probably lead the charts.

I want him to be successful as that means the club is being successful too. Everything Warne says he wants, sounds like everything I want to see too. I go to every game thinking this will finally be the game where everything clicks into place. However, we're now moving on to game 56 under Warne...
 
When I look at the short term target of promotion, and I currently struggle to see how we'll achieve it. The results aren't sustainable due to the style of play. 7 of our 14 league goals have come directly or indirectly from set pieces, and we've created very few good chances from open play, and have been fortunate that the ball has landed at Waghorn's feet from Washington/Mendez-Laing shots. Take 'luck' out of the equation and we're currently a bottom half side.
Many point towards injuries as a problem, but these are partly self-inflicted due to style of play and intensity of training. If coached well, the players who come into the side will be able to play the same style of football as the first choice(s). The excuse given suggests we can only play as Warne intends when Bird and Ward are fit. Warne wants runners in midfield (which excludes Hourihane), only used Rooney and Thompson when others were injured.
 
I also look at the long term future of the club. All around me in the South Stand I hear people complaining about the quality of football on show. These are mostly Season Ticket Holders. If they're contemplating not going next season, your casual match goer will give up much sooner. I'm currently expecting a big drop in attendances and match receipts next season, with that financial impact hurting the club further.
I see no serious effort to work with the academy. He doesn't know who they are, even when he attends the game and one of the payers scores a hattrick. Thompson and Rooney have only been used because Warne 'didn't have anyone else'. He openly stated he had no-one other than Smith and Hourihane as an option in the middle, despite Thompson being an unused sub and impressing in pre-season (out of position). What chance do the best of the U21s have? How does that motivate them to push harder for a shot in the first team? He hasn't given any minutes in the league to any player not already viewed as part of the first team squad since becoming manager.
Warne's views on introducing youngsters to the first team are outdated, and contradictory to every other top level academy. Take Robinson as a key example. He was given his first taste of league football in the final 10 minutes of a Championship game. Warne recently said he didn't trust him enough to five him games. Hence, why his game time under Warne has been limited to just 45 minutes in the Pizza Cup against L2 opposition. Warne's comments suggest they have to be of L1 standard before they can play a single minute in the League. I wonder how long we would have had to wait to see Bird, Knight, Sibley, Buchanan, Whittaker, Cashin etc if Warne was manager at the time.

From open play, there isn't much between Hourihane and Bird. Make Sibley the set piece taker instead and he'll probably lead the charts.

I want him to be successful as that means the club is being successful too. Everything Warne says he wants, sounds like everything I want to see too. I go to every game thinking this will finally be the game where everything clicks into place. However, we're now moving on to game 56 under Warne...
 
When I look at the short term target of promotion, and I currently struggle to see how we'll achieve it. The results aren't sustainable due to the style of play. 7 of our 14 league goals have come directly or indirectly from set pieces, and we've created very few good chances from open play, and have been fortunate that the ball has landed at Waghorn's feet from Washington/Mendez-Laing shots. Take 'luck' out of the equation and we're currently a bottom half side.
Many point towards injuries as a problem, but these are partly self-inflicted due to style of play and intensity of training. If coached well, the players who come into the side will be able to play the same style of football as the first choice(s). The excuse given suggests we can only play as Warne intends when Bird and Ward are fit. Warne wants runners in midfield (which excludes Hourihane), only used Rooney and Thompson when others were injured.
 
I also look at the long term future of the club. All around me in the South Stand I hear people complaining about the quality of football on show. These are mostly Season Ticket Holders. If they're contemplating not going next season, your casual match goer will give up much sooner. I'm currently expecting a big drop in attendances and match receipts next season, with that financial impact hurting the club further.
I see no serious effort to work with the academy. He doesn't know who they are, even when he attends the game and one of the payers scores a hattrick. Thompson and Rooney have only been used because Warne 'didn't have anyone else'. He openly stated he had no-one other than Smith and Hourihane as an option in the middle, despite Thompson being an unused sub and impressing in pre-season (out of position). What chance do the best of the U21s have? How does that motivate them to push harder for a shot in the first team? He hasn't given any minutes in the league to any player not already viewed as part of the first team squad since becoming manager.
Warne's views on introducing youngsters to the first team are outdated, and contradictory to every other top level academy. Take Robinson as a key example. He was given his first taste of league football in the final 10 minutes of a Championship game. Warne recently said he didn't trust him enough to five him games. Hence, why his game time under Warne has been limited to just 45 minutes in the Pizza Cup against L2 opposition. Warne's comments suggest they have to be of L1 standard before they can play a single minute in the League. I wonder how long we would have had to wait to see Bird, Knight, Sibley, Buchanan, Whittaker, Cashin etc if Warne was manager at the time.

From open play, there isn't much between Hourihane and Bird. Make Sibley the set piece taker instead and he'll probably lead the charts.

I want him to be successful as that means the club is being successful too. Everything Warne says he wants, sounds like everything I want to see too. I go to every game thinking this will finally be the game where everything clicks into place. However, we're now moving on to game 56 under Warne...
 
When I look at the short term target of promotion, and I currently struggle to see how we'll achieve it. The results aren't sustainable due to the style of play. 7 of our 14 league goals have come directly or indirectly from set pieces, and we've created very few good chances from open play, and have been fortunate that the ball has landed at Waghorn's feet from Washington/Mendez-Laing shots. Take 'luck' out of the equation and we're currently a bottom half side.
Many point towards injuries as a problem, but these are partly self-inflicted due to style of play and intensity of training. If coached well, the players who come into the side will be able to play the same style of football as the first choice(s). The excuse given suggests we can only play as Warne intends when Bird and Ward are fit. Warne wants runners in midfield (which excludes Hourihane), only used Rooney and Thompson when others were injured.
 
I also look at the long term future of the club. All around me in the South Stand I hear people complaining about the quality of football on show. These are mostly Season Ticket Holders. If they're contemplating not going next season, your casual match goer will give up much sooner. I'm currently expecting a big drop in attendances and match receipts next season, with that financial impact hurting the club further.
I see no serious effort to work with the academy. He doesn't know who they are, even when he attends the game and one of the payers scores a hattrick. Thompson and Rooney have only been used because Warne 'didn't have anyone else'. He openly stated he had no-one other than Smith and Hourihane as an option in the middle, despite Thompson being an unused sub and impressing in pre-season (out of position). What chance do the best of the U21s have? How does that motivate them to push harder for a shot in the first team? He hasn't given any minutes in the league to any player not already viewed as part of the first team squad since becoming manager.
Warne's views on introducing youngsters to the first team are outdated, and contradictory to every other top level academy. Take Robinson as a key example. He was given his first taste of league football in the final 10 minutes of a Championship game. Warne recently said he didn't trust him enough to five him games. Hence, why his game time under Warne has been limited to just 45 minutes in the Pizza Cup against L2 opposition. Warne's comments suggest they have to be of L1 standard before they can play a single minute in the League. I wonder how long we would have had to wait to see Bird, Knight, Sibley, Buchanan, Whittaker, Cashin etc if Warne was manager at the time.

I want him to be successful as that means the club is being successful too. Everything Warne says he wants, sounds like everything I want to see too. I go to every game thinking this will finally be the game where everything clicks into place. However, we're now moving on to game 56 under Warne...
 
When I look at the short term target of promotion, and I currently struggle to see how we'll achieve it. The results aren't sustainable due to the style of play. 7 of our 14 league goals have come directly or indirectly from set pieces, and we've created very few good chances from open play, and have been fortunate that the ball has landed at Waghorn's feet from Washington/Mendez-Laing shots. Take 'luck' out of the equation and we're currently a bottom half side.
Many point towards injuries as a problem, but these are partly self-inflicted due to style of play and intensity of training. If coached well, the players who come into the side will be able to play the same style of football as the first choice(s). The excuse given suggests we can only play as Warne intends when Bird and Ward are fit. Warne wants runners in midfield (which excludes Hourihane), only used Rooney and Thompson when others were injured.
 
I also look at the long term future of the club. All around me in the South Stand I hear people complaining about the quality of football on show. These are mostly Season Ticket Holders. If they're contemplating not going next season, your casual match goer will give up much sooner. I'm currently expecting a big drop in attendances and match receipts next season, with that financial impact hurting the club further.
I see no serious effort to work with the academy. He doesn't know who they are, even when he attends the game and one of the payers scores a hattrick. Thompson and Rooney have only been used because Warne 'didn't have anyone else'. He openly stated he had no-one other than Smith and Hourihane as an option in the middle, despite Thompson being an unused sub and impressing in pre-season (out of position). What chance do the best of the U21s have? How does that motivate them to push harder for a shot in the first team? He hasn't given any minutes in the league to any player not already viewed as part of the first team squad since becoming manager.
Warne's views on introducing youngsters to the first team are outdated, and contradictory to every other top level academy. Take Robinson as a key example. He was given his first taste of league football in the final 10 minutes of a Championship game. Warne recently said he didn't trust him enough to five him games. Hence, why his game time under Warne has been limited to just 45 minutes in the Pizza Cup against L2 opposition. Warne's comments suggest they have to be of L1 standard before they can play a single minute in the League. I wonder how long we would have had to wait to see Bird, Knight, Sibley, Buchanan, Whittaker, Cashin etc if Warne was manager at the time.

Based on career goals and assists:
1. Hourihane - 1 per 229 mins
2. Embleton - 1 per 250 mins
3. Sibley - 1 per 322 mins
4. Bird - 1 per 764 mins
5. Smith - 1 per 906 mins
6. Fornah - 1 per 1116 mins
7. Thompson - 1 per 3054 mins
When looking at only recent seasons (21/22 onwards) and excluding games played in defence:
1. Embleton - 1 per 189
2. Hourihane - 1 per 238 mins
3. Sibley - 1 per 401 mins
4. Bird - 1 per 546 mins
5. Fornah - 1 per 1022 mins
6. Smith - 1 per 1061 mins
7. Thompson - 1 per 2970 mins