Ghost of Clough

From the Fan Forum, Academy talk started at 14:30 and lasted around 10 minutes.
Q1: Pathway - Wants more through the academy as it means a larger part of the budget goes towards. Talks with other staff regularly regarding the academy. Attended an U21 game earlier that day, didn't know the score, and didn't know the name of the player who scored the hattrick (Weston). He spoke about the upcoming EFL Trophy game against Lincoln and giving academy players game time, but then left DBrown and DRobinson on the bench, bringing only Radcliffe on in the 79th minute. He also said he has always brought players through at other clubs, despite only 3 league players in 6 years Rotherham, with 2 sold before they even established themselves.
Q2: Watching U18/21 games - says he has watched them, even specifies he watches U21 games on Saturdays prior to first team games, even though it's actually the U18s (U21s had only had 2 Saturday games in the past 2 seasons). U21s regularly train with the first team. Buxton feeds him information on who is playing well, and suggested it's Buxton who helps choose who should step into first team training.
Q3: Use of academy - doesn't regret the lack of academy use last season. Says his mistake was not signing players in the January window. Felt no academy players weren't any who were "strong enough to come in". He thinks it's dropping players in to the slaughter rather than viewing it as a key part in their development. His general viewpoint is that a player has to be top half League 1 standard just to get an opportunity in the first team. He highlighted DRobinson struggling vs Chesterfield in pre-season, ignoring how their squad is good enough to be challenging for promotion in League 2 - several players struggled against Crewe over our 2 games agaisnt them.

A few points I would like to pick you up on, but I'll comment on the 3 big ones.
Whilst we may have produced the likes of Hughes and Hendrick prior to our increase academy spending, how many other league players did we produce? Between the U18 intakes in 2008 and 2015 we have produced: Hendrick (2008), Hughes (2011), Bennett, Hanson, Rawson (all 2012), Lowe, Guy, Vernam, Zanzala (all 2013), Kellan Gordon, MacDonald (both 2014)
As you can see, that's only 1 player of significant value every other year, sometimes not even producing a single league level player.
With the increased spending, we achieve greater consisitency - higher number of league level players, and even the bad years produce players of significant value: Bogle (2016), JBrown, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Whittaker (all 2017), Cashin, Ebosele**, ABrown*, Sibley, LThompson, Stretton (all 2018), Delap (2019), Gordon, Williams (2020), etc...
*Some may argue Serie A is a higher level of football than League 2 or higher
**Technically not league football either, but just transferred to Gent for £3.5m
Reduced expenditure on the academy means the best prospects will almost certainly be snapped up by Cat 1 clubs, and because of the reduced training hours, the players we do retain aren't as developed as they otherwise could have been under a Cat 1 academy. 
  Perhaps because it planning for the long term future and not immediate results? No one is saying the academy players should be thrust into the first team and play regularly. It's just one off games or helping to see the last 15 minutes of games out, especially when 2 or 3 goals up. It gives a clearer indication of how far off regular first team football they are than U21 football ever will. If they aren't ready for our first team, those experiences will help them earn loan moves out so they can progress as quickly as possible.
  You've taken this comment completely out of context. The point made wasn't that Warne has never given youth an opportunity at Rotherham, but that he has no experience in doing so because of their youth setup. It's like going down to your local pub side and questioning why they haven't developed any England internationals. At no point in his career has Warne been at a club where it is expected to develop youngsters, so it's unsurprising that his view on bringing players through is different to other Cat 1 clubs, especially those outside of the Premier League. Rooney trusted Thompson to play in a Championship squad, accumulating 1611 minutes on the pitch. Despite being in a league below, and being in the first team squad longer than just a few months, Warne has so far only given him 792 minutes across all competitions. It doesn't give much hope to those further behind him in the pecking order.
Sunderland gave a 16 year old Bali Mumba 2 consecutive starts in League 1, before loaning him out to a National League North side towards the end of the season.

A few points I would like to pick you up on, but I'll comment on the 3 big ones.
Whilst we may have produced the likes of Hughes and Hendrick prior to our increase academy spending, how many other league players did we produce? Between the U18 intakes in 2008 and 2015 we have produced: Hendrick (2008), Hughes (2011), Bennett, Hanson, Rawson (all 2012), Lowe, Guy, Vernam, Zanzala (all 2013), Kellan Gordon, MacDonald (both 2014)
As you can see, that's only 1 player of significant value every other year, sometimes not even producing a single league level player.
With the increased spending, we achieve greater consisitency - higher number of league level players, and even the bad years produce players of significant value: Bogle (2016), JBrown, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Whittaker (all 2017), Cashin, Ebosele**, ABrown*, Sibley, LThompson, Stretton (all 2018), Delap (2019), Gordon, Williams (2020), etc...
*Some may argue Serie A is a higher level of football than League 2 or higher
**Technically not league football either, but just transferred to Gent for £3.5m
Reduced expenditure on the academy means the best prospects will almost certainly be snapped up by Cat 1 clubs, and because of the reduced training hours, the players we do retain aren't as developed as they otherwise could have been under a Cat 1 academy. 
  Perhaps because it planning for the long term future and not immediate results? No one is saying the academy players should be thrust into the first team and play regularly. It's just one off games or helping to see the last 15 minutes of games out, especially when 2 or 3 goals up. It gives a clearer indication of how far off regular first team football they are than U21 football ever will. If they aren't ready for our first team, those experiences will help them earn loan moves out so they can progress as quickly as possible.
  You've taken this comment completely out of context. The point made wasn't that Warne has never given youth an opportunity at Rotherham, but that he has no experience in doing so because of their youth setup. It's like going down to your local pub side and questioning why they haven't developed any England internationals. At no point in his career has Warne been at a club where it is expected to develop youngsters, so it's unsurprising that his view on bringing players through is different to other Cat 1 clubs, especially those outside of the Premier League. Rooney trusted Thompson to play in a Championship squad, accumulating 1611 minutes on the pitch. Despite being in a league below, and being in the first team squad longer than just a few months, Warne has so far only given him 792 minutes across all competitions. It doesn't give much hope to those further behind him in the pecking order.
Sunderland gave a 16 year old Bali Mumba 2 consecutive starts in League 1, before loaning him out to a National League North side towards the end of the season.

Like being 3-0 up, 75 minutes on the clock, and having used only 1 sub, with Robinson and Weston both on the bench. By the end of the game, we use only 3 out of 5 subs and leave both Robinson and Weston on the bench. Just like that?

Warne's approach is out of touch with how every other Cat 1 club operates, especially those not in the PL. Warne's "truly ready" is when they're top half L1 standard and is extremely unlikely to use them, even for a handful of minutes at the end of games.
Even youngsters on the fringe of the first team don't get in the side until we have a mini injury crisis.
Thompson - barely used last season. Was in fantastic form in pre-season, but was only used when season proper began, then only given a start when we were down to just 2 other CMs (Bird injured and before Fornah/Embleton signed)
Rooney - Not even used in the League Cup, only started when both RWBs were injured, Bradley was in the worst form of his career, and before we signed Nyambe.
Then there are our best U21 prospects such as DRobinson who aren't even used in the cups or brought on when 2 or 3 goals up with a few mins to play.
EFL Trophy  - left on the bench for the 2-0 win over Lincoln
League Cup - left on the bench in a dismal performance against Blackpool
FA Cup - not used in either tie
Carlisle - 2-0
Barnsley - 3-0
Same for Weston. After scoring and assisted on his debut, he was an unused sub in the following 2 games before dropping out of the squad completely. 3-0 up vs Barnsley is a good opportunity to gain some experience and certainly better than watching from the bench. 3-1 down to Crewe was another chance for him to help the team get something from the game.

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

Not far off full strength, but Davidson and Osayande are the main absentees, presumably through injury. 
Looks like 442:
JThompson
Perry   Cox   KRobinson   Gough
McAndrew   Allen   Hawkins   Osong
DBrown   Wheeldon

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

We've been a class above all game. We've crrated several chances, whilst I cant even recall Bolton having a shot

It was Malachi Sharpe (U15), James Scanlon (U14) and Sekou Kaba (U14)

We've been a class above all game. We've crrated several chances, whilst I cant even recall Bolton having a shot

Not far off full strength, but Davidson and Osayande are the main absentees, presumably through injury. 
Looks like 442:
JThompson
Perry   Cox   KRobinson   Gough
McAndrew   Allen   Hawkins   Osong
DBrown   Wheeldon

You're judging him on a 'one off game', where Crewe were determined to cause an upset. The Crewe manager doesn't even deem him good enough to be a regular starter in League 2. What makes you think he can have a greater role for us than at Crewe?
A big part of us struggling to break sides down is a lack of players on the pitch who can create in the middle of the pitch from open play. Smith, Fornah and Hourihane are poor at that, which is why it's important we sign someone who can. 

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

Wildsmith
Nyambe   Nelson   Cashin   Forsyth
Fornah   Hourihane
Wilson   Sibley   Mendez-Laing
Collins
 
Subs: Vickers, Bradley, Ward, DRobinson, Barkhuizen, Waghorn, John-Jules

In my opinion, the criticism of Warne is fully deserved. The results are only just acceptable; the standard of play is sometimes good, but often poor; a couple of players aside, his signings are average at best; his use of the academy is awful; management of players fitness and doing his best to keep them injury free is shockingly bad.
However, there are enough positive signs to keep me clinging to the hope that he can take the club where it needs to be. Other people have different opinions, including those who don't think he is capable of improving, so think it's best to part ways now. That's their justified opinion.
A united club isn't one where the manager comes out with snide remarks, pushing some fans even further away. He should be doing everything he can to prove them wrong and get them back on board. Your comments are just as bad because they're divisive and you gain absolutely nothing from it

Except he was doing this week in, week out for our academy for a long while. He came into the first team and because he wasn't immediately doing it for us there, a section of the fan base were straight on his back.
Morgan is a lovely, quiet guy - he did a lot of voluntary work with DCCT for example. He was hurt by the boo boys and it took him a while to recover his confidence. 
I hope he's a lesson learned for some of our brain dead fans, but I doubt it.
 

Warne's approach is out of touch with how every other Cat 1 club operates, especially those not in the PL. Warne's "truly ready" is when they're top half L1 standard and is extremely unlikely to use them, even for a handful of minutes at the end of games.
Even youngsters on the fringe of the first team don't get in the side until we have a mini injury crisis.
Thompson - barely used last season. Was in fantastic form in pre-season, but was only used when season proper began, then only given a start when we were down to just 2 other CMs (Bird injured and before Fornah/Embleton signed)
Rooney - Not even used in the League Cup, only started when both RWBs were injured, Bradley was in the worst form of his career, and before we signed Nyambe.
Then there are our best U21 prospects such as DRobinson who aren't even used in the cups or brought on when 2 or 3 goals up with a few mins to play.
EFL Trophy  - left on the bench for the 2-0 win over Lincoln
League Cup - left on the bench in a dismal performance against Blackpool
FA Cup - not used in either tie
Carlisle - 2-0
Barnsley - 3-0
Same for Weston. After scoring and assisted on his debut, he was an unused sub in the following 2 games before dropping out of the squad completely. 3-0 up vs Barnsley is a good opportunity to gain some experience and certainly better than watching from the bench. 3-1 down to Crewe was another chance for him to help the team get something from the game.

Scored 2 in 2 on Scotland U19 duty last week and has 3 goals in 5 games (goal every 86 mins) in the U18 PL.

Warne's approach is out of touch with how every other Cat 1 club operates, especially those not in the PL. Warne's "truly ready" is when they're top half L1 standard and is extremely unlikely to use them, even for a handful of minutes at the end of games.
Even youngsters on the fringe of the first team don't get in the side until we have a mini injury crisis.
Thompson - barely used last season. Was in fantastic form in pre-season, but was only used when season proper began, then only given a start when we were down to just 2 other CMs (Bird injured and before Fornah/Embleton signed)
Rooney - Not even used in the League Cup, only started when both RWBs were injured, Bradley was in the worst form of his career, and before we signed Nyambe.
Then there are our best U21 prospects such as DRobinson who aren't even used in the cups or brought on when 2 or 3 goals up with a few mins to play.
EFL Trophy  - left on the bench for the 2-0 win over Lincoln
League Cup - left on the bench in a dismal performance against Blackpool
FA Cup - not used in either tie
Carlisle - 2-0
Barnsley - 3-0
Same for Weston. After scoring and assisted on his debut, he was an unused sub in the following 2 games before dropping out of the squad completely. 3-0 up vs Barnsley is a good opportunity to gain some experience and certainly better than watching from the bench. 3-1 down to Crewe was another chance for him to help the team get something from the game.