You are a legend Mr Clowes. Now, please plan for the next stage

[Poynton ram]

24 minutes ago, Gabby'sThighs said:

Kenny Miller? Utter waste of money. Him and Robbie Earnshaw - £5.75m, 5 league goals between them, and we made a loss on both players!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–08_Derby_County_F.C._season#In

That list of incoming players is a horrorshow... can't see how anyone could do worse.
 

Only good thing about that season was home attendances, averaging over 32k according to wiki

[MadAmster]

20 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not sure why the division that the team is in would make any difference to the value of the ground?

Could only see this being relevant if there were clauses in the lease that meant the rent was increased if the club was promoted.

Rent? Lease? News to me. Could you tell me who is renting to whom, please? I thought David Clowes set up a company and that company bought both the ground and the club. Do you mean DC's company is paying rent to DC's company?

We'll get better gates in the SBC and constant full houses in the PL. That makes the ground a more profitable entity. Even more so when you take account of the ticket prices likely being higher. I am of the opinion that a more profitable stadium would be worth more.

Edited December 13, 2023 by MadAmster

[Crewton]

41 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Rent? Lease? News to me. Could you tell me who is renting to whom, please? I thought David Clowes set up a company and that company bought both the ground and the club. Do you mean DC's company is paying rent to DC's company?

We'll get better gates in the SBC and constant full houses in the PL. That makes the ground a more profitable entity. Even more so when you take account of the ticket prices likely being higher. I am of the opinion that a more profitable stadium would be worth more.

The 'expert' who based his valuation of PP on Accrington's ground overlooked that!

[MadAmster]

6 minutes ago, Crewton said:

The 'expert' who based his valuation of PP on Accrington's ground overlooked that!

Do tell more...

[Crewton]

54 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Do tell more...

In the first EFL tribunal hearing, that cleared DCFC from the charge of overvaluing Pride Park, the EFL employed an Expert Witness who based his (much lower) valuation on a comparison with Accrington's stadium, assessing PP to be of a similar standard despite never having visited either ground. The fact that DCFC's average attendance was approximately 10x Accrington's didn't feature in his calculations.

[Foreveram]

11 minutes ago, Crewton said:

In the first EFL tribunal hearing, that cleared DCFC from the charge of overvaluing Pride Park, the EFL employed an Expert Witness who based his (much lower) valuation on a comparison with Accrington's stadium, assessing PP to be of a similar standard despite never having visited either ground. The fact that DCFC's average attendance was approximately 10x Accrington's didn't feature in his calculations.

Fairly sure it was Morecambe’s Globe arena not Accrington, similar size though 😂

[MadAmster]

57 minutes ago, Crewton said:

In the first EFL tribunal hearing, that cleared DCFC from the charge of overvaluing Pride Park, the EFL employed an Expert Witness who based his (much lower) valuation on a comparison with Accrington's stadium, assessing PP to be of a similar standard despite never having visited either ground. The fact that DCFC's average attendance was approximately 10x Accrington's didn't feature in his calculations.

Ta.

[Crewton]

27 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Fairly sure it was Morecambe’s Globe arena not Accrington, similar size though 😂

Yes, you're right, it was Morecambe. I knew it was one of those, ahem, "bog standard" stadiums in Lancashire 😉

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

Yes, you're right, it was Morecambe. I knew it was one of those, ahem, "bog standard" stadiums in Lancashire 😉

Old Trafford 

[kevinhectoring]

5 hours ago, MadAmster said:

Rent? Lease? News to me. Could you tell me who is renting to whom, please? I thought David Clowes set up a company and that company bought both the ground and the club. Do you mean DC's company is paying rent to DC's company?

The stadium is still owned by MM’s company. Pretty sure though that Clowes’ property company - Clowes Developments (U.K.) Ltd [CDL] - owns both the club as well as the company that owns the stadium. In other words the club thru CDL pays rent to the stadium owning company, but economically the whole lot sits under CDL

Also pretty sure that CDL is primarily owned by the Clowes Family Trust. This is significant because it means DC is answerable to the next generations for every penny that is swallowed up by our thirsty club: it will understandably make him a cautious and niggardly owner because otherwise he’ll get it in the neck from Aunty Mable

It’s possible to imagine a future sale of the club which involves CDL holding on to the stadium for a period - depends a bit on what the clever tax planners are up to 

[MadAmster]

24 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The stadium is still owned by MM’s company. Pretty sure though that Clowes’ property company - Clowes Developments (U.K.) Ltd [CDL] - owns both the club as well as the company that owns the stadium. In other words the club thru CDL pays rent to the stadium owning company, but economically the whole lot sits under CDL

Also pretty sure that CDL is primarily owned by the Clowes Family Trust. This is significant because it means DC is answerable to the next generations for every penny that is swallowed up by our thirsty club: it will understandably make him a cautious and niggardly owner because otherwise he’ll get it in the neck from Aunty Mable

It’s possible to imagine a future sale of the club which involves CDL holding on to the stadium for a period - depends a bit on what the clever tax planners are up to 

I just Googled "who owns Pride park Stadium?" It came back with Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd and not MMs Gellaw 101.

Google "who owns Derby County Football Club" and it says Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd. Ergo, CD (UK) Ltd owns both the club and the stadium.

That leads me back to my previous question with regard to rent, namely, who is paying rent to whom? Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd to Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd? It would suggest there is no rent unless DC is taking it out of one of his bank accounts and putting it in another. There is also the possibility that the department charged with running the stadium pays rent, via the Nominal Ledger, to the department running the club.... but I see no point in that scenario.

I just checked on Gellaw 101, which I think was the company that owned PP under MM, and it has been dissolved.

Edited December 13, 2023 by MadAmster

[Comrade 86]

25 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The stadium is still owned by MM’s company.

Find that hard to believe since it was dissolved in 2020. Is this another 'Kevfact'? You just seem to be making stuff up and it's all getting a bit weird now 🤷‍♂️

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Find that hard to believe since it was dissolved in 2020. Is this another 'Kevfact'? You just seem to be making stuff up and it's all getting a bit weird now 🤷‍♂️

What was dissolved in 2020? Unlikely to have been Mm’s stadium owning company because it still owned the stadium. And I suspect it still does, because by purchasing the company and not the stadium itself, I’d guess DC avoided paying stamp duty 
 

Anyway, let me know what was dissolved in 2020 so I can understand what you’re saying 

[G STAR RAM]

8 hours ago, MadAmster said:

Rent? Lease? News to me. Could you tell me who is renting to whom, please? I thought David Clowes set up a company and that company bought both the ground and the club. Do you mean DC's company is paying rent to DC's company?

We'll get better gates in the SBC and constant full houses in the PL. That makes the ground a more profitable entity. Even more so when you take account of the ticket prices likely being higher. I am of the opinion that a more profitable stadium would be worth more.

I actually have no idea on the set up.

All I know is that DC purchased Pride Park separately from the club.

My other assumption was that he took the Derby County Football Club Limited out of administration.

The 2 may now be under the same umbrella, I have no idea.

Freehold and leasehold valuations would give different results and, Id imagine, both would be significantly north of your valuation. Just my opinion though. 

[Comrade 86]

44 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

What was dissolved in 2020? Unlikely to have been Mm’s stadium owning company because it still owned the stadium. And I suspect it still does, because by purchasing the company and not the stadium itself, I’d guess DC avoided paying stamp duty 
 

Anyway, let me know what was dissolved in 2020 so I can understand what you’re saying 

My bad, dormant, not dissolved since 2020. To answer your query, here's the last two filings from Gellaw 101. It seems unequivocal. So again, how can a dissolved company retain ownership of Pride Park? Have I searched the wrong firm?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Comrade 86

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, MadAmster said:

I just Googled "who owns Pride park Stadium?" It came back with Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd and not MMs Gellaw 101.

Google "who owns Derby County Football Club" and it says Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd. Ergo, CD (UK) Ltd owns both the club and the stadium.

That leads me back to my previous question with regard to rent, namely, who is paying rent to whom? Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd to Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd? It would suggest there is no rent unless DC is taking it out of one of his bank accounts and putting it in another. There is also the possibility that the department charged with running the stadium pays rent, via the Nominal Ledger, to the department running the club.... but I see no point in that scenario.

I just checked on Gellaw 101, which I think was the company that owned PP under MM, and it has been dissolved.

 

21 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

My bad, dormant, not dissolved since 2020. To answer your query, here's the last two filings from Gellaw 101. It seems unequivocal. So again, how can a dissolved company retain ownership of Pride Park? Have I searched the wrong firm?

As at 30 June 2022 it would appear that the stadium was held in Gellaw Newco 202 Limited.

Cannot see anything filed subsequently that would indicate that the stadium has been moved elsewhere.

[Comrade 86]

12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

As at 30 June 2022 it would appear that the stadium was held in Gellaw Newco 202 Limited.

Cannot see anything filed subsequently that would indicate that the stadium has been moved elsewhere.

My bad. Apologies @kevinhectoring

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, MadAmster said:

I just Googled "who owns Pride park Stadium?" It came back with Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd and not MMs Gellaw 101.

Google "who owns Derby County Football Club" and it says Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd. Ergo, CD (UK) Ltd owns both the club and the stadium.

That leads me back to my previous question with regard to rent, namely, who is paying rent to whom? Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd to Clowes Developments (UK) Ltd? It would suggest there is no rent unless DC is taking it out of one of his bank accounts and putting it in another. There is also the possibility that the department charged with running the stadium pays rent, via the Nominal Ledger, to the department running the club.... but I see no point in that scenario.

I just checked on Gellaw 101, which I think was the company that owned PP under MM, and it has been dissolved.

This below is from the clowes announcement re the stadium purchase. It suggests they bought MM’s company, not the stadium itself (tho the wording is a bit strange)
 

If that’s right and the stadium owning company was later dissolved (in late 2022?), then the stadium would presumably have been hived up to Clowes Dev (U.K.) Ltd after the purchase. That would make sense because  at that stage the transaction was intra group so free of taxes  

The lease that was in place when the stadium owning company was purchased would simply have ceased to exist when the lessee and lessor became the same person (ie on the hive up). So no rental payable

 

Clowes Developments would like to formally thank all parties involved in the deals to date.  Collectively we have paved the way for a positive outcome for the future of Derby County Football Club.  We would like to take the opportunity to thank our respective teams of professional advisors who have helped us to successfully purchase the Company that owned Pride Park Stadium, secure the loan agreement and confirm the submission of a bid to purchase the Club.

[kevinhectoring]

45 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

My bad, dormant, not dissolved since 2020. To answer your query, here's the last two filings from Gellaw 101. It seems unequivocal. So again, how can a dissolved company retain ownership of Pride Park? Have I searched the wrong firm?

See my post above  Looks like they purchased the stadium owning company and the stadium was later transferred to CDUKltd

[tinman]

Somebody just look on the land registry and pay the couple of quid to find out who owns it.