You are a legend Mr Clowes. Now, please plan for the next stage

[MadAmster]

14 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I actually have no idea on the set up.

All I know is that DC purchased Pride Park separately from the club.

My other assumption was that he took the Derby County Football Club Limited out of administration.

The 2 may now be under the same umbrella, I have no idea.

Freehold and leasehold valuations would give different results and, Id imagine, both would be significantly north of your valuation. Just my opinion though. 

PP was owned by MM's Gellaw 202 company. DC bought the stadium from them/MM.  He then went about buying the club. Once in Admin, to buy the club he had to negotiate with Quantuma who were running the club for the Courts. Quantuma were charged with getting the best possible deal for the club's creditors. Mr Clowes paid around £28M for the club. That money went to pay off an agreed % of monies owed to the creditors. That is why the 2 deals were separate. It wasn't the same people selling...

DC (UK) Ltd now owns both the club and the Stadium.

Edited December 14, 2023 by MadAmster

[MadAmster]

13 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

As at 30 June 2022 it would appear that the stadium was held in Gellaw Newco 202 Limited.

Cannot see anything filed subsequently that would indicate that the stadium has been moved elsewhere.

One of the many Gellaw companies MM had...

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, MadAmster said:

One of the many Gellaw companies MM had...

The decisions from the EFl proceedings will state beyond doubt which company owned the stadium. I can’t remember 

tbh once the stadium is intra group I don’t really see why it would be transferred up to the main Cduk company. Equally I’d have thought they would put (and hold) the club in a single purpose vehicle below cduk. It gives you more flexibility on ultimate sale. Perhaps there might be tax reasons. You can understand they might want to dissolve all the old MM vehicles tho 
 

It’s not just a theoretical point. If DC were to find that perfect purchaser (the one so many on here seem not to care about !) you could see them agreeing a deal where CDuk hold on to the stadium for a period after the sale of the club 

[G STAR RAM]

4 hours ago, MadAmster said:

PP was owned by MM's Gellaw 202 company. DC bought the stadium from them/MM.  He then went about buying the club. Once in Admin, to buy the club he had to negotiate with Quantuma who were running the club for the Courts. Quantuma were charged with getting the best possible deal for the club's creditors. Mr Clowes paid around £28M for the club. That money went to pay off an agreed % of monies owed to the creditors. That is why the 2 deals were separate. It wasn't the same people selling...

DC (UK) Ltd now owns both the club and the Stadium.

Are you stating facts here or your own guesses?

[G STAR RAM]

48 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The decisions from the EFl proceedings will state beyond doubt which company owned the stadium. I can’t remember 

tbh once the stadium is intra group I don’t really see why it would be transferred up to the main Cduk company. Equally I’d have thought they would put (and hold) the club in a single purpose vehicle below cduk. It gives you more flexibility on ultimate sale. Perhaps there might be tax reasons. You can understand they might want to dissolve all the old MM vehicles tho 
 

It’s not just a theoretical point. If DC were to find that perfect purchaser (the one so many on here seem not to care about !) you could see them agreeing a deal where CDuk hold on to the stadium for a period after the sale of the club 

Not done any great amount of research here, just skimmed through a few bits on Companiee House.

DC set up a company called Derby County (The Rams) Limited. My guess is that the club will end up in there (Memorandum and Articles of Association make references to The FA and EFL).

 

[kevinhectoring]

4 hours ago, MadAmster said:

That is why the 2 deals were separate. It wasn't the same people selling...

The deals were separate because

- Kirchner (plus Rooney and Stretford?) never contemplated buying the stadium (probably because they didn’t have enough cash)

- the transfer of the stadium into friendly hands/ the discharge of the MSD loan was a prerequisite to Kirchner’s acquisition of the club not least because the club had guaranteed the loan

So Dc initially stepped up and bought the stadium in the expectation K would then buy the club. When K encountered a spot of bother DC decided separately he needed to buy the club. 

 

[MadAmster]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

The decisions from the EFl proceedings will state beyond doubt which company owned the stadium. I can’t remember 

tbh once the stadium is intra group I don’t really see why it would be transferred up to the main Cduk company. Equally I’d have thought they would put (and hold) the club in a single purpose vehicle below cduk. It gives you more flexibility on ultimate sale. Perhaps there might be tax reasons. You can understand they might want to dissolve all the old MM vehicles tho 
 

It’s not just a theoretical point. If DC were to find that perfect purchaser (the one so many on here seem not to care about !) you could see them agreeing a deal where CDuk hold on to the stadium for a period after the sale of the club 

They could do that anyway. I've got a few thousand records. I can sell just one without that impacting the others.... DC (UK) Ltd could just sell one asset, the club, and retain ownership of the Stadium.

[MadAmster]

31 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Are you stating facts here or your own guesses?

Facts and extrapolations.

PP was owned by MM's Gellaw 202 company. I had thought it was Gellaw 101 but someone on here corrected me

DC bought the stadium from them/MM. Fact

He then went about buying the club. Fact, he bought the stadium and then went after the club.

Once in Admin, to buy the club he had to negotiate with Quantuma who were running the club for the Courts. Fact. This is what happens with any business in Administration

Quantuma were charged with getting the best possible deal for the club's creditors. Fact. As are all administrator's.

Mr Clowes paid around £28M for the club. Extrapolation based on fact. We know he paid around £50M for the club and the stadium. Depending on the source, he paid £22M/£23M for the ground leaving around £28M for the club.

That money went to pay off an agreed % of monies owed to the creditors. That is why the 2 deals were separate. It wasn't the same people selling... fact. The previous owner of a business in Admin only gets anything if the sum raised from the sale is higher than the sum owed to creditors and to the Admin for their "services".

[MadAmster]

15 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The deals were separate because

- Kirchner (plus Rooney and Stretford?) never contemplated buying the stadium (probably because they didn’t have enough cash)

- the transfer of the stadium into friendly hands/ the discharge of the MSD loan was a prerequisite to Kirchner’s acquisition of the club not least because the club had guaranteed the loan

So Dc initially stepped up and bought the stadium in the expectation K would then buy the club. When K encountered a spot of bother DC decided separately he needed to buy the club. 

 

June 14th, Kirchner pulls out of the deal.

Pride Park. DC dealt with MM/Gellaw. That deal was completed on June 14th.

DCFC. Once Kirchner was out of the running, DC started talks with Quantuma about buying the club and finalised the deal, IIRC, on July 1st.

He dealt with MM/Gellaw as they owned the ground.

Once in Admin MM no longer owned DCFC and therefore DC went via the Admin, Quantuma, as the Law states.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, MadAmster said:

Facts and extrapolations.

PP was owned by MM's Gellaw 202 company. I had thought it was Gellaw 101 but someone on here corrected me

DC bought the stadium from them/MM. Fact

He then went about buying the club. Fact, he bought the stadium and then went after the club.

Once in Admin, to buy the club he had to negotiate with Quantuma who were running the club for the Courts. Fact. This is what happens with any business in Administration

Quantuma were charged with getting the best possible deal for the club's creditors. Fact. As are all administrator's.

Mr Clowes paid around £28M for the club. Extrapolation based on fact. We know he paid around £50M for the club and the stadium. Depending on the source, he paid £22M/£23M for the ground leaving around £28M for the club.

That money went to pay off an agreed % of monies owed to the creditors. That is why the 2 deals were separate. It wasn't the same people selling... fact. The previous owner of a business in Admin only gets anything if the sum raised from the sale is higher than the sum owed to creditors and to the Admin for their "services".

The highlighted part is an important piece of the jigsaw and is not fact.

Clowes Developments purchased the shares of Gellaw Newco 202, so DC did not purchase the ground, he purchased a company that owned the ground and with it a lease to the football club.

Everything would all appear to be under the Clows Trust umbrella but that still doesn't mean that the ground is within the football club.

Whether there is still a lease on the ground is still not known.

Your cost of £50m is also £10m adrift and leads me to believe that, with all due respect, that you don't really have many facts to hand.

Edited December 14, 2023 by G STAR RAM

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, MadAmster said:

They could do that anyway. I've got a few thousand records. I can sell just one without that impacting the others.... DC (UK) Ltd could just sell one asset, the club, and retain ownership of the Stadium.

There’s a bit of a difference between selling a record and selling a football club/stadium. Here’s the thing:

 if you keep the club/ stadium in a special purpose company, then when it comes to selling you can either the shares of the company that owns the asset; or you can sell the asset. Those two transactions have completely different tax implications. 
 

that’s why I said holding the assets in single purpose vehicles beneath CDuk gives added flexibility when it comes to disposal  

 

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, MadAmster said:

June 14th, Kirchner pulls out of the deal.

Pride Park. DC dealt with MM/Gellaw. That deal was completed on June 14th.

DCFC. Once Kirchner was out of the running, DC started talks with Quantuma about buying the club and finalised the deal, IIRC, on July 1st.

He dealt with MM/Gellaw as they owned the ground.

Once in Admin MM no longer owned DCFC and therefore DC went via the Admin, Quantuma, as the Law states.

Not sure what your point is. Your last paragraph misstates the legal position btw

Perhaps your point is that the two transactions were necessary independent  because the owners of the assets were different. I’m not sure that’s right - it’s easy for two separate transactions to be inter conditional. The reason they were separate was because when he bought the stadium he didn’t think he was going to buy the club 

[Gritstone Ram]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

The highlighted part is an important piece of the jigsaw and is not fact.

Clowes Developments purchased the shares of Gellaw Newco 202, so DC did not purchase the ground, he purchased a company that owned the ground and with it a lease to the football club.

Everything would all appear to be under the Clows Trust umbrella but that still doesn't mean that the ground is within the football club.

Whether there is still a lease on the ground is still not known.

Your cost of £50m is also £10m adrift and leads me to believe that, with all due respect, that you don't really have many facts to hand.

Which way is it £10m adrift? £40m or £60m?

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, Gritstone Ram said:

Which way is it £10m adrift? £40m or £60m?

£60m

[kevinhectoring]

5 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

DC set up a company called Derby County (The Rams) Limited. My guess is that the club will end up in there (Memorandum and Articles of Association make references to The FA and EFL).

 

I think that’s a fair prediction. In fact it seems likely the club is already owned by that company. ( I’d guess the Clowes companies don’t make any announcements about intra group transactions. )
Shame about the name ! 

[Caerphilly Ram]

6 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

 

It’s not just a theoretical point. If DC were to find that perfect purchaser (the one so many on here seem not to care about !) you could see them agreeing a deal where CDuk hold on to the stadium for a period after the sale of the club 

This is the bit I don’t get about this whole thread and your own stance in starting it.

What is it that has you so convinced Clowes isn’t the right owner for the club? Is it the reported value of his personal fortune and nothing else? And what is it that makes you certain there is a perfect owner out there that isn’t Clowes? Who are they? Where are they? 
I don’t follow your assertions that Clowes can’t take the club forward and that there must be some wealthy American white knight to swoop in, I find your comment that people on here don’t care as disingenuous to many who are waiting a little longer to see what the progress of the club is under Clowes ownership before deciding whether he is or is not the one to take it forward. 
 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram

[Gritstone Ram]

23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

£60m

Good grief 

[MadAmster]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

The highlighted part is an important piece of the jigsaw and is not fact.

Clowes Developments purchased the shares of Gellaw Newco 202, so DC did not purchase the ground, he purchased a company that owned the ground and with it a lease to the football club.

Everything would all appear to be under the Clows Trust umbrella but that still doesn't mean that the ground is within the football club.

Whether there is still a lease on the ground is still not known.

Your cost of £50m is also £10m adrift and leads me to believe that, with all due respect, that you don't really have many facts to hand.

Pedant. You buy a company you also buy their assets... It's probably not within the football club as CD (UK) own both the club and the ground. 

[MadAmster]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

Not sure what your point is. Your last paragraph misstates the legal position btw

Perhaps your point is that the two transactions were necessary independent  because the owners of the assets were different. I’m not sure that’s right - it’s easy for two separate transactions to be inter conditional. The reason they were separate was because when he bought the stadium he didn’t think he was going to buy the club 

Sure? When a business goes into Administration, the Administrators, in this case Quantuma, are charged with getting the best deal they can for the creditors. Quantuma were the ones who did all the asset selling to keep the club afloat like selling players etc. It was Quantuma that did the deal with CD and noone else.

If I have misunderstood the legal position and what happens in Admin, I would really appreciate it if you could tell me WHAT I've misunderstood, what the real position is and what, if anything, I have got wrong with regard to the role of Administrators.

Thanks in advance.

[MadAmster]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

£60m

source?

According to the DET we're both £5M out

Edited December 14, 2023 by MadAmster