Palestine

[Comrade 86]

12 minutes ago, cstand said:

Nothing to worry about think again

https://www.politico.eu/article/65-police-hurt-violent-protest-berlin-palestine-israel-hamas/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28402882.amp

 

So you'd rather we concern ourselves with the potential for a punch up at a protest than the slaughter of innocent Palestinian men, women and children? 

[cstand]

20 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

So you'd rather we concern ourselves with the potential for a punch up at a protest than the slaughter of innocent Palestinian men, women and children? 

I am concerned about ALL the deaths in this conflict not just Palestinian and the potential for it to escalate into Europe. 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by cstand

[Alph]

14 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

So starting a war wasn’t “forbidden” you just had to find a just reason? Sounds familiar.

I know right. 

Rome was such peaceful state because it was against their religion to take part in any war unless in self preservation. 

Obviously that extended to allies. Allies often offered little benefit to Rome and only reluctantly dragged them into wars with the Carthaginian Empire. 2 wars later and the Carthaginians were in a treaty that left them in ruin. They lost their colonies, their military was restricted and they had to pay tribute to Rome. Pretty similar to where Germany found itself when Hitler became so influential, think?

Some Roman alliances were not only of no benefit but Rome would have to pay them! Support them! And then defend them in disputes with neighbours. But Rome was a democracy. And allowed many provinces local autonomy. Infact the earliest photograph we have is of such a provincial governor.  Tonius Blairius

 

[Alph]

12 minutes ago, cstand said:

I am concerned about ALL the deaths in this conflict not just Palestinian and the potential for it to escalate into Europe. 
 

 

 

Then I thought you'd be supportive or tolerant of the vast majority of protesters calling for a ceasefire and a solution. 

It seems to me that it's mostly people who refuse to ask Israel to stop such as Suella Braverman are the only ones that are focusing on the thugs that tag along. 

How else do you influence the government's to stop supporting what Israel are doing? There is another way to force governments to negotiate. But it's even uglier. 

If there's silence from the public then nothing will change. 

I mean, it won't change anyway and when we do suddenly manage to force a ceasefire on Israel it will be conveniently too late. And Hamas will STILL exist. 

Israel had a huge opportunity on the 7th to make the most of the sympathy. Despite their role in a much longer wider conflict it would have been difficult to paint them a villain to your average Joe. But Netenyahu and is mob are no better than Hamas. They ARE Hamas. But they only have to press buttons to kill Palestinians.

[Comrade 86]

FWIW

https://news.sky.com/video/armistice-day-fighting-reported-as-people-shouting-you-let-your-country-down-try-to-reach-cenotaph-13005276

[Stive Pesley]

So Tommy Robinson and his right wing thug mates have got involved in counter protests and are fighting with the police and chanting "England Til I Die"

I can't work out what their angle is here - counter to what? The peaceful march is an anti-war one. So he's....pro war?

 

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

So Tommy Robinson and his right wing thug mates have got involved in counter protests and are fighting with the police and chanting "England Til I Die"

I can't work out what their angle is here - counter to what? The peaceful march is an anti-war one. So he's....pro war?

 

Nah mate. Loony left plants, pretending to be thick bootboys.

Don't be duped! 🙈

[GboroRam]

44 minutes ago, Alpha said:

 

It seems to me that it's mostly people who refuse to ask Israel to stop such as Suella Braverman are the only ones that are focusing on the thugs that tag along.

There's a certain irony here, posting on a football forum - the iconic activity where thugs tagged along for the violence with no interest in anything else. 

[Alph]

11 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

So Tommy Robinson and his right wing thug mates have got involved in counter protests and are fighting with the police and chanting "England Til I Die"

I can't work out what their angle is here - counter to what? The peaceful march is an anti-war one. So he's....pro war?

 

This made me laugh. I've not watched it but I can only imagine that they answer is freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of expression? 

I wish somebody would tell Stephen, sorry, Tommy I mean, that his country isn't under attack. 

What does "England Til I Die" even mean? What's England to him? 

I know there has to be a balance to everything and we live in times where there is always a justice crusade. But I don't even know what point he's trying to make. 

Their message is "ceasefire" and "free Palestine".... yours is what, Tommy? 

[Tamworthram]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

I know right. 

Rome was such peaceful state because it was against their religion to take part in any war unless in self preservation. 

Obviously that extended to allies. Allies often offered little benefit to Rome and only reluctantly dragged them into wars with the Carthaginian Empire. 2 wars later and the Carthaginians were in a treaty that left them in ruin. They lost their colonies, their military was restricted and they had to pay tribute to Rome. Pretty similar to where Germany found itself when Hitler became so influential, think?

Some Roman alliances were not only of no benefit but Rome would have to pay them! Support them! And then defend them in disputes with neighbours. But Rome was a democracy. And allowed many provinces local autonomy. Infact the earliest photograph we have is of such a provincial governor.  Tonius Blairius

 

Without not wishing to turn this thread into the history channel (this is an interesting debate)I'm not sure I entirely agree. Technically, it may have been against their religion to go to war (I don't know), they made a pretty good job of extending their influence - largely by force I would guess. Wasn't the first Punic war against Carthage triggered by Rome's expansionist policy?

Also, the state may have been a sort of democracy, more than half of the adult population couldn't vote. 

 

[Alph]

54 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Without not wishing to turn this thread into the history channel (this is an interesting debate)I'm not sure I entirely agree. Technically, it may have been against their religion to go to war (I don't know), they made a pretty good job of extending their influence - largely by force I would guess. Wasn't the first Punic war against Carthage triggered by Rome's expansionist policy?

Also, the state may have been a sort of democracy, more than half of the adult population couldn't vote. 

 

Yeah that's what I'm getting at. A peaceful City that never started a war just so happened to become a great empire overthrowing another empire but always justified it with peace and self defence. 

Even the first Punic War. They saw it as a defence. Coming to the aid of the Mamertines (pretty sickening) because they were concerned about Carthaginian expansion into Sicily and Southern Italy.

It's 2023 and we still have nations reaching across the world to find reasons to "defend". One nation in particular frequently finds reasons to go to war or fund conflicts that are "just". Sometimes even fabricating entire events to enter conflict. 

Hitler, Putin.... Has any villain ever started a war that wasn't based on "defence" or "national security". 

I guess it's just our nature. But I wish America had been called out more. And didn't have nations like Britain that will support them even when they're lying and destabilizing regions to suit their imperial goals. 

[cstand]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

Then I thought you'd be supportive or tolerant of the vast majority of protesters calling for a ceasefire and a solution. 

It seems to me that it's mostly people who refuse to ask Israel to stop such as Suella Braverman are the only ones that are focusing on the thugs that tag along. 

How else do you influence the government's to stop supporting what Israel are doing? There is another way to force governments to negotiate. But it's even uglier. 

If there's silence from the public then nothing will change. 

I mean, it won't change anyway and when we do suddenly manage to force a ceasefire on Israel it will be conveniently too late. And Hamas will STILL exist. 

Israel had a huge opportunity on the 7th to make the most of the sympathy. Despite their role in a much longer wider conflict it would have been difficult to paint them a villain to your average Joe. But Netenyahu and is mob are no better than Hamas. They ARE Hamas. But they only have to press buttons to kill Palestinians.

The waving loads of Palestinians flags  in Europe IMO will only play into the hands of Israeli propaganda to keep bombing the crap out of the them. 

The attack on Israel by Hammas was an act of genocide not a terrorist attack so under international law I don’t think there is much any government can realistically do TBH because all countries signed up to this agreement.

Silence is not violence silence stops people from taking sides which ultimately leads to more conflict and more violence. 

The uglier option is not an option unless you want all out war everywhere.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by cstand

[GboroRam]

That's a load of Tottenham, that is. Yeah, a steaming pile of Hotspur.

[cstand]

1 hour ago, cstand said:

The waving loads of Palestinians flags  in Europe IMO will only play into the hands of Israeli propaganda to keep bombing the crap out of the them. 

The attack on Israel by Hammas was an act of genocide not a terrorist attack so under international law I don’t think there is much any government can realistically do TBH because all countries signed up to this agreement.

Silence is not violence silence stops people from taking sides which ultimately leads to more conflict and more violence. 

The uglier option is not an option unless you want all out war everywhere.

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately some people who admit they are bias @Alphawill never understand so a solution will never be found. 
 

Edited November 11, 2023 by cstand

[Alph]

Cuckoo

[cstand]

26 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Cuckoo

I must be doing something right when there is no coherent reply.

Edited November 11, 2023 by cstand

[Alph]

1 hour ago, cstand said:

The waving loads of Palestinians flags  in Europe IMO will only play into the hands of Israeli propaganda to keep bombing the crap out of the them. 

The attack on Israel by Hammas was an act of genocide not a terrorist attack so under international law I don’t think there is much any government can realistically do TBH because all countries signed up to this agreement.

Silence is not violence silence stops people from taking sides which ultimately leads to more conflict and more violence. 

The uglier option is not an option unless you want all out war everywhere.

 

 

 

 

 

The waving of Palestinian flags and the support of Palestine has drawn millions of eyes to the conflict. It's exposed hypocrisy. Belgium deputy PM has called for sanctions. Blinken has started back tracking. Macron has done a 180°. There's more pressure on Israel now than any of their numerous operations (all of which I named and dated) in Gaza and more importantly West Bank. That's the important part too. Your first point is utter nonsense. Israel will keep being Israel regardless of flag waving in Europe. They've never stopped. But when several countries remove embassies it sends a message. Also, Saudi Arabia, the morally bankrupt regime that Israel want to reach, have had to cool relations with Israel due to the regional pressure. But again, you're more upset over protests than what's happening. That is funny. 

There are protests and calls for a general election in Israel. Kind of important. They stand up for dead kids more than you do. You're just crying about protests. 

Your second point..... Wow. Again it takes us back to "it's not occupied land it's disputed land like any other in the world"..... I can't argue with you. It's Netenyahu levels of insanity. I could go and show you exactly what Israel and America have and more importantly haven't signed. Go Google it yourself. Some interesting omissions. 

Your last point. That uglier is not an option. I'm afraid it very much is. I don't support it. But history shows what happens when governments and population have strong differing views. When a powerful military faces a weaker force. It's not beyond any race or religion. I'm not advocating it. I'm telling you it's a fact. The Suffragettes used bombs and Arson. Jews bombed King David Hotel. America funds terrorists groups. We've been over this. Governments, whether foreign or domestic, very rarely surrender to the will of the people if they ask nicely. 

Flag waving in this case is the only peaceful way to show the government what the population think. 

Now, I'm not a big fan of arguing with you because you make such points that I've genuinely not encountered from Israeli Jews. Some of those don't even attempt to appear like they're neutral. And you kind of have to respect that. They just want to be safe and not face what their ancestors have. They wouldn't say disputed land. They'd say occupied land or even land that belongs to them by ancient text. They'd argue why they need to take it. They'd say Gaza is a terrorists breeding ground. Not pretend they give a toss. And they'd vote Netenyahu. 

However a lot of Israeli Jews are protesting. A lot of Jews in the world are calling it exactly like Pro Palestinians. 

But you? You haven't spoken up for Gaza once. Certainly not as much as you've claimed everyone is antisemetic or that Protesters are the major problem here. Earlier you were annoyed that I incited violence against politicians because I edited a post (then didn't reply when I told you what I edited and it can probably be verified by a mod). It seems everything bothers you more than dead people in West Bank or Gaza. 

[Alph]

44 minutes ago, cstand said:

Unfortunately some people who admit they are bias @Alphawill never understand so a solution will never be found. 
 

I answered you. Calm down. 

But I've argued with Zionists before and this is similar. You reach a point where they can't see anything but you as antisemetic, Gaza as a terrorist breeding ground, occupied land as their rightful land by ancient text and fully support Netenyahu. These are the type of people in Netenyahu's party who say that all Palestinians are complicit and an even harder approach should be taken. 

I can't argue with that. That's like arguing against Hamas who want Israel wiped from the map. It's extremes. 

I can't continue to argue with you when you say "disputed land" and keep claiming everyone is motivated by a hatred of Jews. I just have to be like , ok. Whatever. No point trying to convince you. 

@Revposted a video which was pretty balanced. Showed some understanding of Israel's threats. 

I said before, I'm not biased because I'm Arab or Muslim. I'm biased because I see the disproportionate suffering. If somehow balanced was restored and tipped the other way then I'd be supporting Israel's right to exist under Arab threat. 

If I'm anti anything then I'm anti American foreign policy. They're responsible for so much destabilization. Russia too but they're obviously less successful than America at pursuing their goal. 

There's not much more I can say to you now. I think that covers everything and it's become like the nonsense arguments between a Muslim who denies Israel's entire existence and a Zionist Jew. Not as extreme. But you get the gist 

[cstand]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

I answered you. Calm down. 

But I've argued with Zionists before and this is similar. You reach a point where they can't see anything but you as antisemetic, Gaza as a terrorist breeding ground, occupied land as their rightful land by ancient text and fully support Netenyahu. These are the type of people in Netenyahu's party who say that all Palestinians are complicit and an even harder approach should be taken. 

I can't argue with that. That's like arguing against Hamas who want Israel wiped from the map. It's extremes. 

I can't continue to argue with you when you say "disputed land" and keep claiming everyone is motivated by a hatred of Jews. I just have to be like , ok. Whatever. No point trying to convince you. 

@Revposted a video which was pretty balanced. Showed some understanding of Israel's threats. 

I said before, I'm not biased because I'm Arab or Muslim. I'm biased because I see the disproportionate suffering. If somehow balanced was restored and tipped the other way then I'd be supporting Israel's right to exist under Arab threat. 

If I'm anti anything then I'm anti American foreign policy. They're responsible for so much destabilization. Russia too but they're obviously less successful than America at pursuing their goal. 

There's not much more I can say to you now. I think that covers everything and it's become like the nonsense arguments between a Muslim who denies Israel's entire existence and a Zionist Jew. Not as extreme. But you get the gist 

Natasha Hausdorff 5 months prior to the present conflict.

Cambridge union debate.

 

[Ramarena]

9 hours ago, Alpha said:

This made me laugh. I've not watched it but I can only imagine that they answer is freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of expression? 

I wish somebody would tell Stephen, sorry, Tommy I mean, that his country isn't under attack. 

What does "England Til I Die" even mean? What's England to him? 

I know there has to be a balance to everything and we live in times where there is always a justice crusade. But I don't even know what point he's trying to make. 

Their message is "ceasefire" and "free Palestine".... yours is what, Tommy? 

Running away when the cops are about to kettle his fellow travelers…..the pride taxi was the cherry on the cake!