Palestine

[Mostyn6]

if you think that Israel know exactly where Hamas commanders are hiding, yet didn't know an attack was coming, you're very very naive and gullible.

This has all the hallmarks of an inside job, a set up, a trigger-point, collateral damage to instigate and justify a long-planned and desired cleansing of Palestine and it's innocent people.

Alpha (and others) have been keen to point out the Hamas is NOT Palestine, and it is not representative of the wishes of the Palestinian people. Who gives the orders to Hamas?

I know it's a crude reference, but as we are on a football forum, it may be understandable, when that Derby "fan" send Billy Sharp abuse about his dead child, was he representing all of us Derby fans? Should we all have faced the same response as he did? Well, whilst in no way comparable in terms of seriousness, the grouping of Palestinians and treating them as Hamas is very unfair.

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

if you think that Israel know exactly where Hamas commanders are hiding, yet didn't know an attack was coming, you're very very naive and gullible.

This has all the hallmarks of an inside job, a set up, a trigger-point, collateral damage to instigate and justify a long-planned and desired cleansing of Palestine and it's innocent people.

Alpha (and others) have been keen to point out the Hamas is NOT Palestine, and it is not representative of the wishes of the Palestinian people. Who gives the orders to Hamas?

I know it's a crude reference, but as we are on a football forum, it may be understandable, when that Derby "fan" send Billy Sharp abuse about his dead child, was he representing all of us Derby fans? Should we all have faced the same response as he did? Well, whilst in no way comparable in terms of seriousness, the grouping of Palestinians and treating them as Hamas is very unfair.

As far as I can tell, only two 'commanders' are verified as having been killed, amongst the 1000s of civilian casualties. I think I saw that Hamas had actually admitted this, though whether that info remains current, I'm uncertain. What does seem pretty clear though is that none of the true Hamas higher ups are in Gaza, nor have they been for some time. They are now stashed away in Hamas friendly states like Qatar, as reported, without a hint of irony, by the Israeli government themselves. I kind of feel like I need to make a, "well, who are you bombing then!" gif.

Talking of thousands dying, what's left as a career opportunity when even Netanyahu thinks you've lost the plot? Israel’s Heritage Minister, Amichai Eliyahu is now looking for a new position after he mooted dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza as a feasible option. Nope, I'm not even joking:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-disciplines-israeli-minister-who-voiced-openness-hypothetical-nuclear-2023-11-05/

[ramit]

This needs repeating until understood by all.  Simple denial or attempts at rationalizing the official narrative will not suffice.  David is correct on every count here.

 

[Spanish]

9 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Wow, this thread's become a cesspit hasn't it?

 

IMO this thread is not a cesspit.  A massive issue that has been discussed here with incredible care and balance.  Not sure you will find another like this conducted in a similar manner.  Pretty much compliments to all the posters including @Carl Sagan .  I have found it illuminating.

[Alph]

Why are there protests in Israel?

Are these Jews not aware of the Holocaust? Are they not aware that Hamas attacked their people? 

Why are there calls for end of occupation? Jew traitors?

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Spanish said:

IMO this thread is not a cesspit.  A massive issue that has been discussed here with incredible care and balance.  Not sure you will find another like this conducted in a similar manner.  Pretty much compliments to all the posters including @Carl Sagan .  I have found it illuminating.

It's just annoying when people try to reduce your argument to

"if you're only argument is that they didn't behead babies then you have no argument at all". 

And

"I've been to music festivals... Imagine if....." 

There's so much more to Hamas than just insane murder. People call the situation complex but it seems that's only to excuse Israel. It's never complex when it's Hamas. But it's important to take time to understand why Hamas exist. Because they aren't going to be removed unless you remove a need(?) for a resistance. Painting them as just straight up savage barbarians is convenient. 

Give Hamas the weaponry Israel have and see it they resort to car bombs and AK's. Stick Israeli Jews in a densely populated region the size of Glasgow and see if Hamas use paragliders and swords. If they could sit in Tel Aviv and just press buttons to wipe out Israel that's exactly what they'd do. Because they're no more or less evil than the Israeli state. 

Would that sit better? Would that make them more civilised? 

As for the relatability he went into great depth with. Well also imagine forcibly being removed from your house. Your neighbours brutally beaten. Set on fire. Shot in cold blood. Stabbed to death. Then your home demolished and your entire suburb redistributed to others. Imagine protesting this and being shot. Imagine the lights going out in your city and you can't leave. Bombs destroying your home. Wiping at your business. Killing your friends. And you have zero say in who runs your country. You are born in a cage you will never leave. 

This is the thing that I find frustrating. People always want to talk about the complex issues around Israel/Jews. Which I get. And I get that there would be NO Israel if Hamas had power. 

But when it comes to the other side they want to flat refuse any reasoning. They're just savages. And to make sure they're only ever discussed on that level we can't just have them killing people. They have to be doing it in the most graphic and evil ways. To the most vulnerable. So any argument on their point is instantly null and void. 

The funny story about the Hamas suicide bomber that Israel found an instruction manual on. Come on!!! ffs. What sort of suicide bomber carries a shopping list with them? Get real ffs. The truth is bad. Stop making lies to halt any further discussion. 

This is why Palestinians won't come out and instantly condemn Hamas. Because first they want to talk about the wider conflict. They want Israel to be held to the same standards as Hamas. THEN, we can talk about Hamas as evil. Once we set the rules. 

Not "terrorist attack" Vs "collateral damage" 

[cstand]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Why are there protests in Israel?

Are these Jews not aware of the Holocaust? Are they not aware that Hamas attacked their people? 

Why are there calls for end of occupation? Jew traitors?

Because Israel is a democratic country unlike the totalitarian states that it has to protect itself against on on regular basis. 
The totalitarian states that surround Israel would crush any demonstrations that don’t fit with their narrative. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by cstand

[Alph]

6 minutes ago, cstand said:

Because Israel is a democratic country unlike the totalitarian states that it has to protect itself against on on regular basis. 
The totalitarian states that surround Israel would crush any demonstrations that don’t fit with their narrative. 

That's how they're protesting. Not why. 

[cstand]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

This needs repeating until understood by all.  Simple denial or attempts at rationalizing the official narrative will not suffice.  David is correct on every count here.

 

What a load of codswallop.

Israel built a wall that they thought would that would keep them safe and secure.

Just like 9-11, Pearl Harbour, Maginot Line Israel got caught with their pants down. 

[cstand]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

That's how they're protesting. Not why. 

Not one single Arab state that surrounds Israel supports democracy. 
Not one single state that surrounds Israel would allow any demonstrations against their own narrative they would be slaughtered or imprisoned.

[Highgate]

28 minutes ago, Alpha said:

But it's important to take time to understand why Hamas exist. Because they aren't going to be removed unless you remove a need(?) for a resistance.

The most important point on the whole thread I think.  The only way to end this conflict is to treat the Palestinians with equality and justice, then support for Hamas will start to wither away over time.  It hasn't happened since 1948 and I can't see it happening now, but it's the only way forward.  Bombing Gaza will just kill thousands and prolong the conflict for decades more.   Every day is a tragedy there now. 

[cstand]

40 minutes ago, Alpha said:

It's just annoying when people try to reduce your argument to

"if you're only argument is that they didn't behead babies then you have no argument at all". 

And

"I've been to music festivals... Imagine if....." 

There's so much more to Hamas than just insane murder. People call the situation complex but it seems that's only to excuse Israel. It's never complex when it's Hamas. But it's important to take time to understand why Hamas exist. Because they aren't going to be removed unless you remove a need(?) for a resistance. Painting them as just straight up savage barbarians is convenient. 

Give Hamas the weaponry Israel have and see it they resort to car bombs and AK's. Stick Israeli Jews in a densely populated region the size of Glasgow and see if Hamas use paragliders and swords. If they could sit in Tel Aviv and just press buttons to wipe out Israel that's exactly what they'd do. Because they're no more or less evil than the Israeli state. 

Would that sit better? Would that make them more civilised? 

As for the relatability he went into great depth with. Well also imagine forcibly being removed from your house. Your neighbours brutally beaten. Set on fire. Shot in cold blood. Stabbed to death. Then your home demolished and your entire suburb redistributed to others. Imagine protesting this and being shot. Imagine the lights going out in your city and you can't leave. Bombs destroying your home. Wiping at your business. Killing your friends. And you have zero say in who runs your country. You are born in a cage you will never leave. 

This is the thing that I find frustrating. People always want to talk about the complex issues around Israel/Jews. Which I get. And I get that there would be NO Israel if Hamas had power. 

But when it comes to the other side they want to flat refuse any reasoning. They're just savages. And to make sure they're only ever discussed on that level we can't just have them killing people. They have to be doing it in the most graphic and evil ways. To the most vulnerable. So any argument on their point is instantly null and void. 

The funny story about the Hamas suicide bomber that Israel found an instruction manual on. Come on!!! ffs. What sort of suicide bomber carries a shopping list with them? Get real ffs. The truth is bad. Stop making lies to halt any further discussion. 

This is why Palestinians won't come out and instantly condemn Hamas. Because first they want to talk about the wider conflict. They want Israel to be held to the same standards as Hamas. THEN, we can talk about Hamas as evil. Once we set the rules. 

Not "terrorist attack" Vs "collateral damage" 

Apparently it’s Islamophobia awareness month in November please @Alpha can you tell me when it’s Anti Semitic awareness month? 

[GboroRam]

12 minutes ago, cstand said:

Not one single Arab state that surrounds Israel supports democracy. 
Not one single state that surrounds Israel would allow any demonstrations against their own narrative they would be slaughtered or imprisoned.

In what way does that justify systematic slaughter of innocent civilians? "oh, but they don't support democracy"? 

Why is such barbarism allowed? Hamas hide behind a human shield, so Israeli forces shoot the innocent people being used like that? 

Tell me one film where the bad guy takes a hostage, holds a gun to their head, and the cop unloads his full clip into both of them? 

Why is such a disproportionate response not only allowed, but actively defended? 

[Spanish]

4 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

In what way does that justify systematic slaughter of innocent civilians? "oh, but they don't support democracy"? 

Why is such barbarism allowed? Hamas hide behind a human shield, so Israeli forces shoot the innocent people being used like that? 

Tell me one film where the bad guy takes a hostage, holds a gun to their head, and the cop unloads his full clip into both of them? 

Why is such a disproportionate response not only allowed, but actively defended? 

clearly if you do not defend it or, worse, criticise it you stand the risk of being tarred as an antisemite.  it feels as though there is an agenda to maintain the polarisation at all costs.  Nothing good will come of that apart for the money men supplying arms

[Alph]

17 minutes ago, cstand said:

Apparently it’s Islamophobia awareness month in November please @Alpha can you tell me when it’s Anti Semitic awareness month? 

Do you want me to answer? 

Why are there protests in Israel? Why are IDF serving soldiers speaking out against the Apartheid regime? 

It's because they don't blame Palestinians for centuries of Jewish suffering. They mostly blame Europeans. They recognise the illegal occupation of West Bank. Some of them have even served in operations to remove Palestinians in West Bank. They recognise the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing of human beings. And because they want hostages brought home safe. Because they don't want to face Hamas forever. That's why they're calling for a ceasefire and pro active solutions for the innocent Jews and Arabs. 

As are Jews For Justice For Palestinians

What's wrong with these people. Why don't they want Hamas destroyed as Netenyahu is doing? 

Why are they being assaulted by Israeli police? 

(Edited to add the Netenyahu bit as I'm sure all Jews want Hamas destroyed. As should any human being. But it's when and how. Not pretend that this will actually work)

Edited November 6, 2023 by Alpha

[cstand]

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

In what way does that justify systematic slaughter of innocent civilians? "oh, but they don't support democracy"? 

Why is such barbarism allowed? Hamas hide behind a human shield, so Israeli forces shoot the innocent people being used like that? 

Tell me one film where the bad guy takes a hostage, holds a gun to their head, and the cop unloads his full clip into both of them? 

Why is such a disproportionate response not only allowed, but actively defended? 

Hammas slaughtered 1,400 women and children deliberately to invoke a robust response by Israel. 
Hammas have sacrificed their own people many who would agree to a two tier state in Israel to win a propaganda war so they can continue their genocide of Jewish people in Israel 

Edited November 6, 2023 by cstand

[GboroRam]

2 minutes ago, cstand said:

Hammas slaughtered 1,400 women and children deliberately to invoke a robust response by Israel. 
Hammas have sacrificed their own people many who would agree to a two tier state in Israel to win a propaganda war so they can continue their genocide of Jewish people in Israel 

That doesn't answer my question. Why is this barbaric response towards innocent people allowed? 

Name me any film where the cop executes the hostage, and justifies it as acceptable collateral damage? Why do you think there aren't any (or if there are any, why so few?) 

[cstand]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

Do you want me to answer? 

Why are there protests in Israel? Why are IDF serving soldiers speaking out against the Apartheid regime? 

It's because they don't blame Palestinians for centuries of Jewish suffering. They mostly blame Europeans. They recognise the illegal occupation of West Bank. Some of them have even served in operations to remove Palestinians in West Bank. They recognise the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing of human beings. And because they want hostages brought home safe. Because they don't want to face Hamas forever. That's why they're calling for a ceasefire and pro active solutions for the innocent Jews and Arabs. 

As are Jews For Justice For Palestinians

What's wrong with these people. Why don't they want Hamas destroyed? 

Why are they being assaulted by Israeli police? 

It’s is not occupied land it is disputed land just any other land around the world.

Hammas wiped out 1,400 women and children we no thought whatsoever of the Israel response.

Hammas have sacrificed their own people many who would welcome a two tier state and meaningful discussions in Israel but they have no voice because any opposition against Hammas is crushed in a butral fashion.

[cstand]

6 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

That doesn't answer my question. Why is this barbaric response towards innocent people allowed? 

Name me any film where the cop executes the hostage, and justifies it as acceptable collateral damage? Why do you think there aren't any (or if there are any, why so few?) 

I have answered your question it does suit your narrative so you ignored it, that’s your fault not mine. 

Your question about films is not worthy of a reply because it has nothing related whatsoever about the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

Edited November 6, 2023 by cstand

[Alph]

5 minutes ago, cstand said:

Hammas slaughtered 1,400 women and children deliberately to invoke a robust response by Israel. 
Hammas have sacrificed their own people many who would agree to a two tier state in Israel to win a propaganda war so they can continue their genocide of Jewish people in Israel 

You're getting closer. Now you can unterchange Hamas/Israel, Jewish/Palestinian and you would be 100% correct. 

That's the point. That's why nobody here supports Hamas. But between Hamas and Israel one is a huge military power occupying land illegally and kills a much larger number of innocent people. 

For any step towards peace, Israel has to take it's foot off the throat of Palestine otherwise it will continue to be kicked in the struggle. 

We have to be careful not to weaken Israel to the point they're vulnerable to their neighbours. But the first move is with the occupier. Not the occupied. 

It's like asking Ukraine to stop attacking Russia. Respect the fecking boundaries then. International law. Treaties!