Where's this new midfielder?

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

 

Although I feel we may be heading towards "Unsigned Melody"

Oh, my love, my darling,

I want to smell your neck,

a long, lonely time,

and the ball goes by slowly,

midfield can do so much,

are you still mine,

I need your sign

I need your sign

Godspeed your signing to me

Lonely agents lie, to the sea.....

 

Yes... I went off the Righteous Brothers when the mob down the road started singing their songs 🤣

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, Curtains said:

https://www.managerstats.co.uk/managers/brian-clough/
 

lost more than he won at Hartlepool 

Shocking at Brighton and Leeds 

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make now.  You said earlier that Warne was being slammed for his time at Rotherham, yet he was successful there.  If you're really following through on the Clough analogy, we're not Derby in it, we're Leeds.  A manager goes from a club where he was successful (Warne at Rotherham, Clough at Derby) to a completely different club (Warne at Derby, Clough at Leeds or Brighton) and struggles to recreate what he previously did.

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, duncanjwitham said:

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make now.  You said earlier that Warne was being slammed for his time at Rotherham, yet he was successful there.  If you're really following through on the Clough analogy, we're not Derby in it, we're Leeds.  A manager goes from a club where he was successful (Warne at Rotherham, Clough at Derby) to a completely different club (Warne at Derby, Clough at Leeds or Brighton) and struggles to recreate what he previously did.

Makes it easier to believe Warne is the new Clough! 😄

[Curtains]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

How does that 'help' Warne, what if we are his Hartlepool, etc?

What if he is our Derby 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Curtains

[Curtains]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Makes it easier to believe Warne is the new Clough! 😄

Roy you are so impatient.  Maybe you could do the managers job 

[Curtains]

Clough useless without Taylor 

[Curtains]

10 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make now.  You said earlier that Warne was being slammed for his time at Rotherham, yet he was successful there.  If you're really following through on the Clough analogy, we're not Derby in it, we're Leeds.  A manager goes from a club where he was successful (Warne at Rotherham, Clough at Derby) to a completely different club (Warne at Derby, Clough at Leeds or Brighton) and struggles to recreate what he previously did.

My point is you aren’t giving Warne enough time to stamp his identity on Derby. 
Warne knows we aren’t great yet.  
Ed Dawes said Saturday was better but I disagree.  We played better against Wigan.  
Ed Dawes slipped into we won so it must be better trap. 
Sometimes you play well and lose and visa Versa

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Curtains said:

My point is you aren’t giving Warne enough time to stamp his identity on Derby. 
Warne knows we aren’t great yet.  
Ed Dawes said Saturday was better but I disagree.  We played better against Wigan.  
Ed Dawes slipped into we won so it must be better trap. 
Sometimes you play well and lose and visa Versa

How long do we give him then? Serious question.  At what point are we allowed to make a judgment on whether he's doing well or not?  

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, duncanjwitham said:

How long do we give him then? Serious question.  At what point are we allowed to make a judgment on whether he's doing well or not?  

He said it himself if he doesn’t get us up he’ll be gone at end of season. I think he’s right. 
I would give him this season 

[Blondest Goat]

47 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

No amount of time is going to change what type of players these signings fundamentally are though.  Sonny Bradley will never turn into the mobile, comfortable-on-the-ball centre half that is needed to play in the spread back 3 we started the season out in, Elder will never be a progressive wingback that can beat a fullback and whip a cross in etc.

You talk as if they need to be world beaters to do a job in league one. They don't.  They've both been playing at a higher level than this. 

And you're writing them off after a handful of games. Elder hasn't even been fit!  He was in the league one team of the season last time he was down here.  He could be bang average and still be better than Roberts, who aside from a headed goal at MK and an absolute screamer at home to Shrewsbury did virtually nothing, going forwards.  When did he ever "beat a full back and whip a cross in?". 

[Ambitious]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I think some people are going to be a bit disappointed when they realise Fornah is worse defensively than Bird and isn't too dissimilar to Smith.

I think this is an important point that needs addressing - we want somewhere in the region of £2-3m for Bird even in the last year of his deal. He is a technically good player and belongs at a higher level for his football ability, obviously there are cons to his game but he is in a different category to Fornah who is a young player with some potential, performed well at this level before but was inconsistent in the Championship. Not the end of the world. 

We can't expect any player coming in to the club to be the answer to our prayers as we aren't paying 'answer to our prayers' money. What Fornah does have, at least from my little deep dive, is a good level of technical footballing ability, a physical presence and the ability to cover a lot of ground. He doesn't make many defensive actions in terms of tackles, interceptions which isn't great and he can get swept up in the game which isn't uncommon for a young player - especially one playing at a higher level. 

Still, all things considered, a 23 year old with 100 senior appearances to his name at League One level and higher who has shown that he has the ability to stand-out in the Championship (first couple of months he was one of Reading's best players) - he started 10 of their first 13 games and they won 6 of the 10 he started. In fact, Reading won 13 games last season - only four of them were done without Fornah playing at least 40 minutes. 

Of the games he played less than 40 minutes in Reading's record was: 4 wins, 6 draws and 12 losses. With Fornah: 9 wins, 5 draws, 10 losses. A quite significant improvement - especially considering some of the teams the wins came against: Blackburn (7th), Middlesbrough (4th), Coventry (5th) & Millwall (8th). The wins Reading had in games that he didn't play more than 40 minutes in were Swansea (10th), Huddersfield (18th), Bristol City (16th) and Blackpool (23rd). 

[RoyMac5]

30 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Roy you are so impatient.  Maybe you could do the managers job 

Well I'd be playing 4 at the back that's certain.

[duncanjwitham]

Just now, Blondest Goat said:

You talk as if they need to be world beaters to do a job in league one. They don't.  They've both been playing at a higher level than this. 

And you're writing them off after a handful of games. Elder hasn't even been fit!  He was in the league one team of the season last time he was down here.  He could be bang average and still be better than Roberts, who aside from a headed goal at MK and an absolute screamer at home to Shrewsbury did virtually nothing, going forwards.  When did he ever "beat a full back and whip a cross in?". 

That's literally the entire point though.  Roberts spent the majority of the season playing as a regular fullback, or on the left of a back 3.  He did a decent job there.  He's a solid defender and comfortable passing the ball.  When he played as a wingback, I pointed out several times on here that he's not good enough going forwards to do that job.  He's not a dribbler or a crosser.  You need your wingbacks to be getting forwards, and getting good balls into the box, otherwise the entire system doesn't work.

Elder was in the team of the season playing as a regular fullback, not a flying wingback.  Bradley was excellent for Luton playing in a more structured defence, not the spread out back 3 we were trying to play in the first few games.  Ward did well for Peterborough playing as a winger, not a wingback.  And so on and so on. 

We were clearly wanting to play a back 3 since Warne got here (I presume we can at least agree on that?).  But we've gone and recruited a bunch of players that don't seem to be able to do it.  The players don't have to be world beaters, but if you put them in a team and ask them to do stuff they're not good at, they're going to struggle.  If we were supposed to be giving Warne a free pass for last season because he didn't have his own players in, then trying to argue that the player's we've signed to replace them have the exact same weaknesses isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of anything.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Curtains said:

I remember when Brian Clough came to Derby he didn’t do well at first . In fact it was very average.

I am not saying Warne is equatable to the genius BC but Brian had money to spend. 
He bought Todd without telling Sam. longson.

I just feel Warne is being slammed for Rotherham where as Clough could of been over Hartlepool.

We need to give Warne a chance and the guy is a decent bloke 

Clough won 7 and lost 2 of his first 9 League games, while bringing in O'Hare, McFarland, Robson and Hinton to join Webster, Durban, Daniel and Boulton who were already at the club. That season, the League performances tailed off but it was clear that a special team was in the making and we lost to Leeds in the semi-final of the League Cup. After the first month of the next season, Mackay, Carlin and McGovern had arrived to be followed later in the season by Wignall and the team romped away to win the Second Division, playing the sort of exciting and attractive football that hadn't been seen since in Derby since the Cup winners, over 20 years before. The same team finished 4th in the First Division the next season, with Hennessy arriving on transfer deadline day for £100k. Before that, Clough had spent just £160k bringing in the aforementioned players, which was not a lot of money for the time. The following season, Gemmill and Todd arrived to replace Mackay and Carlin and then the first Championship winning team was in place. Brian Clough never did very average nor even average; you should know that because you saw it too. I exclude the time Clough spent at Brighton and Leeds because there he was suffering from leaving Derby which was a massive distraction for him and he should never have gone to either. The money he spent on Todd, Hennessey and later David Nish was all earned from the massive increase in gate receipts that Clough and Taylor generated. Sam Longson, on his own admission, never put a penny into Derby County, other than the shares he bought and ultimately sold. The club's first real benefactor was Lionel Pickering, then Mel Morris and now Clowes Development.

Nobody expects Warne to make anywhere the progress Clough made; nobody but him and Taylor could have done it. Their efforts in turning Harlepools United around from annual elections to remain in the EFL to a team that won promotion in their first season at Derby were outstanding. They did that in just 18 months and they are as much remembered in Hartlepool as football geniuses today as they are in Derby. Nobody in the North East ever slammed them for what they achieved there, so get it right. Nobody on here has ever slammed Warne for what he did at Rotherham, far from it; but from what we've seen so far, some are just wondering how he did it and can you really blame them?

Warne is a decent bloke; some wouldn't say that about Brian Clough I daresay, nor Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho or Arsene Wenger but being a decent guy isn't an essential quality for becoming a successful football manager. At almost the end of his first season at Derby he is miles behind where Brian Clough was and if it was a horse race he would have been pulled up by now.

We all want Warne to succeed and most of us are prepared to be patient and he is getting his chance. But this is a fans forum which would be very boring if everyone chose to withhold their honest views. I'm not sure you are being honest to yourself with the comparisons you have made and your defence of Warne seems a bit over the top.

But hey, we all want him to get us promoted and this season if that is possible but he himself seems to have self-doubts about that after just four games. Brian Clough never had self-doubts in his life. He was born more arrogant than most who have ever lived but like his hero, Muhammad Ali, he lived up to it.

COYR

Edited August 23, 2023 by Brailsford Ram

[Curtains]

20 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Clough won 7 and lost 2 of his first 9 League games, while bringing in O'Hare, McFarland, Robson and Hinton to join Webster, Durban, Daniel and Boulton who were already at the club. That season, the League performances tailed off but it was clear that a special team was in the making and we lost to Leeds in the semi-final of the League Cup. After the first month of the next season, Mackay, Carlin and McGovern had arrived to be followed later in the season by Wignall and the team romped away to win the Second Division, playing the sort of exciting and attractive football that hadn't been seen since in Derby since the Cup winners, over 20 years before. The same team finished 4th in the First Division the next season, with Hennessy arriving on transfer deadline day for £100k. Before that, Clough had spent just £160k bringing in the aforementioned players, which was not a lot of money for the time. The following season, Gemmill and Todd arrived to replace Mackay and Carlin and then the first Championship winning team was in place. Brian Clough never did very average nor even average; you should know that because you saw it too. I exclude the time Clough spent at Brighton and Leeds because there he was suffering from leaving Derby which was a massive distraction for him and he should never have gone to either. The money he spent on Todd, Hennessey and later David Nish was all earned from the massive increase in gate receipts that Clough and Taylor generated. Sam Longson, on his own admission, never put a penny into Derby County, other than the shares he bought and ultimately sold. The club's first real benefactor was Lionel Pickering, then Mel Morris and now Clowes Development.

Nobody expects Warne to make anywhere the progress Clough made; nobody but him and Taylor could have done it. Their efforts in turning Harlepools United around from annual elections to remain in the EFL to a team that won promotion in their first season at Derby were outstanding. They did that in just 18 months and they are as much remembered in Hartlepool as football geniuses today as they are in Derby. Nobody in the North East ever slammed them for what they achieved there, so get it right. Nobody on here has ever slammed Warne for what he did at Rotherham, far from it; but from what we've seen so far, some are just wondering how he did it and can you really blame them?

Warne is a decent bloke; some wouldn't say that about Brian Clough I daresay, nor Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho or Arsene Wenger but being a decent guy isn't an essential quality for becoming a successful football manager. At almost the end of his first season at Derby he is miles behind where Brian Clough was and if it was a horse race he would have been pulled up by now.

We all want Warne to succeed and most of us are prepared to be patient and he is getting his chance. But this is a fans forum which would be very boring if everyone chose to withhold their honest views. I'm not sure you are being honest to yourself with the comparisons you have made and your defence of Warne seems a bit over the top.

But hey, we all want him to get us promoted and this season if that is possible but he himself seems to have self-doubts about that after just four games. Brian Clough never had self-doubts in his life. He was born more arrogant than most who have ever lived but like his hero, Muhammad Ali, he lived up to it.

COYR

Oh my goodness another monologue.

I said I wasn’t equating BC with PW.  
 
Different eras .

Clough wouldn’t have got away with watering pitches to a quagmire nowadays.

Dave Mackay would have been sent off every week .

Referees didn’t book players for looking at them the wrong way. 
You cannot be serious as McEnroe would say .

Paint that damn penalty spot 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Curtains
Spelling

[Topram]

Whose the other midfielder then ?

[Henrycav81]

18 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Clough won 7 and lost 2 of his first 9 League games, while bringing in O'Hare, McFarland, Robson and Hinton to join Webster, Durban, Daniel and Boulton who were already at the club. That season, the League performances tailed off but it was clear that a special team was in the making and we lost to Leeds in the semi-final of the League Cup. After the first month of the next season, Mackay, Carlin and McGovern had arrived to be followed later in the season by Wignall and the team romped away to win the Second Division, playing the sort of exciting and attractive football that hadn't been seen since in Derby since the Cup winners, over 20 years before. The same team finished 4th in the First Division the next season, with Hennessy arriving on transfer deadline day for £100k. Before that, Clough had spent just £160k bringing in the aforementioned players, which was not a lot of money for the time. The following season, Gemmill and Todd arrived to replace Mackay and Carlin and then the first Championship winning team was in place. Brian Clough never did very average nor even average; you should know that because you saw it too. I exclude the time Clough spent at Brighton and Leeds because there he was suffering from leaving Derby which was a massive distraction for him and he should never have gone to either. The money he spent on Todd, Hennessey and later David Nish was all earned from the massive increase in gate receipts that Clough and Taylor generated. Sam Longson, on his own admission, never put a penny into Derby County, other than the shares he bought and ultimately sold. The club's first real benefactor was Lionel Pickering, then Mel Morris and now Clowes Development.

Nobody expects Warne to make anywhere the progress Clough made; nobody but him and Taylor could have done it. Their efforts in turning Harlepools United around from annual elections to remain in the EFL to a team that won promotion in their first season at Derby were outstanding. They did that in just 18 months and they are as much remembered in Hartlepool as football geniuses today as they are in Derby. Nobody in the North East ever slammed them for what they achieved there, so get it right. Nobody on here has ever slammed Warne for what he did at Rotherham, far from it; but from what we've seen so far, some are just wondering how he did it and can you really blame them?

Warne is a decent bloke; some wouldn't say that about Brian Clough I daresay, nor Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho or Arsene Wenger but being a decent guy isn't an essential quality for becoming a successful football manager. At almost the end of his first season at Derby he is miles behind where Brian Clough was and if it was a horse race he would have been pulled up by now.

We all want Warne to succeed and most of us are prepared to be patient and he is getting his chance. But this is a fans forum which would be very boring if everyone chose to withhold their honest views. I'm not sure you are being honest to yourself with the comparisons you have made and your defence of Warne seems a bit over the top.

But hey, we all want him to get us promoted and this season if that is possible but he himself seems to have self-doubts about that after just four games. Brian Clough never had self-doubts in his life. He was born more arrogant than most who have ever lived but like his hero, Muhammad Ali, he lived up to it.

COYR

You’ve forgotten to mention the main man who was at the club when cloughie arrived “ King Kev”

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, Henrycav81 said:

You’ve forgotten to mention the main man who was at the club when cloughie arrived “ King Kev”

And Durban and Webster were already at the club

[Curtains]

9 minutes ago, Henrycav81 said:

You’ve forgotten to mention the main man who was at the club when cloughie arrived “ King Kev”

Good manager was Tim Ward. One of the best 

[Henrycav81]

3 minutes ago, Curtains said:

And Durban and Webster were already at the club

Brailsfordram had already said Durban, Webster, Daniel & Boulton were already at the club he’d just forgotten Hector I’m sure it was only an oversight