Academy thread 23/24

[ram59]

On 15/11/2023 at 13:46, RoyMac5 said:

I think that was my point. I watched the latest RamsTV academy offering and saw little (excepting a couple of wild long balls out from the centre backs!) to remind me of the first team. In the game last night there was plenty of opportunity to give the youngsters a run out. But instead one 'youngster' who set up our goal (according to GoC) was pulled off.

I realise this is yet another anti-Warne diatribe, but where do you get your positive view of the Academy going forward from if Warne is leading them? I see nothing but losing our good youngsters to more forward-thinking teams, why stay here when the first team's tactics are 'get it wide and cross it' no matter who is in the middle? This is the worst of our current situation, thinking that our talented youngsters, that we are developing will not want to stay. 😞

This is another anti-Warne diatribe, what do you base your latest criticism of him on?

Is it his choice to substitute a player who although set up our goal, maybe didn't do enough otherwise, in Warne's opinion? Did you watch the whole game or did you base this player's performance on one contribution, that you'd heard about?

If you watched the whole game and felt that the player was unfairly 'pulled off', fair enough.

I refuse to criticise players publicly but, personally, I understood the substitution in in this instance, having suffered watching the whole game.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Banksy said:

Your views about Wassall and the value of what was invested in the academy seem to have taken a very sharp U-turn since March this year when he was still in post. At that time you said this:

ExiledinDerby

Posted March 26

'The academy has to have a budget of £2 million per year to retain Cat 1 status. If you are a lower category the value of your players decreases so if you think the money we received recently is bad try Cat 2 where the a player is worth less than half that of a Cat 1 player who has been at the club from u8 - u16 under EPPP.

It has been Cat 1 since 2014 I think so I assume costs of about £18 million pound.

Hendrick £8 million

Hughes £5 million

Gordon £3 million

Lowe, Whittaker, Bogle, Kellyman, Delap, Man Utd Kids, Buchanan, Ryan, Ebosele, Ebowei…

Its actually made more money than it’s cost….

That return on numbers of players alone including Bird, Sibley, Knight would suggest without it 

Current players creating interest and with potential Robinson, Richards, Hawkins, Brown, Wheeldon, Evans, Thompson… to name a few.

For what my opinion is worth (not much I know 😀) I’d say it’s been a good investment.. '

I agree with most of that but is very different to what you are now saying. You also say 'that towards the end they lost a lot of good coaches and the regime needed changing.' This seems to imply that we lost coaches because of Wassall, not through administration or other reasons. I recall Boyer leaving to manage Salford, Short to become assistant-manager at Oxford, Walker to the first team and then going with Rosenior to Hull and Pearcey leaving when Warne brought in Waddington. They didn't leave because of Wassall. So can you tell us who did?

I accept your point about nepotism which is an innate problem with most parents. The same was said about Alex Ferguson bringing Darren into his United team and winning a Premier League winners medal in 1992-3. The same was said about Brian Clough chucking Nigel in at 18 at Forest where he won 14 England caps and a couple of League Cups. People made the point that neither did as well at other clubs, ignoring the fact that their initial success might have been down to the fact they were playing under the two greatest ever British managers. Darren didn't have that defence. He was just another academy parent who perhaps had an over-inflated view of his son's ability as most parents tend to have about their offspring in all walks of life. It's not a crime, it's perfectly natural and can't be helped.

I still think that Wassall did an excellent job for Derby.

 

My first statement was he did a good job. I think he did and that the academy has produced a number of good players over his term and I stand by that. Why I will say is that the coaches are who actually delivered those players and not Wassall himself.

Coaches like Rory Delap, like Des Walker, Rob Kozluk, like Justin Walker. They were all there and had input into the golden generation of Sibley, Bird, Hendrick etc and when they left there was a big hole left in terms of number and quality of coaches. There were whispers of people leaving because of him and plenty of discussion around his attitude towards parents and players who he maybe didn’t favour. 
 

But as I said as the overall Director he managed the growth well but did benefit from very substantial funding and a very close relationship with the owner of the club including employing the owners son in a capacity he was not qualified for in the academy and his agent son also coaching.

There was plenty said over the last few years about it all. 

My post you highlighted was in its full context which I’m sure you read before you selected sone of it whether I think the academy was a waste of money on its return of players and of that I will say as I did then it has returned plenty of players to be considered of value, I also say Wassall did a good job with good funding for a period of time. What I also stand by is that he needed to leave and that the new regime is a good one that will deliver what the club needs. 

[RoyMac5]

48 minutes ago, ram59 said:

This is another anti-Warne diatribe, what do you base your latest criticism of him on?

Is it his choice to substitute a player who although set up our goal, maybe didn't do enough otherwise, in Warne's opinion? Did you watch the whole game or did you base this player's performance on one contribution, that you'd heard about?

If you watched the whole game and felt that the player was unfairly 'pulled off', fair enough.

I refuse to criticise players publicly but, personally, I understood the substitution in in this instance, having suffered watching the whole game.

 

 

[ram59]

35 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

 

So, you're original criticism of the first substitution was based on nothing but a goal assist in the first few minutes and you have no knowledge of the player's contribution after then?  Warne can be judged to have made plenty of mistakes, but shouldn't be criticised by people with no knowledge of what they're going on about.

However, it was disappointing that youngsters weren't given game time towards the end when the game appeared lost, although didn't the first game also appear lost?

He couldn't have made a substitution in injury time because we'd used our 3 substitution windows by only doing one at a time, a few minutes apart. That's a criticism from me, we seem to poorly manage our 3 transfer windows by not utilising the half time break and just making single substitutions a few minutes apart.

[Premier ram]

1 hour ago, ram59 said:

So, you're original criticism of the first substitution was based on nothing but a goal assist in the first few minutes and you have no knowledge of the player's contribution after then?  Warne can be judged to have made plenty of mistakes, but shouldn't be criticised by people with no knowledge of what they're going on about.

However, it was disappointing that youngsters weren't given game time towards the end when the game appeared lost, although didn't the first game also appear lost?

He couldn't have made a substitution in injury time because we'd used our 3 substitution windows by only doing one at a time, a few minutes apart. That's a criticism from me, we seem to poorly manage our 3 transfer windows by not utilising the half time break and just making single substitutions a few minutes apart.

Sibbo was also on a yellow card 

[RoyMac5]

11 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

Sibbo was also on a yellow card 

Wilson was booked before Sibs. It's more to do with where and how he plays, if only he could cross the ball or put in a decent deadball. Oh, he can.

Edited November 16, 2023 by RoyMac5

[ram59]

53 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Wilson was booked before Sibs. It's more to do with where and how he plays, if only he could cross the ball or put in a decent deadball. Oh, he can.

Did you actually watch the game?

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, ram59 said:

Did you actually watch the game?

That didn't, and you haven't, answered the points I made. 😄

[ram59]

38 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

That didn't, and you haven't, answered the points I made. 😄

Assuming your constant refusal to say that you have actually watched the game, you can't possibly compare the cards issued for Wilson and Sibo. Also, you can't be in a position to comment on the decision to substitute a particular player, as you don't even know how he has played, he could be Messi but if he's having a rubbish game, he needs to be pulled off.

It appears that you're just having a go at Warne, in this particular instance, simply because you have an agenda against him. He's made plenty of mistakes for you to criticise, without you making up reasons.

[Caerphilly Ram]

Dom Dietrich had an interesting interview with Matt Hale which includes the plans for the academy, how his experience at Southampton is relevant, the challenges with competing locally with other academies and other bits. Worth a listen if you’ve got a spare half hour;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gss202

[RoyMac5]

13 hours ago, ram59 said:

Assuming your constant refusal to say that you have actually watched the game, you can't possibly compare the cards issued for Wilson and Sibo. Also, you can't be in a position to comment on the decision to substitute a particular player, as you don't even know how he has played, he could be Messi but if he's having a rubbish game, he needs to be pulled off.

It appears that you're just having a go at Warne, in this particular instance, simply because you have an agenda against him. He's made plenty of mistakes for you to criticise, without you making up reasons.

Are there two different yellow cards? Get another and you are off. So it doesn't matter what the first was issued for. I know that Sibs set up the goal and has the best shot in the squad or some such label from Warne. We needed to score. We needed to try something other than put Ward on to throw yet more crosses into the box. If you'd take Messi off when your team were needing goals however he'd been playing then that would be your choice. I'd leave him on as he'd have something extra. No I am not comparing Sibs to Messi or Bellingham.

Warne get the criticism because he's one dimensional. I wonder who needed to see the game to know he'd bring Bradley on? 😄 You are exaggerating a point, my point was about younger players not getting a chance. But yeah Sibs had 60 minutes so that's enough! Was there no-one else playing as badly as Sibley then?

Edited November 17, 2023 by RoyMac5

[RoyMac5]

Currently watching the England U17s play Brazil U17s in the World Cup (on FIFA Plus). Have we any contenders for an England place?

Edited November 17, 2023 by RoyMac5

[RoyMac5]

 

[RoyMac5]

 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

16 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

With no footy this weekend this is a great opportunity for Warne to go and watch the future generations.

Let's just hope he isn't washing his hair.

[duncanjwitham]

22 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

With no footy this weekend this is a great opportunity for Warne to go and watch the future generations.

Rotherham haven't got a game either, it's the international break 👍

[ram59]

54 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Are there two different yellow cards? Get another and you are off. So it doesn't matter what the first was issued for. I know that Sibs set up the goal and has the best shot in the squad or some such label from Warne. We needed to score. We needed to try something other than put Ward on to throw yet more crosses into the box. If you'd take Messi off when your team were needing goals however he'd been playing then that would be your choice. I'd leave him on as he'd have something extra. No I am not comparing Sibs to Messi or Bellingham.

Warne get the criticism because he's one dimensional. I wonder who needed to see the game to know he'd bring Bradley on? 😄 You are exaggerating a point, my point was about younger players not getting a chance. But yeah Sibs had 60 minutes so that's enough! Was there no-one else playing as badly as Sibley then?

Yes there are 2 types of yellow cards when thinking about substitutions which is what we're discussing.

No1 player commits a deliberate foul to prevent a dangerous attack building up, he's fully in control of his actions by assessing the situation is worth getting a yellow card for and because his actions are so measured, he's unlikely to risk another card.

No2 player lungs through the back of a defender who is facing his own corner flag about 10 yards away and relieves the pressure on the defending team by giving the foul away and getting a card. He has shown that he is out of control in a non stressful situation.

Question: 2 players both on a yellow card, which would you substitute?

Unquestionably, Sibo is one of the most talented players at our club and can comfortably score with either foot, but you have to make judgement calls how players are playing on the day and whether they're likely to change the game, when you take them off. Many times over the years, I seen our star players having an awful game and need to be pulled off, quite often the managers haven't been brave enough to do it. It seems that all managers have their favourites, who are rarely substituted or dropped. Sometimes, it's quite amusing when a sub is waiting to come on to replace a player, then that player scores and the manager has to change his mind.

[Stuniverse]

Middlesbrough U18 v Derby County U18

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2023/11/17/england/premier-academy-league/middlesbrough-fc-under-18-academy/derby-county-fc-under-18-academy/4203258/

[Banksy]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Posted in error

Edited November 17, 2023 by Banksy

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Stuniverse said:

Middlesbrough U18 v Derby County U18

https://us.soccerway.com/matches/2023/11/17/england/premier-academy-league/middlesbrough-fc-under-18-academy/derby-county-fc-under-18-academy/4203258/

Good to see some younger and fringe players getting a game and getting a result and also great to see Price getting a game in goal. Been tough for him sitting behind Thompson but still a very capable goalkeeper. I’m looking forward to Hardy getting some opportunities in goal as well as he has been really highly rated for some time. A lot of big clubs on his trail. 
 

The u16s really do seem to have a wealth of talent, the next few years seem really do seem to be heading in the right direction.