Freedom of Speech

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Archied said:

So by that muddled thinking really what you are saying is that some sports can be decided to be totally unisex , men can / should be able to compete in womens darts and such like? 
im ok to have that , after all men have been slowly been disallowed any areas of life they can have as womens rights have taken precedence, you see that is the where this all ends and perhaps you reap what you sow,

unless of course people stop all this stupidity 

There are sports where physicality would be a huge influence on the results - and others where that is not the case.

I bowled at professional level 25 years ago, and believe you me, Lisa John, Kirsten Penny and Gemma Burden were more than a match for 99% of male bowlers.

Most of the top tournaments were 'open' - only the national championships had men's/women's sections, and that was really only for the benefit of lower-skilled bowlers where the 'smash it hard down the middle and hope for the best' approach was in evidence.

[Archied]

9 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

It's weird because I agree with what you say in bold here. So why the ad hominem attack, accusing me of "spouting guff" ?(although full disclosure - i did have curry for tea). 

Literally all I have said is that I think it should be left up to each individual sporting body to decide its own rules around trans-gender participation

In contrast - you have said 

and

and posted several aggressive-sounding  responses to my comments. Perhaps take a step back and consider why you feel the need to attack me when I haven't actually said anything controversial

 

Ah now I’m aggressive sounding,, 

you stated trans women are women and experts should decide whether they can compete in womens sport( unfair and often outright dangerous ),, that is a statement I disagree with and believe it or not up to you but I’m pretty sure you won’t ,it’s on the grounds that it is harmful to trans people , what is wrong with being a trans woman ?, where is the shame in that ? ,

trans people should be told to be proud and happy with who they are not constantly pitched into this stupid fight that is unfair on them and biological women but as always it’s the extremists that just cause division , there is a place for all types of people in n this world and all should treat each other with respect and consideration 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Archied

[Crewton]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

There are sports where physicality would be a huge influence on the results - and others where that is not the case.

I bowled at professional level 25 years ago, and believe you me, Lisa John, Kirsten Penny and Gemma Burden were more than a match for 99% of male bowlers.

Most of the top tournaments were 'open' - only the national championships had men's/women's sections, and that was really only for the benefit of lower-skilled bowlers where the 'smash it hard down the middle and hope for the best' approach was in evidence.

I don't think there's any disagreement that women should be able to compete against men where they have the ability/talent to do so. Rachel Blackmore and Katie Walsh are fine examples of women doing great things in open competition where they would once have been prevented from participating. 

The controversy is where people born as male and who've gone through puberty are seeking the right to compete in women's sports to the detriment of xx women. 

The solution to me seems relatively straightforward : an "open" class in which anyone can compete, with a handicapping system if necessary. 

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I don't think there's any disagreement that women should be able to compete against men where they have the ability/talent to do so. Rachel Blackmore and Katie Walsh are fine examples of women doing great things in open competition where they would once have been prevented from participating. 

The controversy is where people born as male and who've gone through puberty are seeking the right to compete in women's sports to the detriment of xx women. 

The solution to me seems relatively straightforward : an "open" class in which anyone can compete, with a handicapping system if necessary. 

Exactly, every sport is different and can decide it's own rules to protect integrity and fairness. Open classes, handicap systems, hormone thresholds, weight limits, height limits etc etc lots of variables and acceptable solutions to be had on a sport-by-sport basis. And yes that includes a sport being able to decide that it won't allow any trans competitors if it concludes that is for the best

That's the reasonable and sensible moderate approach

Beware the absolutists.

[Archied]

4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Exactly, every sport is different and can decide it's own rules to protect integrity and fairness. Open classes, handicap systems, hormone thresholds, weight limits, height limits etc etc lots of variables and acceptable solutions to be had on a sport-by-sport basis. And yes that includes a sport being able to decide that it won't allow any trans competitors if it concludes that is for the best

That's the reasonable and sensible moderate approach

Beware the absolutists.

Don’t agree , the path you promote just creates constant division ,argument, resentment with so called experts with different opinions ,

we as humans have created a different catagory of people through drugs and surgery where there was only 2 now there is 3 ,

a trans catagory should be created not only in sport but in many many other areas of life , for me that promotes far more a route to fairness and acceptance 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Archied

[Carl Sagan]

Scottish Nationalist MP Joanna Cherry (who's also a King's Counsel) suggests that the PayPal ban on providing services to the Free Speech Union (among others) is potentially discriminatory, breaking UK Law:

 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Scottish Nationalist MP Joanna Cherry (who's also a King's Counsel) suggests that the PayPal ban on providing services to the Free Speech Union (among others) is potentially discriminatory, breaking UK Law:

 

Those lefty lawyers at it again!

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

Scottish Nationalist MP Joanna Cherry (who's also a King's Counsel) suggests that the PayPal ban on providing services to the Free Speech Union (among others) is potentially discriminatory, breaking UK Law

It will certainly make for an interesting test case if the FSU want to take them to court over it. 

The only comment from PayPal that I can find anywhere doesn't go into specifics - simply says that they will always close accounts that violate their acceptable use policies, and that they don't comment on individual cases

Outside of wild speculation amongst Toby Young supporters I haven't seen any evidence anywhere that the reason was to do with "gender-critical views", in fact the only place that does claim to have insider information was The Times article and that says that they have learned it was to do with covid misinformation

Seems a bit odd that a learned KC and MP would be inciting people to complain about discrimination in such an opaque case with zero evidence of discrimination. All PayPal have to do is say that it was nothing to do with any of the protected characteristics under the Equality Act and then they can't possibly be guilty of discrimination can they

[DerbysLane]

On 24/09/2022 at 15:14, Stive Pesley said:

As per above - for me, it's nothing to do with her having that opinion, it's the language she uses when doing so that make her seem transphobic. When she talks about people "choosing to be trans-sexual" and people "wishing to live as a trans-sexual", that immediately marks her out as having absolutely zero idea what people with gender dysphoria have to deal with. They don't choose any of it any more than someone chooses to be disabled, chooses to be black or chooses to be gay - it's just who they are. 

I have zero idea about the subject too, but from my ignorant viewpoint she is right, people do choose to be trans-sexual?  They may not have a choice about gender dysphoria, but they can choose how to treat/live with it.  In the recent past it was easy, there was no option you just had to accept your birth sex/gender.  You would hope that nowadays phycologists could help make that easier, to accept reality.  Instead we have clinicians (e.g. Tavistock) and the media encouraging young people to run with their thoughts and live as a trans-sexual.

My nephews tell me there is now such a thing as trans-disabled.  People who believe they should be disabled and are purposefully injuring themselves so they have a disability.

[therealhantsram]

Wonder if it's time to close this thread. Seems to have gone quite off-topic into a debate on trans rights.

[Stive Pesley]

42 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

Wonder if it's time to close this thread. Seems to have gone quite off-topic into a debate on trans rights.

I messaged the mods this morning and asked them to take action, but the posts are still up. 

[GboroRam]

44 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

Wonder if it's time to close this thread. Seems to have gone quite off-topic into a debate on trans rights.

Hint taken. 

Discussion seems to have run its course. 

[GboroRam]

“PayPal has reinstated the accounts of the Free Speech Union after it was accused by MPs of imposing an ‘orchestrated, politically motivated’ ban.” The @Telegraph has the story.https://t.co/P0gMi4nkSD

— The Free Speech Union (@SpeechUnion) September 28, 2022

Added note from @maxjam, as relevant to previous comments.