Crewton Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said: You're annoyed You're confusing a difference of opinion with 'annoyance' but you kind-of proved my point when you said that you had to explain to people what it was all about before they understood the issue. I believe you get a much greater purchase by engaging rather then annoying people. I'm sure that most people don't understand why activists are focusing so much on Britain, a currently much less significant contributor to climate change, rather than, say, China, India or Russia, much bigger contributors to the overall picture and why activists don't appear to be angry over that - so perhaps some energy should be devoted to explaining this apparent anomaly. I know why it is, but do the public in general? Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 5 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: Wrong. As I just explained Again - people more interested in getting the fleeting pleasure of pointing out a perceived hypocrisy because "i bet they trod on some grass on the way to the gallery - how can they love plants so much and do that? Idiots!" When the food supply breaks down, you can rest easy knowing that you got one over on a lib because you knew that "wearing a polyester t-shirt means they secretly love oil. Idiots!" Keep going "As I understand it", "that's your belief", Mistake continually being made", "You're annoyed" all point to one thing. The message isn't being delivered. Jeremy Clarkson and his farm will have done much more good for the environment than the two hypocritical girls very badly trying to prove a point. Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 35 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: Wrong. As I just explained Again - people more interested in getting the fleeting pleasure of pointing out a perceived hypocrisy because "i bet they trod on some grass on the way to the gallery - how can they love plants so much and do that? Idiots!" When the food supply breaks down, you can rest easy knowing that you got one over on a lib because you knew that "wearing a polyester t-shirt means they secretly love oil. Idiots!" Keep going Don't recall anyone saying that The wouldn't say they secretly love oil, they'd rightly say your wearing a t shirt saying just stop oil, on a product that's derived from a base of crude oil. Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 4 hours ago, Archied said: Where do you want to start ? The mad rush to net zero in this country? Yeah, that would be a good place. What are the pros of the Carbon Zero objective....and what are the cons of maintaining the status quo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 3 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: I guess the point is that people don't know about the more palatable protests happening outside parliment. Not very newsworthy and no clickbait anger to drive. As a species, I think we are more or less screwed. We are hopeless at working together on any large scale as we are all inherently selfish. Our only hope are some huge technological advances that allow us to live our lives as comfortably as we do now, with no sacrafices necessary. Maybe living in huge futuristic buildings raised above the water, that protect us from a poisonous atmosphere? Yeah, that's a good point. Given the way social media works, the people viewing the art gallery protests are most likely those who will be most angry about it. And it's these more controversial protests are the ones that will go viral. I think the protesters are sincere and I think there is a whole lot to protest about, I just fear these sort of protests may actually backfire on the Green movement in general. Spot on about people being hopeless at working together, a fact exasperated by our nation state model, which has countries all pulling in different directions. We are also hopeless at planning for the future, especially against somewhat vague and amorphous threats. I'm still somewhat hopeful about technology coming to our rescue. Even 10 years from now the difference could be incredible if we put our minds to it. Technology already exists that can transform our planet's energy system if we have the determination to implement it. If you haven't seen him already, the 'Just Have a Think' channel on YouTube basically presents a new development in Green Technology every week for example. ariotofmyown and Stive Pesley 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Highgate said: I'm still somewhat hopeful about technology coming to our rescue. Even 10 years from now the difference could be incredible if we put our minds to it. You have to remain hopeful, but the real danger is that there are so many ecological tipping points from which, by definition, there is no reversing. The most likely scenario is that it will take a tipping point moment for people to accept that we need to actually act and start pulling together, but by then it may be too late https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-nine-tipping-points-that-could-be-triggered-by-climate-change/ ariotofmyown, Highgate and sheeponacid 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 33 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said: Don't recall anyone saying that The wouldn't say they secretly love oil, they'd rightly say your wearing a t shirt saying just stop oil, on a product that's derived from a base of crude oil. Thanks for the emoji retort. As insipid as throwing soup at a painting, so no real argument. Fair enough. Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: You have to remain hopeful, but the real danger is that there are so many ecological tipping points from which, by definition, there is no reversing. The most likely scenario is that it will take a tipping point moment for people to accept that we need to actually act and start pulling together, but by then it may be too late https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-nine-tipping-points-that-could-be-triggered-by-climate-change/ It's the methane sinks in the Arctic tundra and Arctic Ocean that have me most worried (listed there as 'Permafrost Loss'). Given the alarming and faster than predicted warming of the Arctic, that tipping point could be just around the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: Wrong. As I just explained Again - people more interested in getting the fleeting pleasure of pointing out a perceived hypocrisy because "i bet they trod on some grass on the way to the gallery - how can they love plants so much and do that? Idiots!" When the food supply breaks down, you can rest easy knowing that you got one over on a lib because you knew that "wearing a polyester t-shirt means they secretly love oil. Idiots!" Keep going See that's not the angle I'm coming from. I'm not that bothered what colour their hair is. I just don't like their behaviour. I think some of the things you appear too see as acceptable are different to mine. I don't think it's ok for the Suffragettes to send parcel bombs. I don't think it's ok for Insulate Britain to block motorways, I don't think anything as historic as that painting should have anything thrown at it. That doesn't mean I don't care about the planet or any other cause. A few times in this thread you've implied that people aren't seeing the bigger picture and you're pointing to the current debate to prove it. But maybe some people do see the bigger picture. Maybe some don't. I'm not applauding farmers for emptying their s**** into a rivers. But I don't think it's acceptable for me to come and spray paint every car on your street. "When the food supply breaks down you can rest assured that you got one over on a lib..." You said yourself earlier that you don't believe anybody actually wants to kill the planet. So nobody would rest assured at such a thing. I don't believe that these people should be painted as bigger villains than say the oil companies. I just don't believe going around vandalising and being anti social or worse is acceptable. You say they're creating conversations for you to make people think about the bigger picture. I can see that. Someone says to you "those idiots did this" and then that becomes about more than throwing soup. I get that. But I think those conversations are happening. I feel like people are trying to change. I'm not sure about Governments and water/companies and farmers etc. But pressure is being applied to them. We need more and fast. But imo it's happening. I actually think high profile celebs probably open up more conversations than throwing soup. I don't know. The thread has become draining. The insulate Britain blocking motorways is going to end with people getting hurt. It angers people. Maybe your social circle is the opposite of mine but I don't feel like it would lead to a wider conversation for the people I meet. It just really really pissed people off. Not just people who hate the world, like to see people with frostbite and leave their diesel vans running overnight. Can I ask though, how far would you think it could be acceptable to go? It's only soup. It's only a blocked motorway. At what point would it be too far? Or are all actions justified by the cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Alpha said: Can I ask though, how far would you think it could be acceptable to go? It's only soup. It's only a blocked motorway. At what point would it be too far? Or are all actions justified by the cause? I don't generally have a problem with non-violent civil disobedience. "Too far" would be anything violent I guess Highgate, sheeponacid and Alph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 48 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: I don't generally have a problem with non-violent civil disobedience. "Too far" would be anything violent I guess Damage to property is acceptable then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: Wrong. As I just explained Again - people more interested in getting the fleeting pleasure of pointing out a perceived hypocrisy because "i bet they trod on some grass on the way to the gallery - how can they love plants so much and do that? Idiots!" When the food supply breaks down, you can rest easy knowing that you got one over on a lib because you knew that "wearing a polyester t-shirt means they secretly love oil. Idiots!" Keep going And there you have it folks,,, don’t point out the undeniable truth that I don’t have a leg to stand on demanding how others live they’re lives when I don’t do as I demand of others ,,,,,, ???, that is the style of debate employed by so many of these woke loons now, you can’t have a sensible debate on anything with people who demand there are different rules for them than those who disagree with them , they are special and so so right , shame boris , Hancock ,Ferguson Cummings and the like didn’t know that was a thing , you could just say being a hypocrite who doesn’t live by the rules they set others was a thing , they could still be in post, if someone stands/ lives by the principle s they argue then I may disagree with them but I must respect them,, erm not this lot Edited October 18, 2022 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Alpha said: See that's not the angle I'm coming from. I'm not that bothered what colour their hair is. I just don't like their behaviour. I think some of the things you appear too see as acceptable are different to mine. I don't think it's ok for the Suffragettes to send parcel bombs. I don't think it's ok for Insulate Britain to block motorways, I don't think anything as historic as that painting should have anything thrown at it. That doesn't mean I don't care about the planet or any other cause. A few times in this thread you've implied that people aren't seeing the bigger picture and you're pointing to the current debate to prove it. But maybe some people do see the bigger picture. Maybe some don't. I'm not applauding farmers for emptying their s**** into a rivers. But I don't think it's acceptable for me to come and spray paint every car on your street. "When the food supply breaks down you can rest assured that you got one over on a lib..." You said yourself earlier that you don't believe anybody actually wants to kill the planet. So nobody would rest assured at such a thing. I don't believe that these people should be painted as bigger villains than say the oil companies. I just don't believe going around vandalising and being anti social or worse is acceptable. You say they're creating conversations for you to make people think about the bigger picture. I can see that. Someone says to you "those idiots did this" and then that becomes about more than throwing soup. I get that. But I think those conversations are happening. I feel like people are trying to change. I'm not sure about Governments and water/companies and farmers etc. But pressure is being applied to them. We need more and fast. But imo it's happening. I actually think high profile celebs probably open up more conversations than throwing soup. I don't know. The thread has become draining. The insulate Britain blocking motorways is going to end with people getting hurt. It angers people. Maybe your social circle is the opposite of mine but I don't feel like it would lead to a wider conversation for the people I meet. It just really really pissed people off. Not just people who hate the world, like to see people with frostbite and leave their diesel vans running overnight. Can I ask though, how far would you think it could be acceptable to go? It's only soup. It's only a blocked motorway. At what point would it be too far? Or are all actions justified by the cause? I asked that yesterday and got no reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 5 hours ago, Crewton said: You're confusing a difference of opinion with 'annoyance' but you kind-of proved my point when you said that you had to explain to people what it was all about before they understood the issue. I believe you get a much greater purchase by engaging rather then annoying people. I'm sure that most people don't understand why activists are focusing so much on Britain, a currently much less significant contributor to climate change, rather than, say, China, India or Russia, much bigger contributors to the overall picture and why activists don't appear to be angry over that - so perhaps some energy should be devoted to explaining this apparent anomaly. I know why it is, but do the public in general? I think it’s time some investigation is done into who is funding and organising this rabble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 4 hours ago, Highgate said: Yeah, that would be a good place. What are the pros of the Carbon Zero objective....and what are the cons of maintaining the status quo? Tell you what you tell me the pros and cons of net zero policy in the time scale put forward for this country and factor in the true cost to the environment and finances. of electric cars for a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 31 minutes ago, Archied said: Tell you what you tell me the pros and cons of net zero policy in the time scale put forward for this country and factor in the true cost to the environment and finances. of electric cars for a start That would just be me just arguing for my own point of view on climate change again....and I've done plenty of that in this and other threads. I thought your point was that people never consider the negatives of their own position and the positives of the opposing viewpoint...and that's why I asked you to set us an example and do just that. But you seem reluctant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Archied said: And there you have it folks,,, don’t point out the undeniable truth that I don’t have a leg to stand on demanding how others live they’re lives when I don’t do as I demand of others ,,,,,, ???, that is the style of debate employed by so many of these woke loons now, I prefer a style of debate where people's sentences make grammatical sense. Have you been on the pop Arch? Yours A lovely Woke Loon I'll bow out of the thread for a bit as I've more than made my point. Or should i say others have repeatedly made it for me If people could harness even half the energy that they expend trying to feel like they've won an internet argument with the "woke loons" then we could power the whole planet ? Archied 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 11 minutes ago, Highgate said: That would just be me just arguing for my own point of view on climate change again....and I've done plenty of that in this and other threads. I thought your point was that people never consider the negatives of their own position and the positives of the opposing viewpoint...and that's why I asked you to set us an example and do just that. But you seem reluctant. I’m not reluctant, I want to know from someone who pushes these net zero deadlines government included that they are accounting for not only what comes out of exhaust pipes , what is the true financial cost to reach these deadlines who will bear that cost what is the impact of scrapping all these cars and making / shipping replacement s what is the impact of mining the materials for batteries then disposing of them How do we generate the power to run all these cars is it even possible to have the infrastructure in place to charge them what happens for people who don’t live in places where they can charge overnight will people who can’t afford new electric cars be taxed off the road for petrol ones Will electric cars become more expensive and wasteful over they’re life span than keeping your petrol on once electric cars are subject to road tax as they must do to upkeep roads , they are now pretty much on par per mile with diesel lots more questions but I’m sure you get my drift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: I prefer a style of debate where people's sentences make grammatical sense. Have you been on the pop Arch? Yours A lovely Woke Loon I'll bow out of the thread for a bit as I've more than made my point. Or should i say others have repeatedly made it for me If people could harness even half the energy that they expend trying to feel like they've won an internet argument with the "woke loons" then we could power the whole planet ? Ahh the old last resort grammar snobbery, won’t have a pop at you for it as it’s sad that’s the only recourse when you can’t answer a question Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Archied said: I’m not reluctant, I want to know from someone who pushes these net zero deadlines government included that they are accounting for not only what comes out of exhaust pipes , what is the true financial cost to reach these deadlines who will bear that cost what is the impact of scrapping all these cars and making / shipping replacement s what is the impact of mining the materials for batteries then disposing of them How do we generate the power to run all these cars is it even possible to have the infrastructure in place to charge them what happens for people who don’t live in places where they can charge overnight will people who can’t afford new electric cars be taxed off the road for petrol ones Will electric cars become more expensive and wasteful over they’re life span than keeping your petrol on once electric cars are subject to road tax as they must do to upkeep roads , they are now pretty much on par per mile with diesel lots more questions but I’m sure you get my drift 'actually is my point people only want to talk about the cons in what they disagree with and the pros of what they want to replace it with', That is what you said. And instead of taking the opportunity of breaking that cycle you just keep wanting to discuss the cons of what you disagree with yourself. So when you say 'people only want to talk......', just acknowledge that you are one of those people too. I'll start so, one disadvantage of going green is a reduction on the amount of farmed beef and dairy we eat. Cheeseburgers are pretty tasty as far as I'm concerned. Another disadvantage is that some sustainably grown produce may be more expensive than organic alternatives, putting pressure on those people on the lowest incomes. Your turn, what are some disadvantages in maintaining a high carbon emitting economy? ariotofmyown and JoetheRam 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts