The Ukraine War

[Mick Brolly]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

So what alternative is there to listening to him?

Someone assassinates him hopefully 

[Alph]

13 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Oh good that must make all those dead, injured and or homeless innocent people feel much much better, what a nice chap Putin really is. 

Not what he said or meant and you know that. You've created an argument from his point that he never made. 

Civilian casualties are part of a war, no? That includes Russian and American wars. There were over 2,000 drone strikes in Trump's first 2 years in the Whitehouse and 1000+ under Obama. 

Let's not pretend killing innocent people is just a Putin thing. 

13 000 died to Coalition forces in the Iraq war. 

Thousands died to US and Allies forces in the liberation of Afghanistan

I don't think @BaaLocksever suggested Putin was a nice chap or supported his invasion. He simply offered another perspective and said he believes Russians are showing restraint in this war. 

As did US/UK in their wars. (Not sarcasm). That doesn't mean they should be thanked for it. But it's still true

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

Someone assassinates him hopefully 

Yes, but I imagine he's prepared for that. 

How long do we wait? Ukraine doesn't appear to have long

[Alph]

12 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

It's probably splitting hairs, but I cant think of any western countries have gone to war recently in order to expand their territory (ie annex a neighbour)?

Now if you'd said "regime overthrow in order to install a new order that suits our interests" then no argument

We've done plenty of that

Right now though it looks more likely that Putin wants to subsume Ukraine back into Russia, rather than install a Russian-friendly regime like he has in Belarus?

To hear Putin speak he wants you to believe that he's there on the request of Donetsk and Luhansk Republics, to aid Crimea and to remove all military threats to Russia and their allies neighbours as well as remove a government that supports right wing extremists such as Azov Batallion etc.

The idea that he's there to conquer Ukraine seems to be our perspective. 

Of course Rome forged an empire by "defending" itself and its allies.... so I'm not saying anyone should have to believe him. 

But I think it's fair to draw parallels with our liberations and their invasions. 

I think if we were seeing these images but they were coming from the middle east that we'd be less caring too. But that's just my opinion. I just imagine how we feel now is how many have felt in history when facing thousands of drone strikes from a country prepared to use atomic bombs.

[Gone]

10 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Not what he said or meant and you know that. You've created an argument from his point that he never made. 

Civilian casualties are part of a war, no? That includes Russian and American wars. There were over 2,000 drone strikes in Trump's first 2 years in the Whitehouse and 1000+ under Obama. 

Let's not pretend killing innocent people is just a Putin thing. 

13 000 died to Coalition forces in the Iraq war. 

Thousands died to US and Allies forces in the liberation of Afghanistan

I don't think @BaaLocksever suggested Putin was a nice chap or supported his invasion. He simply offered another perspective and said he believes Russians are showing restraint in this war. 

As did US/UK in their wars. (Not sarcasm). That doesn't mean they should be thanked for it. But it's still true

He said if he had wanted to take it quicker it he could of and it would of been much worse. But he hasn’t implying he must be not so bad after all. Crass IMO. To be honest I’m not interested in another perspective with someone trying to be edgy or clever when innocent poeople are being murdered. 

[Alph]

Just now, TexasRam said:

He said if he had wanted to take it quicker it he could of and it would of been much worse. But he hasn’t implying he must be not so bad after all. Crass IMO. To be honest I’m not interested in another perspective with someone trying to be edgy or clever when innocent poeople are being murdered. 

Do you apply that when the west justifies its own wars? 

 

[Alph]

"Not interested in perspectives"

Wonder how we end up in these wars

[Gone]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

Do you apply that when the west justifies its own wars? 

 

Ah It’s always the West fault ?

[Gone]

1 minute ago, Alpha said:

"Not interested in perspectives"

Wonder how we end up in these wars

No need to wonder, its Mad men in charge that’s how we end up in these Wars, that’s the top and bottom of it 

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

"Not interested in perspectives"

Wonder how we end up in these wars

Because no matter how you deal with Putin, he will always want more. 

You go on about the justifications or reasoning behind Putin's decisions - and that the West have done similar or worse. 

But none of that matters when you're dealing with someone who kills and tortures people because they share a different perspective to himself. So yeah, that's how you end up in wars. 

[Alph]

5 minutes ago, Norman said:

Because no matter how you deal with Putin, he will always want more. 

You go on about the justifications or reasoning behind Putin's decisions - and that the West have done similar or worse. 

But none of that matters when you're dealing with someone who kills and tortures people because they share a different perspective to himself. So yeah, that's how you end up in wars. 

I agree Putin will always want more. 

I'm dead against that. As I am against Western constant interference and war mongering. 

I'm only using Putin's unjustified aggression to kind of hold a mirror up and say look, not so different. 

But we do ours in war torn Middle East where it belongs it seems (see Trevor Noah clip)

[Alph]

13 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Ah It’s always the West fault ?

Nope. Nobody to blame here but Putin.

Ukranian blood on his hands

[Alph]

13 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

No need to wonder, its Mad men in charge that’s how we end up in these Wars, that’s the top and bottom of it 

Agreed. But they aren't all in the east. Which is why I think it's interesting to draw comparisons. 

I think we play world police too much.

But I agree, Putin is acting like a barbarian and there are those close to him that seem more reluctant than him to "liberate" Russians in Ukraine. 

Hopefully they do something about it before time runs out for Ukraine because he isn't going to stop until he's achieved his goals. Because nobody can stop him

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Agreed. But they aren't all in the east. Which is why I think it's interesting to draw comparisons. 

I think we play world police too much.

But I agree, Putin is acting like a barbarian and there are those close to him that seem more reluctant than him to "liberate" Russians in Ukraine. 

Hopefully they do something about it before time runs out for Ukraine because he isn't going to stop until he's achieved his goals. Because nobody can stop him

It will have to come from within Russia. Nobody is going on the offensive against Russia any time soon and Putin is savvy enough to know where the big red line is on that front with his own aggression. He knows he can get away with it in Ukraine and NATO can only stand on the Polish border and shout very loudly about it all unless they fancy a massive war.

Every dictator has a shelf life and when their usefulness is diminished in the eyes of their closest 'allies' then it only typically ends one way. 

None of that of course helps Ukraine in the short term.

Edited March 4, 2022 by JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta

[Stive Pesley]

14 minutes ago, Alpha said:

But I agree, Putin is acting like a barbarian

Agree - at this point, you have to wonder what his "liberated" Ukraine is going to look like

A half empty country, comprised of piles of rubble ?

[Alph]

4 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

It will have to come from within Russia. Nobody is going on the offensive against Russia any time soon and Putin is savvy enough to know where the big red line is on that front with his own aggression. He knows he can get away with it in Ukraine and NATO can only stand on the Polish border and shout very loudly about it all unless they fancy a massive war.

Every dictator has a shelf life and when their usefulness is diminished in the eyes of their closest 'allies' then it only typically ends one way. 

None of that of course helps Ukraine in the short term.

Ukraine was promised protection by the West and Russia when it gave up it's Nuclear weapons. 

Now one invades them while the other watches. 

What will it even be like in the years to come. A buffer state? People that remember the West didn't come? People that live in fear of Russia coming to claim it? A country demilitarised to suit everyone and sat as the West/East buffer?

[TuffLuff]

18 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Agreed. But they aren't all in the east. Which is why I think it's interesting to draw comparisons. 

I think we play world police too much.

But I agree, Putin is acting like a barbarian and there are those close to him that seem more reluctant than him to "liberate" Russians in Ukraine. 

Hopefully they do something about it before time runs out for Ukraine because he isn't going to stop until he's achieved his goals. Because nobody can stop him

Yeah but it’s because the west are loosing our power and influence in the world.

Weve lost a lot of our raw material and industry, so we are now the service providers of the world. Banking, Technology,Communication and our own notion of ‘Policing’. That is seen by us as our role within the world now. 

But the ‘east’ are catching us/have even caught up with us here on these fronts. Look at the rise of Dubai, China etc. Putin knows where the future is and is flexing his muscles because of crap leadership in the west, for the best part of 20 years, has given him the opportunities to.

 

Kinda ranted off that one sentence there, and my ideas of east and west are too simplistic but hopefully you get the idea of what I’m saying.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Genuine question from someone who doesn't follow the news too closely: why can't other Western countries defend Ukraine? I understand they would defend, for example, Poland because they belong to Nato. But is Nato membership really what decides who deserves military support?

[TuffLuff]

4 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Genuine question from someone who doesn't follow the news too closely: why can't other Western countries defend Ukraine? I understand they would defend, for example, Poland because they belong to Nato. But is Nato membership really what decides who deserves military support?

I’m sure you’ll get better answers but I think it’ll set up a bad precedent if NATO got too involved. 
 

[Tamworthram]

13 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Genuine question from someone who doesn't follow the news too closely: why can't other Western countries defend Ukraine? I understand they would defend, for example, Poland because they belong to Nato. But is Nato membership really what decides who deserves military support?

Because that would result in a major international war between Russia and NATO that nobody (except possibly the unfortunate Ukraine pawns) wants. Same reason as a no fly zone is being resisted. 

If a NATO country had been invaded then other NATO members would be obliged to step in and help.