The Ukraine War

[Ramarena]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

Force upon them ? They are neighbouring countries who have been at it for a very long time , they will have to find a way to stop killing each other , do not kid yourself we are only in it for humanitarian reasons and nothing to do with our military and economic interests 

21 minutes ago, Archied said:

Ok let me tell you what I do know ,,,,, Ukraine cannot win this war , never could despite the bull poo that’s been put out from the start , the only way they defeat Russia is if we the west escalate beyond massive funding and get up to our ears in muck and bullets , the longer it goes on the more people die , the weaker the negotiating position for Ukraine is , massive sanctions on Russia from the start ( not pretend ones ) and every avenue used to force cease fire and peace talks used and dare I say it an honest look at whether we the west exasperated things , not a rush to fill the theatre with billions and billions worth of killing machines , rockets ,weapons and dead bodies , but hey let’s pretend we’ve got it right , let’s beat our chests with no surrender calls for as long as we can , 

fact is we either go to war with Russia or keep the deaths rolling for as long as we can with money 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Crewton]

11 minutes ago, Archied said:

Mostly America , it’s not a game of honesty either by the looks of things , anyway I’m just posting how I see things , you see it differently and that’s up to you , im just weary of the same old poo running on loop , kind of happens when you reach my age and have been bothered enough over the years to take an interest in how things  start and pan out 🤷🏻‍♂️

I didn't mean "the funding", I meant who supplied them.

Do you think anyone posting on here actually wants this stuff? 

Russia's annexing of Crimea and invasion of Ukraine could not possibly be justified by anything that Moscow regards as provocation. Their playbook is pure Adolf Hitler 1936-1940. I won't be happy until Putin has met the same end as Adolf. While that man lives, there's a stain on humanity.

 

[Archied]

13 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

 

Sorry I thought you meant force one side or the other to accept what WE thought was the solution as opposed to put pressure to force both sides to the table 🤷🏻‍♂️, let’s be honest the biggest part of this is about holding up or getting out government s based on whether they want to align and get closer to the west or Russia , Ukraine is riddled with corruption and injustice , this is not Switzerland , as always it’s lined with the dead bodies of innocent people 

[Archied]

14 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I didn't mean "the funding", I meant who supplied them.

Do you think anyone posting on here actually wants this stuff? 

Russia's annexing of Crimea and invasion of Ukraine could not possibly be justified by anything that Moscow regards as provocation. Their playbook is pure Adolf Hitler 1936-1940. I won't be happy until Putin has met the same end as Adolf. While that man lives, there's a stain on humanity.

 

If I had a penny for every time every situation and people over the last few years have been called identical to the nazis and or hitler I could stop buying a lottery ticket , I take it Tony Blair was hitler and we were the nazis a few years ago , 

Edited July 13 by Archied

[Ramarena]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

Sorry I thought you meant force one side or the other to accept what WE thought was the solution as opposed to put pressure to force both sides to the table 🤷🏻‍♂️, let’s be honest the biggest part of this is about holding up or getting out government s based on whether they want to align and get closer to the west or Russia , Ukraine is riddled with corruption and injustice , this is not Switzerland , as always it’s lined with the dead bodies of innocent people 

That’s fine, but what will happen if they don’t play ball and there is no peace agreement, as one or neither side agrees, or breaks any agreement.

[Crewton]

17 minutes ago, Archied said:

If I had a penny for every time every situation and people over the last few years have been called identical to the nazis and or hitler I could stop buying a lottery ticket , I take it Tony Blair was hitler and we were the nazis a few years ago , 

I said "Their playbook is pure Adolf Hitler 1936-40" meaning the same path to war - annexations with no response by the west, followed by fake provocations, the use of fifth columnists and contrived/exaggerated persecution of German speakers, insincere "peace talks" with western leaders and the polish government, followed by an unnannounced opening of hostilities and invasion.

Pointing out Putin has used the same tactics and deserves the same end is not the same as saying "Putin is a Nazi".

f****** hell, this is hard.

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Ramarena said:

That’s fine, but what will happen if they don’t play ball and there is no peace agreement, as one or neither side agrees, or breaks any agreement.

Then on they’re own heads be it , us arming one side or the other to the teeth do no good whatsoever,

do you not agree that Ukraine can not win this war ? And if so do you support us cutting the charade and actually start shooting ? Third option keep sending weapons into the arena until Ukraine has no fathers , sons , brothers left alive 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

I said "Their playbook is pure Adolf Hitler 1936-40" meaning the same path to war - annexations with no response by the west, followed by fake provocations, the use of fifth columnists and contrived/exaggerated persecution of German speakers, insincere "peace talks" with western leaders and the polish government, followed by an unnannounced opening of hostilities and invasion.

Pointing out Putin has used the same tactics and deserves the same end is not the same as saying "Putin is a Nazi".

f****** hell, this is hard.

Personally I don’t find people having a different view to mine fxxxxx hard , might be worth you wondering why it does for you 🤷🏻‍♂️,

all the while totally ignoring the glaring facts ( posted here in response to you ) reality s and seriousness of the current course of action be taken by the west but my guess is your all for us joining the fighting to end this war sooner and save lives

Edited July 13 by Archied

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Personally I don’t find people having a different view to mine fxxxxx hard , might be worth you wondering why it does for you 🤷🏻‍♂️,

all the while totally ignoring the glaring facts ( posted here in response to you ) reality s and seriousness of the current course of action be taken by the west but my guess is your all for us joining the fighting to end this war sooner and save lives

Don't try to guess what I think - you don't have the capacity.

[Chester40]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Personally I don’t find people having a different view to mine fxxxxx hard , might be worth you wondering why it does for you 🤷🏻‍♂️,

all the while totally ignoring the glaring facts ( posted here in response to you ) reality s and seriousness of the current course of action be taken by the west but my guess is your all for us joining the fighting to end this war sooner and save lives

Maybe it's frustrating to hear someone seem to take the higher moral and philosophical ground by seemingly saying 'they aren't going to stop themselves being annexed so we should step in and help the Russians to do it'.

Because that's what 'peace talks' seem to be. 

The rules of the 'game' sure are weird though I admit. Us providing 'defensive' capabilities only, which allows us to keep up the pretence we aren't fighting each other.

 

[Archied]

37 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Don't try to guess what I think - you don't have the capacity.

Ahh ,, swearing first,  then insults and I’m not the first in this thread to face this kind of approach if you don’t bow to the narrative , see anything differently , ask difficult question or point out cold hard reality of the situation,

I do have the capacity to know that it’s this kind of behaviour, attitude and aggression that keeps us living in a violent war filled world 

Edited July 13 by Archied

[Archied]

27 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Maybe it's frustrating to hear someone seem to take the higher moral and philosophical ground by seemingly saying 'they aren't going to stop themselves being annexed so we should step in and help the Russians to do it'.

Because that's what 'peace talks' seem to be. 

The rules of the 'game' sure are weird though I admit. Us providing 'defensive' capabilities only, which allows us to keep up the pretence we aren't fighting each other.

 

I personally don’t claim or want to claim any moral high ground though the same accusation could be levelled at claiming we are only there to stand up for the little guy as it’s right and moral ( yet we pick and choose where and for who we do it) , I am simply saying what I see , some see it differently,

nobody has yet told me how they see this ends , if anybody thinks im wrong and that Ukraine wins this war without the west actually getting involved in the fighting then please tell me and if not then there are some stark choices to be made , prolonging the carnage for as long as possible is not the best one in my view and that’s even without me or my family being the ones on the ground being shot at

Edited July 13 by Archied

[jono]

5 hours ago, Archied said:

If that someone is someone who does that whenever and wherever he sees it then you’ve got a bit of a shout , that’s not who we are ( take a look around past and present 🤷🏻‍♂️) 

wonder if you would feel the same had Russia poured in 3 billion in weapons and arms into the Ireland conflict 

Yes, but hang on .. how much effort and money did Russia put in to the so called “eastern separatists” 

Somewhere along the line you have to stand up and be counted. The only reason the West isn’t going all out is because Putin has Nukes and neither side want a Nuclear contest for obvious reasons. The West is doing what it can within huge political and realistic constraints. I think it’s right. It’s what they/we should be doing. I am glad I don’t have to make those decisions. I am also desperately sad for death and mayhem being wrought on all those outside the insulated circles of power. 

And don’t think for a minute that Russia isn’t behind many of the cyber glitches the west has been having. 
 

Before Russia took control of Crimea and subsequently invaded Ukraine there was peace. There was an opportunity to discuss, argue, reach agreement, haggle … The ability to do that on a level playing field stopped when armed men forced their will on others. 
 

The North, south east and west of Europe have been bitching at each other for 20/30 years but none of them got even close to activating an army. Not buying someone’s cheese was about as vindictive as it got.

Despite what ramit might say there is no excuse, no justification nothing Putin can say to legitimise his actions. Garbage about expansionist NATO or a predatory EU .. nope .. that’s just opposition to a primitive mindset. 

 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

Don't try to guess what I think - you don't have the capacity.

Check out the big brain on Crewton

[Archied]

3 minutes ago, jono said:

Yes, but hang on .. how much effort and money did Russia put in to the so called “eastern separatists” 

Somewhere along the line you have to stand up and be counted. The only reason the West isn’t going all out is because Putin has Nukes and neither side want a Nuclear contest for obvious reasons. The West is doing what it can within huge political and realistic constraints. I think it’s right. It’s what they/we should be doing. I am glad I don’t have to make those decisions. I am also desperately sad for death and mayhem being wrought on all those outside the insulated circles of power. 

And don’t think for a minute that Russia isn’t behind many of the cyber glitches the west has been having. 
 

Before Russia took control of Crimea and subsequently invaded Ukraine there was peace. There was an opportunity to discuss, argue, reach agreement, haggle … The ability to do that on a level playing field stopped when armed men forced their will on others. 
 

The North, south east and west of Europe have been bitching at each other for 20/30 years but none of them got even close to activating an army. Not buying someone’s cheese was about as vindictive as it got.

Despite what ramit might say there is no excuse, no justification nothing Putin can say to legitimise his actions. Garbage about expansionist NATO or a predatory EU .. nope .. that’s just opposition to a primitive mindset. 

 

Look let’s be very clear , I struggle with the whole situation that’s going on and I can see how it’s easy to think we are standing up to a bully and protecting a weaker opponent but the reality is that that is not what we are doing , what we are doing is arming up and talking up the weaker opponent and pushing him back into the ring in full knowledge that he is going to get destroyed , killed and take a far worse and more prolonged beating , there’s a part of me that thinks that’s pretty bad and wonders why we want to do that , it certainly doesn’t have that knight in shining armour super hero to the rescue feel to me 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Ramarena]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

Then on they’re own heads be it , us arming one side or the other to the teeth do no good whatsoever,

do you not agree that Ukraine can not win this war ? And if so do you support us cutting the charade and actually start shooting ? Third option keep sending weapons into the arena until Ukraine has no fathers , sons , brothers left alive 

It’s not a given that they cannot at least freeze the war, or even win. Is it a tall order, of course. 

But remember, everyone was saying Ukraine would fall to Russia within a week………Yet they are still here, with a thrown together army, a rag tag air force and no navy. Yet they are still fighting off the Russian meatwaves.

North Korea, Iran and China will continue to fund and arm Russia until there are no Ukrainian or Russian (whichever gives first) fathers, brothers or sons, anyways.

We pull our help from Ukraine and eventually it will cease to exist, the above mentioned countries will ensure it!

Edited July 13 by Ramarena

[Archied]

5 hours ago, Ramarena said:

It’s not a given that they cannot at least freeze the war, or even win. Is it a tall order, of course. 

But remember, everyone was saying Ukraine would fall to Russia within a week………Yet they are still here, with a thrown together army, a rag tag air force and no navy. Yet they are still fighting off the Russian meatwaves.

North Korea, Iran and China will continue to fund and arm Russia until there are no Ukrainian or Russian (whichever gives first) fathers, brothers or sons, anyways.

We pull our help from Ukraine and eventually it will cease to exist, the above mentioned countries will ensure it!

So those countries arming and funding Russia have nothing to do with us , Europe and USA funding and arming Ukraine ,

this has bugger all to do with whether the Ukraine exists , it’s all about who controls it as a very valuable strategic military , economic ,mineral rich and food producing area of Eastern Europe and has been for a very long time ,

when you say they are still here you obviously don’t mean the thousands of people on both sides who are not still here , Ukraine would not allow men to choose to leave if they thought death and the death of they’re families was more important than who control s the area , Russia have done the same thing with conscription, we are funding this because we want a western leaning government in place ,not because we care about lives and so called democracy, thousands die in gazza but we arm Isreal , thousands die world wide that we turn a blind eye to ,

to be fair though you state that you believe there’s a chance Ukraine wins this war , I don’t and that’s always been my point , many years ago someone gave me a bit of advice that I’ve always found useful,,, keep your own side of the street clean , it’s helped me massively when situations arose that I struggle with which I could easily make a whole lot worse than they need be 

[Chester40]

18 minutes ago, Archied said:

So those countries arming and funding Russia have nothing to do with us , Europe and USA funding and arming Ukraine ,

this has bugger all to do with whether the Ukraine exists , it’s all about who controls it as a very valuable strategic military , economic ,mineral rich and food producing area of Eastern Europe and has been for a very long time ,

when you say they are still here you obviously don’t mean the thousands of people on both sides who are not still here , Ukraine would not allow men to choose to leave if they thought death and the death of they’re families was more important than who control s the area , Russia have done the same thing with conscription, we are funding this because we want a western leaning government in place ,not because we care about lives and so called democracy, thousands die in gazza but we arm Isreal , thousands die world wide that we turn a blind eye to ,

to be fair though you state that you believe there’s a chance Ukraine wins this war , I don’t and that’s always been my point , many years ago someone gave me a bit of advice that I’ve always found useful,,, keep your own side of the street clean , it’s helped me massively when situations arose that I struggle with which I could easily make a whole lot worse than they need be 

Your argument is that they can't win, so why bother arming them. 

So if they could,  would you? Even if it leads to more bloodshed?

It seems a practical decision on your part. You're going to lose anyway so we aren't helping/arming you.  

So what's the issue with the west making a practical decision that Russia are dangerous to our way of life and if we want to cripple them, better to help Ukraine rather than either let them exert more power or end up fighting them ourselves?

[jono]

7 hours ago, Archied said:

Look let’s be very clear , I struggle with the whole situation that’s going on and I can see how it’s easy to think we are standing up to a bully and protecting a weaker opponent but the reality is that that is not what we are doing , what we are doing is arming up and talking up the weaker opponent and pushing him back into the ring in full knowledge that he is going to get destroyed , killed and take a far worse and more prolonged beating , there’s a part of me that thinks that’s pretty bad and wonders why we want to do that , it certainly doesn’t have that knight in shining armour super hero to the rescue feel to me 🤷🏻‍♂️

Consider this

We are arming them and helping for larger goals than a knight in shining armour. Those larger goals are that we’d rather not be next - which strikes me as a perfectly valid reason. 
 

There’s a fire in your neighbours house, you’re a bit of a scaredy cat so you don’t go and help. But he’s next door to your house which has a thatched roof. Lending him a hose pipe might not be entirely altruistic but it’s common sense.

[GboroRam]

This conflict ends with the destruction of one side or a ceasefire on agreed terms. 

If Russia loses enough money and soldiers, their terms will be more palatable to Ukraine. At present I can see Russia agreeing to keeping the territory they've taken in return for peace, however that is not a deal that Zelensky is prepared to accept. And I don't blame him - I wouldn't trust Putin to stick to any deal either. 

It's far more likely that Ukraine will lose than win, but not giving them any chance to defend themselves will certainly result in a Russian victory. 

With the spate of factories mysteriously burning down in Poland, I fully understand why neighbours are nervous about what might happen next.