The Ukraine War

[ramit]

7 hours ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

Putin isn’t known for sticking to agreements he has made. 

Is the USA known for sticking to agreements?

Negotiations must be attempted, or would you prefer war in Europe?

[Crewton]

43 minutes ago, ramit said:

You really believe that? 

The western powers want to do away with competition, they will not stop their aggression towards Russia and China.

I don't see the Western Powers (sic) transgressing across Russia or China's borders, destroying their cities, murdering their citizens, stealing their children and brainwashing them, bullying smaller countries into ceding land and coastal waters in the name of "security concerns", flying into their airspace, sailing through their territorial waters, sending their mercenaries to support autocratic and oppressive regimes across Africa in exchange for mineral rights. Where is this western aggression of which you speak?

Tell me, because I'd like to know.

And while we're on the subject, why should unprovoked aggression and war crimes be rewarded with territory? 

[Reggie Greenwood]

2 minutes ago, ramit said:

Is the USA known for sticking to agreements?

Negotiations must be attempted, or would you prefer war in Europe?

Not even going to attempt to reply to that nonsense. 

[Highgate]

18 minutes ago, ramit said:

Again, no.  The two sides must negotiate a halt to hostilities and then work out an agreement for a lasting peace.

If you were Ukraine, how much territory are you willing to hand over to Russia in order for them to agree to peace? Because Putin has made it clear, even in the last few days, that the 4 annexed territories (including those cities they haven't captured) would become part of Russia in exchange for any halting of the invasion. Would you expect a Ukrainian to accept those conditions?

[Crewton]

Vucic is of course a man with a very chequered past - a man who threatened  to kill 100 Muslims for every single Serb killed by Nato bombs, a man who defended the actions of Milosevic and Mladic in the Bosnian war, who dreamed of  Greater Serbia, and who now runs an oppressive and authoritarian regime.

A settlement between Russia and Ukraine that rewards Putin with all he is demanding would suit him down to the ground because it would set a helpful precedent.

[ramit]

It's a simple choice, do we want war or peace?

I choose peace and reason.

War is the defeat of reason, IOW madness and so support for war is madness IMO.

I posted an interview with warnings of what many see on the horizon and for it received much opposition.

Sadly, peace has indeed become a forbidden word.

 

[Highgate]

24 minutes ago, ramit said:

It's a simple choice, do we want war or peace?

I choose peace and reason.

War is the defeat of reason, IOW madness and so support for war is madness IMO.

I posted an interview with warnings of what many see on the horizon and for it received much opposition.

Sadly, peace has indeed become a forbidden word.

 

Everyone wants peace... but you can't just let aggressive neighbours steal chunks your land without a fight surely. Ukrainians have just been unlucky to live next to a violent despot who has no respect for Ukraine's history or sovereignty.  

The only way for Ukraine to achieve peace now is to hand over part of Ukraine to Russia, and it's understandable that is unacceptable for most Ukrainians.

[ramit]

7 hours ago, Highgate said:

Everyone wants peace... but you can't just let aggressive neighbours steal chunks your land without a fight surely. Ukrainians have just been unlucky to live next to a violent despot who has no respect for Ukraine's history or sovereignty.  

The only way for Ukraine to achieve peace now is to hand over part of Ukraine to Russia, and it's understandable that is unacceptable for most Ukrainians.

If everyone wants peace, why does hardly anyone support it?  They support it on conditions of their side winning?  That is not support for peace, but rather continuing war.  That "but" you added illustrates that point.

[Ram-Alf]

23 minutes ago, ramit said:

If everyone wants peace, why does hardly anyone support it?  They support it on conditions of their side winning?  That is not support for peace, but rather continuing war.  That "but" you added illustrates that point.

If your Country was invaded, 10s on thousands killed, Women raped, Children butchered, Your family all killed, 1000s of square miles of your land taken, You're told you can't have any friends to support you when we take more land off you.

Would you want peace or would you be prepared to fight on?

Genuine question  

[Highgate]

37 minutes ago, ramit said:

If everyone wants peace, why does hardly anyone support it?  They support it on conditions of their side winning?  That is not support for peace, but rather continuing war.  That "but" you added illustrates that point.

It's not reasonable to expect an invaded country not lift a finger in their own defence.. What do think the Ukrainians should have done when Russia invaded? Just sit there and say 'we want peace'? How much of their country would Putin have left them in those circumstances?

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Highgate said:

It's not reasonable to expect an invaded country not lift a finger in their own defence.. What do think the Ukrainians should have done when Russia invaded? Just sit there and say 'we want peace'? How much of their country would Putin have left them in those circumstances?

Ukraine with the assistance of the western powers have done more than lift a finger, hundreds of thousands are dead on both sides and there seems no end to the slaughter.  War weariness must at some point kick in.  I am thinking that is already happening on both sides.

The Donbas area is largely populated by people of Russian origin.  I am inclined to think that those suffering from the war in those regions would want it to stop, also the west Ukrainians suffering would surely want an end to the war, while some of their family members are still left.  It matters not what they want though, nor the Ukrainian authorities, these decisions are made by the USA who in my opinion do not care about Ukraine or it's suffering inhabitants, for they want to conduct a proxy war against Russia there, that is all that concerns them and I am of the opinion that this matter will get out of hand sooner, rather than later and Europe will again suffer greatly.

To make peace takes compromise from both sides and that seemingly cannot happen without great pressure from the populations of the warring countries.  I think it is up to you and me, I know where I stand, stand with me brother.

 

Edited June 17 by ramit
typo

[Mick Brolly]

You wouldn't think Russia had done any wrong when you read some of the posts on here quite amazing 

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

The Donbas area is largely populated by people of Russian origin. 

The Sudetenland was largely populated by people of German origin...Britain and France agreed that Germany should annex it, That worked out well didn't it.

And you haven't answered my question...what if your country was invaded...what would you do fight or capitulate?  

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, ramit said:

Ukraine with the assistance of the western powers have done more than lift a finger, hundreds of thousands are dead on both sides and there seems no end to the slaughter.  War weariness must at some point kick in.  I am thinking that is already happening on both sides.

The Donbas area is largely populated by people of Russian origin.  I am inclined to think that those suffering from the war in those regions would want it to stop, also the west Ukrainians suffering would surely want an end to the war, while some of their family members are still left.  It matters not what they want though, nor the Ukrainian authorities, these decisions are made by the USA who in my opinion do not care about Ukraine or it's suffering inhabitants, for they want to conduct a proxy war against Russia there, that is all that concerns them and I am of the opinion that this matter will get out of hand sooner, rather than later and Europe will again suffer greatly.

To make peace takes compromise from both sides and that seemingly cannot happen without great pressure from the populations of the warring countries.  I think it is up to you and me, I know where I stand, stand with me brother.

 

If Trump gets in, you'll probably get your wish, because he's promised to end the war in a day. This will involve giving Putin everything he wants, including barring Ukraine from NATO so that they will forever be at the mercy of Putin and those who succeed him. But then, you'll be content and unthreatened up there in the Arctic Circle and won't have to worry about what happens next, perhaps to Georgia, perhaps to Moldova, and God knows who else.

BTW - you do know how it came to pass that Donbass and Crimea is occupied by majority (but not entirely) Russian-speaking people, rather than Ukrainians and Tatars, don't you? If you don't, then I suggest you brush up on the Holodomor and the persecution of the Tatars both historically and in the 21st century.

[Highgate]

Just now, ramit said:

Ukraine with the assistance of the western powers have done more than lift a finger, hundreds of thousands are dead on both sides and there seems no end to the slaughter.  War weariness must at some point kick in.  I am thinking that is already happening on both sides.

The Donbas area is largely populated by people of Russian origin.  I am inclined to think that those suffering from the war in those regions would want it to stop, also the west Ukrainians suffering would surely want an end to the war, while some of their family members are still left.  It matters not what they want though, nor the Ukrainian authorities, these decisions are made by the USA who in my opinion do not care about Ukraine or it's suffering inhabitants, for they want to conduct a proxy war against Russia there, that is all that concerns them and I am of the opinion that this matter will get out of hand sooner, rather than later and Europe will again suffer greatly.

To make peace takes compromise from both sides and that seemingly cannot happen without great pressure from the populations of the warring countries.  I think it is up to you and me, I know where I stand, stand with me brother.

 

I don't agree that the Ukrainians are puppets of the West or the US. They are fighting against the Russian invasion because they are defending their country. They are obviously supported and assisted by the west but definitely not controlled by them. However the opinion that Washington is calling all the shots is very much the view spread by the Kremlin and perhaps some there even believe it to be true.  Are some in Washington pleased that Russia is bogged down in a war?  Probably, there are a wide range of opinions even in the US government, and certainly weapons manufacturers and those sponsored by them are delighted with Putin's invasion and the profits it's bringing them.

The Donbas people are of mixed origin, largely Russian speakers yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are Russian. Many there certainly wanted Ukraine to lean towards Russia rather than to the West before war broke out...but that's not the same as wanting to lose their independence and be annexed by Russia.  Also, even less so than Crimea, the Donbas is not traditionally a Russian area, most of the ethnic Russians living in the Donbas are there because of Stalin's planned starvation of Ukrainians in the 1930s and his rapid repopulation of the area with Russian settlers. 

Russia really doesn't have to make any compromises to end this war, it can simply withdraw from the Donbas area and go back to a Russia with it's sovereignty intact.  The only damage done (apart from all the unnecessary deaths that have already occurred), would be to Putin's reputation within Russia.  It's Ukraine that's being asked to hand over a part of it's country.... it's a compromise that most countries would refuse if it were in their power to do so.  

Edited June 17 by Highgate

[Crewton]

47 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I don't agree that the Ukrainians are puppets of the West or the US. They are fighting against the Russian invasion because they are defending their country. They are obviously supported and assisted by the west but definitely not controlled by them. However the opinion that Washington is calling all the shots is very much the view spread by the Kremlin and perhaps some there even believe it to be true.  Are some in Washington pleased that Russia is bogged down in a war?  Probably, there are a wide range of opinions even in the US government, and certainly weapons manufacturers and those sponsored by them are delighted with Putin's invasion and the profits it's bringing them.

The Donbas people are of mixed origin, largely Russian speakers yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are Russian. Many there certainly wanted Ukraine to lean towards Russia rather than to the West before war broke out...but that's not the same as wanting to lose their independence and be annexed by Russia.  Also, even less so than Crimea, the Donbas is not traditionally a Russian area, most of the ethnic Russians living in the Donbas are there because of Stalin's planned starvation of Ukrainians in the 1930s and his rapid repopulation of the area with Russian settlers. 

Russia really doesn't have to make any compromises to end this war, it can simply withdraw from the Donbas area and go back to a Russia with it's sovereignty intact.  The only damage done (apart from all the unnecessary deaths that have already occurred), would be to Putin's reputation within Russia.  It's Ukraine that's being asked to hand over a part of it's country.... it's a compromise that most countries would refuse if it were in their power to do so.  

Well put.

[ramit]

15 hours ago, Crewton said:

If Trump gets in, you'll probably get your wish, because he's promised to end the war in a day. This will involve giving Putin everything he wants, including barring Ukraine from NATO so that they will forever be at the mercy of Putin and those who succeed him. But then, you'll be content and unthreatened up there in the Arctic Circle and won't have to worry about what happens next, perhaps to Georgia, perhaps to Moldova, and God knows who else.

BTW - you do know how it came to pass that Donbass and Crimea is occupied by majority (but not entirely) Russian-speaking people, rather than Ukrainians and Tatars, don't you? If you don't, then I suggest you brush up on the Holodomor and the persecution of the Tatars both historically and in the 21st century.

Iceland would be safer if it were not in NATO.  Membership was forced on the citizens by a traitorous government, those who demonstrated against the government decision were teargassed and beaten with batons by police and helper thugs.  My father was 14 and received a baton to the head from behind on that day.  NATO may rot for all I care, I hope it does.

Crimea is not sovereign Ukrainian territory, it was transferred to Ukraine within the Soviet Union by Khrushchev for administrative purposes.  When the Soviet Union ended, that decision ended with it.

Edited June 18 by ramit
typo

[Crewton]

3 hours ago, ramit said:

Iceland would be safer if it were not in NATO.  Membership was forced on the citizens by a traitorous government, those who demonstrated against the government decision were teargassed and beaten with batons by police and helper thugs.  My father was 14 and received a baton to the head from behind on that day.  NATO may rot for all I care, I hope it does.

Crimea is not sovereign Ukrainian territory, it was transferred to Ukraine within the Soviet Union by Khrushchev for administrative purposes.  When the Soviet Union ended, that decision ended with it.

You make it sound like ALL Icelanders were opposed to NATO membership, when in reality many residents of Reykjavik answered the government's call to defend parliament from anti-NATO protesters while the vote (passed by a large majority) took place. Apparently the police only became involved when the protesters started to pelt the building with rocks. NATO didn't give your Dad a whack, the local Plod did. But if you hate NATO so much because of that, how can you expect Ukrainians to accept the annexation of a quarter of their country by the same people who've oppressed them for centuries?

BTW, irrespective of who traditionally "owned" Crimea, natural justice says it belongs to the Tatars, because it's been their homeland for centuries and, once again, Russia has been forcing them out and into exile to be replaced with more Russians.

 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

You make it sound like ALL Icelanders were opposed to NATO membership, when in reality many residents of Reykjavik answered the government's call to defend parliament from anti-NATO protesters while the vote (passed by a large majority) took place. Apparently the police only became involved when the protesters started to pelt the building with rocks. NATO didn't give your Dad a whack, the local Plod did. But if you hate NATO so much because of that, how can you expect Ukrainians to accept the annexation of a quarter of their country by the same people who've oppressed them for centuries?

BTW, irrespective of who traditionally "owned" Crimea, natural justice says it belongs to the Tatars, because it's been their homeland for centuries and, once again, Russia has been forcing them out and into exile to be replaced with more Russians.

 

The NATO membership question should have gone to a vote.  Those residents you mentioned were supplied with batons and used them unsparingly from the start, when protestors tried to defend themselves the police resorted to teargassing them.  I disapprove of NATO for more reasons than what happened to father, it is the military arm of the American empire, an entity I do not support for too many reasons to list here.

The Ukraine war is a mess, both sides are at fault.  The Kiev coup, yes it was a coup, orchestrated from Washington, placed a Russia hostile government in place, one that moved aggressively on the Russian speaking eastern residents, forbidding their language even.

Much blood has been spilled, many innocents died.  We can play the blame game until blue in the face, it won't stop the slaughter, only negotiations will.  More need to speak out for peace IMO.

[Crewton]

4 minutes ago, ramit said:

The NATO membership question should have gone to a vote.  Those residents you mentioned were supplied with batons and used them unsparingly from the start, when protestors tried to defend themselves the police resorted to teargassing them.  I disapprove of NATO for more reasons than what happened to father, it is the military arm of the American empire, an entity I do not support for too many reasons to list here.

The Ukraine war is a mess, both sides are at fault.  The Kiev coup, yes it was a coup, orchestrated from Washington, placed a Russia hostile government in place, one that moved aggressively on the Russian speaking eastern residents, forbidding their language even.

Much blood has been spilled, many innocents died.  We can play the blame game until blue in the face, it won't stop the slaughter, only negotiations will.  More need to speak out for peace IMO.

You obviously get your opinions of the Ukrainian war from the same type of source (incidentally, the same ones who spin a pro-Assad. pro-Russian narrative about the Syrian War), the people who push a rhetoric about oppression of Russian-speakers and the Maidan revolution that has been comprehensively disproven by real journalists and which is an insult to Ukrainians.

I could say allot more but I'll stop here because you have a closed mind and a poor understanding of history and that clearly isn't going to be changed by anything I post.