The Ukraine War

[uttoxram75]

I don't know enough about the Russia - Ukraine conflict to really debate it but it does remind me of the British  - Ireland stuff where the more powerful country planted people in a foreign country to demand ownership of that land.

Ulster = Donbass.

[Wolfie]

10 hours ago, Highgate said:

 

And I agree that the West made mistakes in the years leading up to this war.  But nothing that forced Russia into an invasion in my opinion. For me, the vast majority of blame for the war lies with one man, and I think we all know who that man is. 

 

Richard Keogh.

[Alph]

12 hours ago, Highgate said:

Yes, I can definitely agree with that. 

And I agree that the West made mistakes in the years leading up to this war.  But nothing that forced Russia into an invasion in my opinion. For me, the vast majority of blame for the war lies with one man, and I think we all know who that man is.  

And whatever the West may have done before the invasion, I'm really not sure what they could have done differently since the war started, unless they were ok with Putin taking over Ukraine, all the way to the banks of the Dnieper at least. 

 

That's what exhausted the thread for some people earlier on. 

It muddied the waters when talking about how The West may have antagonised and pressured Russia. 

It's seems Prigozhin was correct about one thing. That the way things are done in Russia are through bribes and blackmail which is why you have such  incompetence within the Russian military. 

This invasion was definitely meant to be done and dusted within a month and Ukraine forced into terms that reject the west and NATO. 

It's not often America do things right but I agree, they couldn't have acted any differently since the invasion. It's gone beautifully well for The West though. Perhaps Putin is the deepest cover CIA agent? 

I imagine a couple of decades or so down the line we'll face a similar problem but replace Russia with China and Oil with tech?

[Ramarena]

20 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

I don't know enough about the Russia - Ukraine conflict to really debate it but it does remind me of the British  - Ireland stuff where the more powerful country planted people in a foreign country to demand ownership of that land.

Ulster = Donbass.

Yes to an extent.

It's true there are plenty Russian speakers and ethnic Russian's in Ukraine, that's the legacy of the USSR and there are a number of Ukrainians who long(ed) for the good old day's. I think a few of these people have woken up to what life under Russia really means. 

However, as you mention Russia has also rammed in a load of people into areas like Donbass, Crimea, etc, since 2014. Then we have the filtration camps after they invaded, proper nasty stuff. I wonder where those people were taken?

Ultimately, despite all this, Ukrainian's lands are theirs and theirs alone. They should have to fight an aggressor to maintain/retrieve them!

 

[i-Ram]

Worth a bump this thread, given we are once again more likely to die from nuclear radiation than a respiratory virus.  Anyone know the whereabouts of Prigozhin, Surovikin or Medvedev? 

[uttoxram75]

19 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Anyone know the whereabouts of Prigozhin, Surovikin or Medvedev? 

Probably in the House of Lords with the other Russians.

[Ram-Alf]

12 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Worth a bump this thread, given we are once again more likely to die from nuclear radiation than a respiratory virus.  Anyone know the whereabouts of Prigozhin, Surovikin or Medvedev? 

Medvedev supposedly in Oman, Surovkin allegedly under arrest, Prigozhin...hhmmm, There is a former empty military base in Belarus which is now full of tents row after row spotted by a USA spy satellite. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66052061?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA'

[Alph]

Any idea when Israel face sanctions? 

Oh The West will certainly come down hard on them. By this time next week the country will be in a chokehold as tight as the Russians

If there's one thing we're sure of now it's that aggressive expansionism and military invasions ending in occupation will be severely punished. 

Yeah. Any minute now.

[Highgate]

16 hours ago, Alpha said:

Any idea when Israel face sanctions? 

Oh The West will certainly come down hard on them. By this time next week the country will be in a chokehold as tight as the Russians

If there's one thing we're sure of now it's that aggressive expansionism and military invasions ending in occupation will be severely punished. 

Yeah. Any minute now.

Israel has the almost unconditional support of the US, so yeah, it won't ever happen it seems.  As a permanent member of the UN Security council the US has vetoed more than 50 UN resolutions critical of Israel over the past few decades.  I think it's reasonable to conclude that the US has never been even handed in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's biased in favour of Israel and everyone knows it's biased in favour of Israel.  

And because of hopelessly flawed structure of the UN (the security council having permanent members that can simply veto anything for example), it's impossible for the UN to do anything.  It's not fair, but that's how it is and it's not likely to change anytime soon. 

 

[Alph]

25 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Israel has the almost unconditional support of the US, so yeah, it won't ever happen it seems.  As a permanent member of the UN Security council the US has vetoed more than 50 UN resolutions critical of Israel over the past few decades.  I think it's reasonable to conclude that the US has never been even handed in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's biased in favour of Israel and everyone knows it's biased in favour of Israel.  

And because of hopelessly flawed structure of the UN (the security council having permanent members that can simply veto anything for example), it's impossible for the UN to do anything.  It's not fair, but that's how it is and it's not likely to change anytime soon. 

 

That's why I love it when America starts preaching over Russia/Ukraine.

Warmongers given the job of world police. 

[Ramarena]

26 minutes ago, Alpha said:

That's why I love it when America starts preaching over Russia/Ukraine.

Warmongers given the job of world police. 

Yep it's certainly contradictory. The pro-Israel elements in the US are so powerful and dictate foreign policy.  

To be fair there are growing voices in the Democratic Party that are highly critical of their countries stance on Israel/Palestine especially this latest incursion. But they aren't prominent/powerful enough yet. There is also polling that suggests Americans are becoming more sympathetic to Palestines plight as time progresses. 

But none of this is enough, especially when pro-Israel groups donate so heavily during each presidential campaign, along side the historic links between the US evangelical Christians and Israel, ironically the evangelicals are increasingly warming to the Russians.

All that said, it does not make the stance of the US on Ukraine wrong.

[Ramarena]

On 01/07/2023 at 04:58, The Last Post said:

Medvedev supposedly in Oman, Surovkin allegedly under arrest, Prigozhin...hhmmm, There is a former empty military base in Belarus which is now full of tents row after row spotted by a USA spy satellite. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66052061?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA'

 

On 30/06/2023 at 16:19, i-Ram said:

Worth a bump this thread, given we are once again more likely to die from nuclear radiation than a respiratory virus.  Anyone know the whereabouts of Prigozhin, Surovikin or Medvedev? 

Ukrainian Pravada claims Prigozhin was in St Petersburg yesterday to claim back weapons that had been taken when one of his house was raided after the coup/mutiny. 

\https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/5/7409917/

As @The Last Post say's Surovkin hasn't been seen since the Wagner meltdown and his deputy has been arrested, which has fuelled the claims he's under house arrest. 

Medvedev is doing his usual thing of going anywhere that'll host him, threatening nuclear war and telling everyone that Ukraine is Russian and Russia will stop at nothing to win. 

Seem's like Belarus politicians are now dying suddenly in mysterious circumstances as well.

On the front line, there seems to be good progress in the Bakhmut and Klishchiivka areas, along with Ukraine creating a bridgehead on the occupied side of the Dnipro river (near where the dam was blown).

Sky has a map from Rybar (Russian war blogger) from early today and then updated 4 hours later showing Ukranian progress.

 

Obviously the ZPP is a concern, although the claims that it'd be like a nuclear bomb going off are overstated, the majority of the plant is offline, but it won't stop Russia threatening armageddon. 

 

[Ram-Alf]

42 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

 

Seem's like Belarus politicians are now dying suddenly in mysterious circumstances as well.

 

 

Hhhmmm...makes you wonder

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/mounting-death-toll-putin-ally-and-belarusian-minister-dies-under-mysterious-circumstances-at-47-years-old/ar-AA1dsio2

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, Alpha said:

That's why I love it when America starts preaching over Russia/Ukraine.

Warmongers given the job of world police. 

You might want to watch a bit of Russian state media mate. Makes US hypocrisy seem trifling.

Equally, I've never seen the US holding the world to ransom with the threat of nuclear war, so if one warmonger weakens an even worse one, we should all be quite content about it really. You need to look at the wars that are not visible to the naked eye to see why the US and the West in general are going after Russia and lest you forget, it was Russia that started a war in Europe, not America.

[Alph]

2 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

You might want to watch a bit of Russian state media mate. Makes US hypocrisy seem trifling.

Equally, I've never seen the US holding the world to ransom with the threat of nuclear war, so if one warmonger weakens an even worse one, we should all be quite content about it really. You need to look at the wars that are not visible to the naked eye to see why the US and the West in general are going after Russia and lest you forget, it was Russia that started a war in Europe, not America.

I'm not here to defend Russia. Not at all. I was speaking on Israel and Palestine and the similarities that are allowed in one part of the world but not the other. And how they talk about people's rights for peace and freedom. I won't be dragged into more debate on Russia/Soviet pipe dreams v America/Western NATO expansion. I've nothing but sympathy for much of Ukraine (Azov battalion and similar groups not included). 

America are responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The herbicide and napalm attacks. The Gulf of Tonkin incident and other dubious claims. The attempts by Trump to hide drone strikes. America have been in a constant state of war. 

I'll not sit here and defend Russia. But there's absolutely no way I'll miss an opportunity to mock America's world policing efforts and laughably ironic heartwarming tales of freedom and democracy when they have massively financially supported and allowed (should I say enthusiastically encouraged) Israel to enjoy 50 years of aggressive murderous expansion. 

I'm all for Ukraine's sovereignty. No problem at all with The West supporting Ukraine's defence.

Just please, could sleepy Joe and his warmonger friends spare us the "we will fight injustice anywhere" type speeches while they're just the other side of the coin. 

It's good to see companies refusing to do business with Russia in an attempt to apply pressure. 

If only Trip Advisor, JCB and other companies could stop supporting illegal Israeli settlements that the UN and Amnesty International like to discuss but it constantly seems to fall on deaf ears. 

In fact you can book a trip today to an illegal Israeli settlement where Palestinian homes were destroyed. And you can even drink fresh water and charge your phone. Unless you're Palestinian living in that land for the last 40+ years. Then of course you don't have access to these things. It could even be some of those billions of US dollars that funded the energy supply. 

In short, feck Russia. But absolutely feck America too. And a sweet feck off to the Israeli invaders who have enjoyed over 50 years destroying towns, villages and lives. 

(On a slightly pointless note, I quite like Russia and America to visit. So purely feck them at a government level)

 

[Ram-Alf]

7 hours ago, Alpha said:

 

(On a slightly pointless note, I quite like Russia and America to visit. So purely feck them at a government level

 

[Ram-Alf]

Guess...go on guess😁

[Ramarena]

31 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Guess...go on guess😁

Saw these Prigozhin pics this morning, but haven’t yet caught up with the story behind them, if there really is one.

They look fake as fook, maybe someone from the Kremlin or FSB has decided to put them out to try and show they’ve progressed past the Sims 3 level of ineptitude.

[Ramarena]

After the discussion last week on sources for info on this conflict. I’d thought I’d mention a distinct change with some of the pro-Ukraine accounts that’s started happening over the last couple of weeks.

Recent changes to Twitter and the general Twitter crackdown/suspension on pro-Ukrainian accounts, has led a number of those accounts to move over partially (and some fully) to Mastodon.

This has led to a definite gap in the English speaking information space as not as many people are using Mastodon yet, although user numbers are going up as people leave Twitter.

I’ve personally never used either much, but for those that do and have noticed a change, this seems to be the direction of travel for English speaking pro-Ukrainian accounts.

[Ram-Alf]

8 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Saw these Prigozhin pics this morning, but haven’t yet caught up with the story behind them, if there really is one.

They look fake as fook, maybe someone from the Kremlin or FSB has decided to put them out to try and show they’ve progressed past the Sims 3 level of ineptitude.

More pics, But this could be from anywhere, Russians claiming they're from his mansion...

https://news.yahoo.com/wigs-sledgehammer-gold-bars-lot-190754358.html