Administration is it the best option now

[Spanish]

44 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

 

 

Could MJD potentially pick-up the club, stadium and Academy for £1 ... if my interpretation of what you and Charlotte have said is correct?

Are you saying that the "sale" of the stadium and/or Academy, were not actually sales - but they are simply collateral for loans?

But in that case, why would loan repayments be being made into DCFC?

Or were the loans - not loans of cash, but loans of buildings?

Are you saying ... DCFC loaned £80m* (?) to a business entity - but that entity did not receive cash, but instead received a stadium worth (£80m*). And then this separate entity now makes loan repayments to DCFC.

* Or whatever was the value of the stadium.

Presumably, this separate Stadium entity now own the stadium, but either way, they owe DCFC £80m*?

Therefore, at any point, DCFC could call-in this debt, and ask the Stadium Entity to either pay back £80m, or ask for the stadium back?

And if the stadium was given back as part of repayment, DCFC would then own it again, and a hypothetical Administrator could sell it.

Is any of this correct so far?

But, if the Stadium entity has taken a loan from Mr Dell at MJD, using the Academy as collateral for security (presuming that the Academy is owned by either the Stadium Entity, or possibly a separate Academy entity ...

Then, if DCFC went into administration ... and if the Stadium Entity went into administration and defaulted on its loan to MJD ... 

 ... MJD would own the Academy, and probably the stadium.

Could MJD then choose to buy DCFC from the Administrator for a knock down price because DCFC would not have a Stadium or Academy (Training Centre)? Or potentially buy it for £1 if no-one else would take on a club with debts, and with DCFC then bring a club without a stadium or Training Centre or Academy?

And then ... would MJD end up owning the club, the Stadium and the Academy and Training Centre (along with the club's footballing debts) ... in effect, for whatever amount it was that MJD loaned to the Stadium Entity.

But, if someone else were to buy DCFC in the meantime, then, presumably, they could could call in the debts, and get the Stadium and Academy back?

On the other hand, if potential buyers were to buy the club, and the Stadium Entity were to go into Administration, new owners might not be guaranteed of getting the Stadium or Academy?

So, do MJD only "win" if DCFC go into Administration, or could they have a "win" if the Stadium Entity were to go into Administration - and if DCFC continued to exist?

Could someone write a short book explaining the finances? Here on the forum, lots of us chime in with comments here and there - but it's probably meaningless without understanding the big picture.

Short book? No chance more like a murder mystery whodunnit over a series

[Ken Tram]

28 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Short book? No chance more like a murder mystery whodunnit over a series

Maybe you could begin to serialise it - chapter by chapter!

I am probably so far off the mark, in trying to cobble together snippets of what oriole say!

If my interpretation is correct, then ...

... could MJD take ownership of the Stadium and Academy, if the entities that own these sites were to go into administration?

And if that made the club unviable - force a sale of the club too - sold to MJD if they wanted the lot?

How could someone buy the club without any certainty that they would have a stadium or Training ground the next day?

Why wouldn't the EFL use all of its resources to oppose clubs that create such financial situations?

Why is the Government proposing a Regulator, to apparently safeguard football ground as community assets?

Please do consider starting the book! I would quite like to know who owns which parts of the club - if anyone understands it well enough to explain it. (When the club is doing well, I have never had any notion of wanting to understand how the club was run and financed - but as things get dicey - and seemingly complicated with hard to understand implications - it seems to be more important to understand it.

[Spanish]

43 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

Maybe you could begin to serialise it - chapter by chapter!

I am probably so far off the mark, in trying to cobble together snippets of what oriole say!

If my interpretation is correct, then ...

... could MJD take ownership of the Stadium and Academy, if the entities that own these sites were to go into administration?

And if that made the club unviable - force a sale of the club too - sold to MJD if they wanted the lot?

How could someone buy the club without any certainty that they would have a stadium or Training ground the next day?

Why wouldn't the EFL use all of its resources to oppose clubs that create such financial situations?

Why is the Government proposing a Regulator, to apparently safeguard football ground as community assets?

Please do consider starting the book! I would quite like to know who owns which parts of the club - if anyone understands it well enough to explain it. (When the club is doing well, I have never had any notion of wanting to understand how the club was run and financed - but as things get dicey - and seemingly complicated with hard to understand implications - it seems to be more important to understand it.

There are better people than me for this, too much supposition from me.  @Charlotte Ramhas some interesting angles on this

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, Ken Tram said:

 

 

Could MJD potentially pick-up the club, stadium and Academy for £1 ... if my interpretation of what you and Charlotte have said is correct?

Are you saying that the "sale" of the stadium and/or Academy, were not actually sales - but they are simply collateral for loans?

But in that case, why would loan repayments be being made into DCFC?

Or were the loans - not loans of cash, but loans of buildings?

Are you saying ... DCFC loaned £80m* (?) to a business entity - but that entity did not receive cash, but instead received a stadium worth (£80m*). And then this separate entity now makes loan repayments to DCFC.

* Or whatever was the value of the stadium.

Presumably, this separate Stadium entity now own the stadium, but either way, they owe DCFC £80m*?

Therefore, at any point, DCFC could call-in this debt, and ask the Stadium Entity to either pay back £80m, or ask for the stadium back?

And if the stadium was given back as part of repayment, DCFC would then own it again, and a hypothetical Administrator could sell it.

Is any of this correct so far?

But, if the Stadium entity has taken a loan from Mr Dell at MJD, using the Academy as collateral for security (presuming that the Academy is owned by either the Stadium Entity, or possibly a separate Academy entity ...

Then, if DCFC went into administration ... and if the Stadium Entity went into administration and defaulted on its loan to MJD ... 

 ... MJD would own the Academy, and probably the stadium.

Could MJD then choose to buy DCFC from the Administrator for a knock down price because DCFC would not have a Stadium or Academy (Training Centre)? Or potentially buy it for £1 if no-one else would take on a club with debts, and with DCFC then bring a club without a stadium or Training Centre or Academy?

And then ... would MJD end up owning the club, the Stadium and the Academy and Training Centre (along with the club's footballing debts) ... in effect, for whatever amount it was that MJD loaned to the Stadium Entity.

But, if someone else were to buy DCFC in the meantime, then, presumably, they could could call in the debts, and get the Stadium and Academy back?

On the other hand, if potential buyers were to buy the club, and the Stadium Entity were to go into Administration, new owners might not be guaranteed of getting the Stadium or Academy?

So, do MJD only "win" if DCFC go into Administration, or could they have a "win" if the Stadium Entity were to go into Administration - and if DCFC continued to exist?

Could someone write a short book explaining the finances? Here on the forum, lots of us chime in with comments here and there - but it's probably meaningless without understanding the big picture.

If the club went into admin, it’s almost certain that:

- the stadium owning co would also go into admin

- the club would continue as a going concern

- there would ultimately be a change of ownership with the new owner owning the club and the stadium 

I think Chris Coles has told us that none of this will happen 

 

[Tyler Durden]

13 minutes ago, Spanish said:

There are better people than me for this, too much supposition from me.  @Charlotte Ramhas some interesting angles on this

As interesting as the ones on supporters being to blame for the club's current plight. 

[Jimbo Ram]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

As interesting as the ones on supporters being to blame for the club's current plight. 

Come on TD…..comments like that want to make me ? and are beyond contempt ?

[Spanish]

33 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

As interesting as the ones on supporters being to blame for the club's current plight. 

It sometimes seems that there are 2 separate people posting under the same name, praise where it is due

[Eatonram]

35 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

As interesting as the ones on supporters being to blame for the club's current plight. 

has anyone actually said that supporters are to blame for the clubs plight? Really? Could you be exaggerating ever so slightly?

[Spanish]

Just now, Eatonram said:

has anyone actually said that supporters are to blame for the clubs plight? Really? Could you be exaggerating ever so slightly?

@Charlotte Ramon ignore per chance?

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, Eatonram said:

has anyone actually said that supporters are to blame for the clubs plight? Really? Could you be exaggerating ever so slightly?

I seem to remember there being a whole thread started on the subject at the weekend......but don't take my word for it. 

[NottsRam77]

Am I missing something 

If we were about to be plunged into administration 

would Mel be meeting by supporters next week? ?

[Ken Tram]

35 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

If the club went into admin, it’s almost certain that:

- the stadium owning co would also go into admin

- the club would continue as a going concern

- there would ultimately be a change of ownership with the new owner owning the club and the stadium 

I think Chris Coles has told us that none of this will happen 

 

I think he says that wages would be paid. But I'm not sure he says that he would post them himself. And I don't think that the club have confirmed it.

But I agree that his tweets seemed encouraging.

However, if what you say above about Administration is true, then might MJD own the stadium rather than the new owners of the club?

Administration may be unlikely, but it would be nice to understand the position of the stadium.

A club without a stadium or training ground is a different proposition to s club that has both.

And ... if ... the stadium and training ground have been used as collateral to secure a loan from MJD, then ... if that is there case ... maybe MJD would take on the ownership of the stadium and club.

I don't know! But I would quite like to know!

And it is the case that we have been under sanction from the EFL for non payment of footballing payments, taxes, and not meeting the expected accountancy standards.

So, it is this scenario that leads people to want to ask ... what if ... questions.

If the club owned the stadium, I would not be asking. But, I do not know what the actual situation is.

[Eatonram]

11 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I seem to remember there being a whole thread started on the subject at the weekend......but don't take my word for it. 

which thread, I'll take a look.

[Tyler Durden]

4 minutes ago, Eatonram said:

which thread, I'll take a look.

[1967RAMS]

11 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

Am I missing something 

If we were about to be plunged into administration 

would Mel be meeting by supporters next week? ?

I suspect the meeting is to pat the invited poodles on the head and throw them a bone or two. In the  hope they will report what a swell guy Mel is and everything will be coming up rosy soon. Last ditch attempt to get fans back through the turnstiles 

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, 1967RAMS said:

I suspect the meeting is to pat the invited poodles on the head and throw them a bone or two. In the  hope they will report what a swell guy Mel is and everything will be coming up rosy soon. Last ditch attempt to get fans back through the turnstiles 

There's a point still haven't had my invitation yet.....

[Rev]

16 minutes ago, 1967RAMS said:

I suspect the meeting is to pat the invited poodles on the head and throw them a bone or two. In the  hope they will report what a swell guy Mel is and everything will be coming up rosy soon. Last ditch attempt to get fans back through the turnstiles 

I think describing mostly independent fan groups as poodles is unfair.

The club have already said ticket sales are on hold, so what fans do you think will come back through the turnstiles?

[kevinhectoring]

51 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

Administration may be unlikely, but it would be nice to understand the position of the stadium.

A club without a stadium or training ground is a different proposition to s club that has both.

And ... if ... the stadium and training ground have been used as collateral to secure a loan from MJD, then ... if that is there case ... maybe MJD would take on the ownership of the stadium and club.

I don't know! But I would quite like to know!

Ok

if we go into administration, the club’s business would be run by an administrator eg PWC 

If we do, it’s likely  that the same firm would be appointed as administrator of stadium co

that firm’s job would be to sort out the mess for the benefit of the creditors. In reality they need to look after MSD’s position in particular because it is the secured creditor. (Maybe Gabay too, I’ve lost track. If they are still around that complicated things)
 

If MSD wants to buy the club and the stadium then it is easy for them to do this. But they must pay a market price. However, they can (more or less) set their debt off against the amount they offer. If they want it, they are likely purchasers 

The club won’t stop trading and it is not going to be separated from the stadium. (The stadium is obviously worth very little if not used by the club ). 
 

I don’t think MM will let us go into administration. No way 

[NottsRam77]

1 hour ago, 1967RAMS said:

I suspect the meeting is to pat the invited poodles on the head and throw them a bone or two. In the  hope they will report what a swell guy Mel is and everything will be coming up rosy soon. Last ditch attempt to get fans back through the turnstiles 

But joking aside 

if we were about to go into admin even the best trained most loyal poodle would want to sink its teeth into someone that had just destroyed our club 

I don’t see it personally 

[Gringo]

On 25/07/2021 at 14:50, GboroRam said:

Weren't you taking exception to quoting 19th century authors a few pages ago? That book's even older! 

 

3 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Ok

if we go into administration, the club’s business would be run by an administrator eg PWC 

If we do, it’s likely  that the same firm would be appointed as administrator of stadium co

that firm’s job would be to sort out the mess for the benefit of the creditors. In reality they need to look after MSD’s position in particular because it is the secured creditor. (Maybe Gabay too, I’ve lost track. If they are still around that complicated things)
 

If MSD wants to buy the club and the stadium then it is easy for them to do this. But they must pay a market price. However, they can (more or less) set their debt off against the amount they offer. If they want it, they are likely purchasers 

The club won’t stop trading and it is not going to be separated from the stadium. (The stadium is obviously worth very little if not used by the club ). 
 

I don’t think MM will let us go into administration. No way 

The company owning the stadium could not possibly go into administration, what reason would there be for that to happen, Mel owns Gellaw Newco 202 and Gellaw Newco 204 they in turn owe money to MSD, who have a charge on both the stadium and the academy. Both of the Newco’s are owed money by Derby County and are Derby county’s biggest creditor. Whilst the club would try and continue trading in administration the majority of the staff would be made redundant and the players sold to raise cash for the creditors who in order of preference would be EFL, MSD, HMRC and the Newco’s where I presume Mel has parked the loans he has put into the club.

Unless something happens to Mel to stop him safeguarding his sizeable investment in the club, such as a deterioration in his health or he takes the advice of many on here and “effs off” then there is zero chance of administration.

all those screaming do it or it is inevitable have the same knowledge of the process as I do about brain surgery which is nada