Academy Thread 21/22

[Yani P]

Hopefully we can get a structure sorted where these young future stars can sign contracts with us before they get sold..then we might start getting Bellingham money for a couple.

[Ghost of Clough]

6 minutes ago, Zag zig said:

From what I see, it’s evidence of a self sustaining successful academy.

What’s wrong with if we continue to recoup good money, churning over young talent, whilst retaining the odd gem for the first squad. That to me, for a championship or lower side, suggests a highly successful academy business model.

Sometimes it’s easy to look at it negatively but I quite like what we’re doing in our academy right now.

At £5m per year running costs, the average player sold needs to be for about £500k. 
Delap, Gordon, Kellyman, Williams, Sharpe, Kaba and Scanlon were considered the best in their age groups, raising £5m combined. Getting £500k for the average scholar therefore is a tough ask and not sustainable.

[Zag zig]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Again except if they're any good they'd be better sold when they've shown more and we're higher up the league/Prem. ?

Maybe, Gordon looked a steal for Liverpool so in his case, I get that argument, but Williams was decent but no guarantee of getting miles better, no more than Whittaker who looked great academy level, didn’t really break through with ourselves, sold to a championship rival, some thought cheaply but he’s now at Lincoln.

You can spin it so many ways, the main thing is we create as good a future for these young lads, find them careers here or elsewhere, then we continue to become a much sought after academy, that attracts and develops talent, whilst at the same time having a successful self funded business model. 

Oh and we enjoy watching their careers and benefit on the 1st team pitch from it sometimes. Whats not to like ?

[Zag zig]

13 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

At £5m per year running costs, the average player sold needs to be for about £500k. 
Delap, Gordon, Kellyman, Williams, Sharpe, Kaba and Scanlon were considered the best in their age groups, raising £5m combined. Getting £500k for the average scholar therefore is a tough ask and not sustainable.

Yes, as I said ideally we wouldn’t have our pants pulled down for Gordon etc.

For balance to that, you would offset the cost to buy any of our first team youngsters on the open market, I know it’s hypothetical right now, we can’t buy anyway. Those youngsters though are saving us a fortune in transfer fees, or rather could do in the future.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Zag zig

[SirBrian]

2 minutes ago, Zag zig said:

Maybe, Gordon looked a steal for Liverpool so in his case, I get that argument, but Williams was decent but no guarantee of getting miles better, no more than Whittaker who looked great academy level, didn’t really break through with ourselves, sold to a championship rival, some thought cheaply but he’s now at Lincoln.

You can spin it so many ways, the main thing is we create as good a future for these young lads, find them careers here or elsewhere, then we continue to become a much sought after academy, that attracts and develops talent, whilst at the same time having a successful self funded business model. 

Oh and we enjoy watching their careers and benefit on the 1st team pitch from it sometimes. Whats not to like ?

Far more eloquent than myself

How many loan players have we had over the years on decent wages that we have had to pay, and how many did a decent job? know what i prefer, again Cocu at PSV over 5 years made over £100 million on his academy players, have no doubt the acadamey is our future. Transfer market in Jan pretty quite for all EFL clubs and it will be for many years to come, many clubs will be investing in their academies for owners will not invest for they need too recoup their high losses over covid.

[Ghost of Clough]

Players grouped by when they were (or would have been) 1st year scholars:

2017: French, JBrown, Minkley, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Dixon, Whittaker

2018: Foster, Halwax, Cashin, Ebosele, McDonald, Archie, Charles, Sibley, LThompson, Wilson, Stretton

2019: Solomon, Bardell, Grewal-Pollard, Matthews, Aghatise, Perez de Gracia, SThompson, Cybulski, Jinkinson, Rogers, Nto

2020: Roberts, Randle, Brailsford, Rutt, Christie, Ibrahim, Borkovic, Williams (Chelsea), Kelly, Delap (Man City)

2021: Evans, Richards, Aideyan, Maloney, Moore, Sebagabo, Fapetu, DRobinson, Ebiowei, Nicholas-Davies, Dixon, Eze (Norwich), Ryan (Brighton), Gordon (Liverpool)

2022: JThompson, Price, Cox, KRobinson, Hawkins, Houston, DBrown, Kellyman (Villa), Sharpe (Man Utd)

2023: Kaba (Man Utd), Scanlon (Man Utd)

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Players grouped by when they were (or would have been) 1st year scholars:

2017: French, JBrown, Minkley, Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Dixon, Whittaker

2018: Foster, Halwax, Cashin, Ebosele, McDonald, Archie, Charles, Sibley, LThompson, Wilson, Stretton

2019: Solomon, Bardell, Grewal-Pollard, Matthews, Aghatise, Perez de Gracia, SThompson, Cybulski, Jinkinson, Rogers, Nto

2020: Roberts, Randle, Brailsford, Rutt, Christie, Ibrahim, Borkovic, Williams (Chelsea), Kelly, Delap (Man City)

2021: Evans, Richards, Aideyan, Maloney, Moore, Sebagabo, Fapetu, DRobinson, Ebiowei, Nicholas-Davies, Dixon, Eze (Norwich), Ryan (Brighton), Gordon (Liverpool)

2022: JThompson, Price, Cox, KRobinson, Hawkins, Houston, DBrown, Kellyman (Villa), Sharpe (Man Utd)

2023: Kaba (Man Utd), Scanlon (Man Utd)

There's still a fair bit of potential talent in that lot. 

Was last night Bardell's first time on the bench in the league?

[Ghost of Clough]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

There's still a fair bit of potential talent in that lot. 

Was last night Bardell's first time on the bench in the league?

Yeah, first time in the match day squad. With Stearman now suspended, expect him to make the next few squads too.

I laid the names out  for that reason. I just stopped short of doing any sort of analysis.
A primary goal of the academy is to produce players at a net profit. Each year group will ideally fetch more than £5m. With the players we've let go, could we still do that?

2017: Whittaker sold for £750k. You'd hope Buchanan, Bird and Knight will more than cover the rest
2018: Cashin, Festy, McDonald, Sibley, Thompson, Wilson and Stretton should earn more than £5m
2019: We haven't seen much of Solomon, Bardell, WGP, Matthews, Aghatise or Cybulski in the first team. If I'm being honest, £5m will be a bit of a stretch
2020: Williams and Delap sold for about £2.5m. £2.5m from Roberts, Randle, Brailsford, Rutt, Christie, Ibrahim and Borkovic will be a tough ask.
2021: Maybe up to £2m for Eze, Ryan and Gordon. I expect Evans, Richards, Aideyan, Moloney, Moore, Sebagabo, Fapetu, DRobinson, Ebiowei, Nicholas-Davies and ZDixon to be more than £3m
2022: About £1.4m for Kellyman and Sharpe. JThompson, Cox, KRobinson, Hawkins, Houston, Wheeldon and DBrown have all featured for the U18s this season
2023: About £1.4m for Kaba and Scanlon. Price has been in the U18 squad once so far. No idea who else is in this group (current U15s).

 

If we were able to retain all players, £5m+ per year would be doable (exception possibly being the 2019 group).
Whilst the most valuable players have been picked off the 2020 group, we still have a few very good players in the younger ages. If we manage to retain the likes of Moloney, Sebagabo, Ebiowei, etc then we'll be back to getting more out than what we're putting in.

 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Ghost of Clough said:

2017: Whittaker sold for £750k. You'd hope Buchanan, Bird and Knight will more than cover the rest
2018: Cashin, Festy, McDonald, Sibley, Thompson, Wilson and Stretton should earn more than £5m
2019: We haven't seen much of Solomon, Bardell, WGP, Matthews, Aghatise or Cybulski in the first team. If I'm being honest, £5m will be a bit of a stretch
2020: Williams and Delap sold for about £2.5m. £2.5m from Roberts, Randle, Brailsford, Rutt, Christie, Ibrahim and Borkovic will be a tough ask.
2021: Maybe up to £2m for Eze, Ryan and Gordon. I expect Evans, Richards, Aideyan, Moloney, Moore, Sebagabo, Fapetu, DRobinson, Ebiowei, Nicholas-Davies and ZDixon to be more than £3m
2022: About £1.4m for Kellyman and Sharpe. JThompson, Cox, KRobinson, Hawkins, Houston, Wheeldon and DBrown have all featured for the U18s this season
2023: About £1.4m for Kaba and Scanlon. Price has been in the U18 squad once so far. No idea who else is in this group (current U15s).

 

If we were able to retain all players, £5m+ per year would be doable (exception possibly being the 2019 group).
Whilst the most valuable players have been picked off the 2020 group, we still have a few very good players in the younger ages. If we manage to retain the likes of Moloney, Sebagabo, Ebiowei, etc then we'll be back to getting more out than what we're putting in.

 

I think it will depend on our league position too. It's always easier for Prem teams to sell youngsters for a good price! ?

2018 - As you say at least £5m if we can get them under contracts.

2019 - looks interesting for defenders, and Matthews?

2020 - Not seen much of them but liked the 'flash' of Borkovic.

2021 - Have we got Ebiowei on a long deal, or he another the EFL stopped? Not seen much of the others.

 

[Anag Ram]

I’ve not seen much of Ebiowei. Is he ready for championship football?

What type of player is he?

 

[angieram]

Just now, Anag Ram said:

I’ve not seen much of Ebiowei. Is he ready for championship football?

What type of player is he?

 

Pace, skill, cuts in from the wing and goes for goal. Raw. Exciting.

[Ghost of Clough]

59 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I think it will depend on our league position too. It's always easier for Prem teams to sell youngsters for a good price! ?

2018 - As you say at least £5m if we can get them under contracts.

2019 - looks interesting for defenders, and Matthews?

2020 - Not seen much of them but liked the 'flash' of Borkovic.

2021 - Have we got Ebiowei on a long deal, or he another the EFL stopped? Not seen much of the others.

 

Defenders rarely get sold for much, hence why I don't have much hope from the 2019 group
I'm a big Borkovic fan. Injury prone though so needs a couple of years of carful management.
Ebiowei is one of those who are physically ready for the Championship, despite only being an U18. You just need to watch the highlights from the last few U18 games to see what a tricky player Ebiowei is. We should see a bit of him over the next few weeks if we manage to get through a game without an injury or red card.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Defenders rarely get sold for much, hence why I don't have much hope from the 2019 group
I'm a big Borkovic fan. Injury prone though so needs a couple of years of carful management.
Ebiowei is one of those who are physically ready for the Championship, despite only being an U18. You just need to watch the highlights from the last few U18 games to see what a tricky player Ebiowei is. We should see a bit of him over the next few weeks if we manage to get through a game without an injury or red card.

I was hopeful for the defenders for us too, save a bit of transfer money.

Ebiowei looked the business, but it seemed a bit 'land of the giants' stuff in the U18s for him.

Can we currently sign players for the Academy?

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

I was hopeful for the defenders for us too, save a bit of transfer money.

Ebiowei looked the business, but it seemed a bit 'land of the giants' stuff in the U18s for him.

Can we currently sign players for the Academy?

The academy an continue to recruit, but they won't be eligible for the first team, as per the conditions for Plange when he joined.

[Ravabeerbelly]

Regarding Ebiowei, yes he’s done ok coming on as a sub for the 23s, but it continues to be a mystery to me how or why players come out the 18s and manage to secure places on the bench in the first team before proving themselves with any consistency at all at 23s level. 

It must be incredibly frustrating for players who play regularly in the 23s, clearly keeping U18s out the side only to see the U18s player leap frog them.

The cynic in me, and I was proven right regarding Kellyman (and Gordon to a degree) says that all we are doing is safeguarding the finances should we still be unable to offer these players professional contracts in a few weeks time. 

The gap from 18s to 23s is huge and the gap from 23s to first team even larger. It is completely infeasible to suggest a player is good enough from the 18s when he’s not able to secure a place in the 23s starting line up. If they were then surely the priority would be to select the strongest 23s line up ahead of the strongest U18s line up. Just as it is for 1st team ahead of 23s.

[Animal is a Ram]

Just now, Ravabeerbelly said:

Regarding Ebiowei, yes he’s done ok coming on as a sub for the 23s, but it continues to be a mystery to me how or why players come out the 18s and manage to secure places on the bench in the first team before proving themselves with any consistency at all at 23s level. 

It must be incredibly frustrating for players who play regularly in the 23s, clearly keeping U18s out the side only to see the U18s player leap frog them.

The cynic in me, and I was proven right regarding Kellyman (and Gordon to a degree) says that all we are doing is safeguarding the finances should we still be unable to offer these players professional contracts in a few weeks time. 

The gap from 18s to 23s is huge and the gap from 23s to first team even larger. It is completely infeasible to suggest a player is good enough from the 18s when he’s not able to secure a place in the 23s starting line up. If they were then surely the priority would be to select the strongest 23s line up ahead of the strongest U18s line up. Just as it is for 1st team ahead of 23s.

I suspect - @Ghost of Clough will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure - that this is the situation we found ourselves in with regards to restrictions. Players in the u18s will more than likely be under scholar terms, and can be registered to play, where as the u23s can't (or at least weren't) be registered.

Further to this, look at the starting line up for the u23s game vs. Arsenal:

 

Of those, only Grewal-Pollard hasn't at least been on the bench, IIRC.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

Regarding Ebiowei, yes he’s done ok coming on as a sub for the 23s, but it continues to be a mystery to me how or why players come out the 18s and manage to secure places on the bench in the first team before proving themselves with any consistency at all at 23s level. 

It must be incredibly frustrating for players who play regularly in the 23s, clearly keeping U18s out the side only to see the U18s player leap frog them.

The cynic in me, and I was proven right regarding Kellyman (and Gordon to a degree) says that all we are doing is safeguarding the finances should we still be unable to offer these players professional contracts in a few weeks time. 

The gap from 18s to 23s is huge and the gap from 23s to first team even larger. It is completely infeasible to suggest a player is good enough from the 18s when he’s not able to secure a place in the 23s starting line up. If they were then surely the priority would be to select the strongest 23s line up ahead of the strongest U18s line up. Just as it is for 1st team ahead of 23s.

I'm sure you're clever enough to know we've been shoehorning the older U23s into the starting XI to help them earn moves to other clubs. Sure, he could have been on the bench more often than he has, but we still need to put a competitive U18 side out. He'll improve more from 90 minutes in the U18s than 10 minutes for the U23s.
Bottom in the U23s but 4th in the U18s would probably suggest the difference in quality of our players isn't that great.

No matter which way you look at it, Ebiowei is the best winger we have outside of the first team squad and is rightfully drafted up based on performances.

If anything, Rooney's comments prove you wrong on Kellyman. He didn't include him in the squad to get more money, it was because he rated him highly and saw him as part of his squad in the long term. At the time, we had no fit CFs, so it was down to Cybulski, Zion Dixon or Kellyman. None are anywhere near ready for the first team, so he opted for the one who he felt had the best long term prospect.
On Gordon, it was more likely that Rooney was trying to tempt him to stay by showing him the route to the first team. I bet he'd have been starting pretty much every game this season if he did stay

[Ghost of Clough]

12 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I suspect - @Ghost of Clough will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure - that this is the situation we found ourselves in with regards to restrictions. Players in the u18s will more than likely be under scholar terms, and can be registered to play, where as the u23s can't (or at least weren't) be registered.

Further to this, look at the starting line up for the u23s game vs. Arsenal:

Of those, only Grewal-Pollard hasn't at least been on the bench, IIRC.

That's right. Hence why we couldn't offer Williams a pro contract

[RoyMac5]

27 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

It must be incredibly frustrating for players who play regularly in the 23s, clearly keeping U18s out the side only to see the U18s player leap frog them.

The cynic in me, and I was proven right regarding Kellyman (and Gordon to a degree) says that all we are doing is safeguarding the finances should we still be unable to offer these players professional contracts in a few weeks time. 

Or turning it on it's head, they are the better players and the others need to keep competing.

[Ravabeerbelly]

24 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Or turning it on it's head, they are the better players and the others need to keep competing.

If they were better they’d be selected for the 23s and judged on whether they can make that step up. It’s quite a simple concept…If you’re proving good enough step up to the next level….it makes a mockery of the levels if you’re able to bypass one without having proven yourself in it.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Ravabeerbelly