State of play: various polls

[BramcoteRam84]

3 hours ago, BondJovi said:

I think you are missing the impact Bielik had on those around him. All those you mentioned benefitted immensely from having a proper defensive mid.  I think the amount of work Knight and Shinnie have to do without Bielik has taken its toll.

Fair point but we are still good enough to survive without him. 

[SKRam]

I was genuinely gutted last night it did ruin my Saturday and evening, I mean I only managed three cans, was surprised how down I felt but here we are Sunday, England cricket (one decent England team at least) to lift the spirits! Roll on Tuesday, come on Wayne let’s be ‘Avenue’ 

[Jourdan]

58 minutes ago, Asanovic70 said:

I think that's harsh Jourdan & I say that as someone who thinks you often post sense - and a lot of what you post here is valid. But often how a side starts a season can auger for the rest of it. Half a season in charge?  What a half a season, a takeover saga, injury to a key player disrupting the balance of a midfield trio. Parallels with Clough circa 2009, an improvement in results & even some mediocre players responding before injuries and a downturn, and some questioning the choice of manager without him even having a full season in charge, inheriting a difficult situation.

 You can't simply blithely dismiss one of our worst ever starts in a season as a momentary aberration. It set the tone. People seem to forget past seasons as comparison or to see parallels, like 2003 where we were often abject (0-3 opening day home loss to Stoke), the coffee-cup game masking a difficult season though Osman proved to be a great loan signing in contrast so far to the five that have come in in terms of impact atm. Last 10, 4W 2D 4L, the wins all coming at home. As the wikipedia entry says, the season was also set against a background of uncertainty re: ownership with Pickering forced to give way & Keith et al set to take over.

A forum exists to vent frustration but I do find some of the comments now wryly amusing as we ponder our next sacrificial victim or flavour of the month, be it Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink or Chris Wilder. Every managerial appointment carries a certain amount of risk. I wasn't keen on Rooney but was won over. We should offer him some leeway in that this is a challenging first job and perhaps some of the guarantees made to him have not been fulfilled. You complain about the loans, remember this was a Plan B, not his preferred set of targets, you could argue about the respective merits of Ladapo etc, but contrast with Birmingham who bought players for money like Cosgrove, OK the flipside is that Sheff W didn't bring in anybody.

The short-term goal is survival, the longer term questions are beyond Rooney and are about ownership & investment. Burley played the market well in 2004-2005 and some of the younger players (Huddlestone) went on to become key, so there was progress after a challenging season. It remains to be seen if this will be the case and you are right to share your concerns.

 

To be honest, you’re probably right. If it was anyone else that had come in from the outside, I probably would be defending them.

If we both agree that it was a difficult (but not impossible) situation to walk into, then logic dictates that we should have appointed someone with the experience and the stamina to cope with such a situation, no?

I just felt the situation called for an experienced manager and the manner of Rooney’s appointment meant he arrived in the job with little to no merit and very much under a cloud.

The start to the season was poor. There is no getting away from that. But for how long can it be used as a crutch to prop up Rooney? We’ve seen in recent weeks how a manager can turn a team’s season around very quickly. Cardiff have gone from mid-table to now being comfortably in the top half and with an outside shot at the playoffs after getting the fit right with McCarthy.

I do sympathise with Rooney where things are concerned off the pitch. He hasn’t been given the best platform to build from - that much is true. 

But he’s also been at the club for almost 18 months, so it is not as if he walked into the job blindly. He took on the job confident in his ability to succeed and closer than most to knowing the constraints and difficulties at play.

Would fans have more sympathy for him if we were going out and losing games 4-3 or 3-2? I suspect they would. Is he helping his own cause by setting the team up in a way that turns fans off and attracts criticism?

It’s interesting you draw parallels with George Burley’s time in charge. I think the difference is that Burley was a proven, experienced manager and had a track record of delivering teams that were exciting to watch, so the patience was justified. Rooney has none of that to back him up.

2003-04 was very bleak at times indeed but I think there were far more green shoots and a sense of progression over time compared to this season. There were signs that something was brewing. In particular I remember us hammering Preston at home towards the end of the season, scoring 5 goals and playing them off the park.

Our last standout performance under Rooney was in December. I worry we have peaked too soon under Rooney.

[Rammy03]

8 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

The start to the season was poor. There is no getting away from that. But for how long can it be used as a crutch to prop up Rooney? We’ve seen in recent weeks how a manager can turn a team’s season around very quickly. Cardiff have gone from mid-table to now being comfortably in the top half and with an outside shot at the playoffs after getting the fit right with McCarthy.

Cardiff have better squad and were in the playoffs last season. They have players like Harry Wilson.

There are far bigger problems than the manager. It comes from the top. There are problems off the field that need sorting before next season. Then we can judge Rooney

[Jourdan]

36 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Top half form from 23 games even with the recent slump. Is that sackable? Seriously? 
The fairest barometer is to look at his reign in his entirety. Yet we’re still down there - how is that not down to the start under Cocu? That’s not lazy - its fact. If we get relegated it would be lazy to blame Wayne. Is he the right man for this season - yes to sack him now and bring someone else in could be complete disaster. Keeping us up means he will deserve a shot at next season.

Is he the man to take us to the next level next season and beyond, Jury is out, not once have I said this will all be sorted in the summer so don’t have the audacity and arrogance to call me naive , but my view is he’s sorted us out to get results. With time to work on things and ability to juggle the squad in the summer I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for next season - unlike you who assesses a 4 game period where we haven’t won a game and assume that’s what it’s going to be for as long as he’s here. 

Where have I mentioned Rooney being sacked?

All I’ve said is that he shouldn’t be immune from criticism. I am not surprised at the criticism or people questioning him. It happens with every manager during a bad run.

Personally I don’t expect Rooney to be here very long, mainly because the job is too much too soon for him but also because the way he wants us to play is at odds with what most Derby fans want. He will continue to lose the support of the fans.

For me, he is not a good long term fit for us. I don’t need another 6-12 months to see that. It would be brilliant for him to prove me wrong but I just don’t think the state of the club lends itself to an inexperienced manager trying to move us forward. Does he deserve the chance? Maybe, but for me it is just ignoring the obvious and inevitable.

I didn’t say you were naive. I said it is naive to think we’ll have a fairytale summer under Rooney. And I am assessing his whole time in charge, not just the last 7 games. I think I have been consistent in saying I am not convinced he is the right fit for us - even when we were winning six games in eight and so on.

[Jourdan]

29 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

Cardiff have better squad and were in the playoffs last season. They have players like Harry Wilson.

There are far bigger problems than the manager. It comes from the top. There are problems off the field that need sorting before next season. Then we can judge Rooney

Of course there are bigger problems than the manager, but that doesn’t mean a different manager wouldn’t be a better fit for the situation.

The club is in a bad state behind the scenes and there doesn’t appear to be an immediate resolution in sight. We all accept that.

This is why the situation has always called for an experienced manager who is accustomed to working in difficult circumstances.

If we really think Rooney has been dealt an impossible hand, then if we are being as fair as possible we probably shouldn’t judge him or expect much progress for the next two seasons at least. But as we both know that isn’t going to happen. 5-10 games into next season, people will be on his back if we are not doing well.

One of two things are likely to happen - Rooney loses patience with the club and its limitations and moves on to a club that is more stable, or Rooney struggles to keep pace with growing expectation to deliver good football and good results.

Anything else would be too good to be true given the recent history of our club.

[Rammy03]

1 minute ago, Jourdan said:

One of two things are likely to happen - Rooney loses patience with the club and its limitations and moves on to a club that is more stable, or Rooney struggles to keep pace with growing expectation to deliver good football and good results.

Anything else would be too good to be true given the recent history of our club.

I disagree. Everything depends on the ownership situation. If a takeover happens before next season and things are put in place, I think Rooney can be a success here.

[Jourdan]

3 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I disagree. Everything depends on the ownership situation. If a takeover happens before next season and things are put in place, I think Rooney can be a success here.

Next season starts in less than five months. We first caught wind of the BZI takeover in October - five months ago.

It would be a turnaround for the ages for any takeover to go through smoothly (with Mel having done the necessary due diligence) and leave the club in a position to have a positive and proactive summer.

It is asking a lot.

[BramcoteRam84]

2 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Where have I mentioned Rooney being sacked?

All I’ve said is that he shouldn’t be immune from criticism. I am not surprised at the criticism or people questioning him. It happens with every manager during a bad run.

Personally I don’t expect Rooney to be here very long, mainly because the job is too much too soon for him but also because the way he wants us to play is at odds with what most Derby fans want. He will continue to lose the support of the fans.

For me, he is not a good long term fit for us. I don’t need another 6-12 months to see that. It would be brilliant for him to prove me wrong but I just don’t think the state of the club lends itself to an inexperienced manager trying to move us forward. Does he deserve the chance? Maybe, but for me it is just ignoring the obvious and inevitable.

I didn’t say you were naive. I said it is naive to think we’ll have a fairytale summer under Rooney. And I am assessing his whole time in charge, not just the last 7 games. I think I have been consistent in saying I am not convinced he is the right fit for us - even when we were winning six games in eight and so on.

 I know you didn’t say sacked I put words in your mouth, but he’s not the right fit, he shouldn’t be the manager our position in the league and still being in trouble is all on him you may as well say it. 

As for the criticism thing, I should clarify I don’t think you can criticise his record so far overall. Of course he’s not immune to criticism, especially in the past couple of weeks where it hasn’t been good enough and he’s culpable - especially the Cardiff and Cov defeats.
 

I don’t think you can judge whether he’s the right fit or not for us yet. He’s 23 games into his career he doesn’t have a style or a way of playing yet.  He came into a desperate situation, he has been forced to be pragmatic to get results. He’s got results so far and will probably keep us up which would be a decent achievement from where we were.
 

He would deserve to continue into the summer and next season where (hopefully) we can work on a more attacking style, the young players take that next step in their development and performance  and make some signings to mould an attacking and competitive team next season. I agree with you the jury is still out on all that.

If we’re pragmatic next season and still top 6 I’ll back him, if we’re mid table and pragmatic I would be less enamoured. If he goes completely short termist , sells our young talent this summer and bring in established 28+ year olds on big transfer fees and decent wages then I would quickly turn against him as we won’t have learned any lessons on the past few years. We don’t know if any of that will happen yet, but im prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt until he starts proving otherwise.

[Leeds Ram]

1. Have you lost, or never had, confidence in Rooney? I've never had confidence in Rooney from the day he was appointed to today. If we do have a new owner coming in to give us funds I'd be showing him the door for a more experienced head whether we scraped survival or not. His treatment of some of the younger players is baffling to me, tactically he's got things badly wrong since Wycombe and our shape is woeful. The good form was built upon not conceding but in the long run that wasn't tenable- fundamentally he's not addressed the structural issues that existed when Cocu was here. Now we are paying the price of that. 

 

2. Should we pick a formation and stick to it?-  I think this slightly misses the point as we could have one formation but play it in a more aggressive manner. The problem is with the shape of the team when in possession I think rather than the actual formation. However, it doesn't help to continually chop and change- we should be adept at a couple of different formations and shapes to counter certain opposition but have an established style we feel comfortable with. 

3. Should we select more of our creative players?- This is an obvious yes for me. We won't stay up if we can't score goals and creative players both engineer chances and put them away. If we're relying upon corners and set pieces to score I think we'll go down. 

4. Do you think there will be a takeover before the end of the season?-  I hope there is but i doubt it. 

5. Will we get relegated?- I honestly am not sure and I don't think anyone who is being honest with themselves is either. I think there's a seriously strong possibility that we will fall through the trap door. If we play as we have done since Wycombe, I don't see us gaining more than a handful of points and one of rotherham, birmingham or sheffield wednesday will do enough to pull us in and sink us. If we're relying on results against birmingham and sheffield wednesday I'd probably say we'll also go down as i don't fancy us in a dogfight. 

 

[Asanovic70]

@Jourdan

Yes, I agree about Burley, the green-shoots, I did mention Cook well before Cocu's sacking & McCarthy, two experienced managers -the latter dismissed as an dinosaur but we were an absolute shambles. Rooney did help to drag us out of the bottom three which was an early boost. The last few matches have been disappointing but we have faced form sides, 3 of the top 4 (over last 8 games). It's an excuse but we have to remember another side wants to win the game. Some might rightly argue that yesterday Millwall came for a point but they are a well-organized side, unfortunately one badly defended corner was enough for us to lose.

The sheer amount of games in the current Covid situation has seen a noticeable drop-off in goals, high-scoring games, most games are tight/2.5 goals (bookmakers) as most have 2-3 goals, this week's round so far, 5 Under/5 Over. We aren't scoring goals, let alone more than one in a game, so I suppose I can understand the rationale of keeping things tight. If we did go toe to toe with a side like Brentford or Norwich, we might get heavily punished. I guess it's about staying in games. Our current form might see the manager alter his own tactics, it is perhaps a learning curve for him as well.

Rooney has disappointed (tinkering), but I think this is one of the worst Derby sides in terms of character & leadership as well as a squad overall. It possesses some ability but is inconsistent, youngsters with talent but not dependable or trustworthy enough yet to deliver good performances over a long period (Sibley). We are asking a lot from some of them (the youngsters).

Bielik brought more than just his ability, he brought a bit of bravery, setting an example. Footballers are human, despite all the riches on offer, and confidence is a big issue, players losing faith/doubting in their ability, like Ibe & to a degree, Lawrence, who has had a difficult couple of years. They can fall out of love with the game, it's a job. Look at George Thorne who opted to drop out of the game. The dressing-room must also be a challenging place, there are a lot of young players, even Clarke, and after Bielik's injury, we could have done with a veteran play-maker (Gordon Cowans, Oakley) pulling the strings, guiding the youngsters & steadying things, which is what Rooney did bring last season on the pitch.

[Wolfie]

5 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

In your time machine let's see how Cocu would have fared with Bielik in the same team playing for him and then compare with when Rooney has him playing in his side.

We can't though can we so your point is entirely unprovable. You're making a supposition which can't be supported so is an opinion just like mine.

No more unprovable than your statement that Cocu would have taken us down & claim that nobody could quibble with it. 
 

just sayin......

[Highgate]

When Rooney took over the last thing I expected from him, as a novice manager, was to build a defensively sound team. But that's what he did I have to admit. I also expected him to be an attack minded manager with an emphasis on creativity. Instead what I seen from his teams in an attacking sense has been turgid, toothless and depressing. Quite honestly some the dullest football we've ever played. At the moment I have serious reservations about whether Rooney will ever be a decent manager for us, or anyone. But right now I couldn't care less about that, 21st or better this season, that's all that matters.

[Asanovic70]

@Jourdan

Re: Burley, 2003, I remember we made a disappointing start & then brought in Junior, the striker from Walsall, who brought pace etc. he altered the dynamic of the team before he suffered a cruciate injury. I think that is what happened with regarding Bielik. He is a big miss,  also in terms of character/attitude but the team's dynamic (shape) altered for the better & now it has altered for the worst since his injury. I think it's unfair to say that Rooney relied on him etc, he enabled the side to play in a different way, and we are back to the gritty sort of performances that went before.

He offered something different than either Knight & Shinnie, just like if you take away a pacey striker, a team struggles to get behind opposition defenses.

 

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, Wolfie said:

No more unprovable than your statement that Cocu would have taken us down & claim that nobody could quibble with it. 
 

just sayin......

Exactly so we agree on one thing 

If it's not probable though then why use it in the first place was my original point which still stands.

[Millenniumram]

1. Think I made it very clear how strongly opposed I was to Rooney getting the job in the first place - I still think we needed someone with more experience. But you can’t argue with what he’s done so far, he’s done a good job getting us out of the relegation zone considering how we started the season, so I can’t see an argument for sacking him as things stand. 

2. We need to focus on our own game more. I don’t mind us making minor tactical alterations to help deal with specific opponents, but we shouldn’t be changing our entire system every week just to deal with other Championship teams. We need to choose a preferred formation, and play that 90% of the time. Let players build in one defined style, so they actually know what they’re doing.

3. Clearly we need more attacking threat in the team, we don’t look like scoring another goal before the end of the season as things stand. Got to get more attack minded players on the pitch if we want to sort that out, especially in midfield. We’re too focused on shielding the defence, rather than supporting the attack at the moment.

4. No chance. The Bin Zayed deal has never been on, and that’s the only one that could have been done before the end of the season. Any other offer will have to go through various clearance levels again before it goes through, which will probably take most of the year.

5. Yes. Always say teams who can’t score goals generally go down, goals win games. And we really can’t score goals.