State of play: various polls

[CBRammette]

Just now, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

We can't get a points deduction as part of the appeal process. We can get fined. But no points off as I understand it 

Thank you. Is that definite as would make me feel much easier from a relegation point of view? IPerhaps not administration though ££££ !! I hope our current purple patch will be a patch and we can get past it finishing better

[Tyler Durden]

Rooney inherited an absolutely abysmal start from Cocu which seems to be glossed over all of the time, removing Cocu was the correct decision and in reality should have been done far earlier than it was.

Cocu would have taken us down let's not quibble about that.

I didn't see many or any posters moaning about Rooney as a manager when we were top of the form league, I did see a lot of posters blowing smoke up his arse though by the same token.

Now that the wheels are starting to fall off the fickleness of fans are now starting to become apparent. 

Rooney does need to change his mentality of not trying to lose a game at any costs now as we have no answer when we fall behind in a game which has been consistent all season and if a casual football fan posting on an internet forum can spot this then Rooney needs to start waking up to it pretty damn rapidly as it will take us down. 

[angieram]

I think we should stick with Rooney to see how he does when he starts from a level playing field. 

I hope some of his negative tactics are borne out of the situation he inherited. I was hoping we would have been safer earlier, so that we could see whether he might be able to demonstrate a more creative approach in the last few games. Sadly  this is now going right to the wire so we will not know. I think we'll hang on (just!)

I still think Rooney could be more creative in certain games (yesterday being one) because the overly defensive mindset is leading to a general dearth of confidence through the whole team. No surprise to see us reflecting this as a fanbase.

Strangely I feel more optimistic about a takeover now that a deadline has been given to BZI. They will almost certainly pull out and there is no reason to think a new investor would take the same length of time to complete. They may not be to our liking though  but I really don't know enough about the murky world of football finance to have a strong opinion on any potential investors at this stage.

[Van der MoodHoover]

6 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Rooney inherited an absolutely abysmal start from Cocu which seems to be glossed over all of the time, removing Cocu was the correct decision and in reality should have been done far earlier than it was.

Cocu would have taken us down let's not quibble about that.

I didn't see many or any posters moaning about Rooney as a manager when we were top of the form league, I did see a lot of posters blowing smoke up his arse though by the same token.

Now that the wheels are starting to fall off the fickleness of fans are now starting to become apparent. 

Rooney does need to change his mentality of not trying to lose a game at any costs now as we have no answer when we fall behind in a game which has been consistent all season and if a casual football fan posting on an internet forum can spot this then Rooney needs to start waking up to it pretty damn rapidly as it will take us down. 

the question was not "Should we get rid of Rooney" but "have you lost confidence". So I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of folks confidence was not as high as it was, as our form has slumped. A number of responses on this thread seem to have extrapolated that to infer he should be got rid of, which is different in my mind.

Even though my confidence was never high in him and the set-up, I was a) surprised by the level of favourable results he initially gained and b) wrote on various threads that he had earned the right to the permanent role. We can't really afford to fire him. But maybe we could get a better team around him than the tried and failed mob we currently have?

[Asanovic70]

1 hour ago, StrawHillRam said:

Millwall are a mid table side with little to play for and we lost

Fair point but we've got a terrible record against Rowett's sides at home, 3L now. We lost in 2016 when we finished 5th & a supposedly better side, 0-3. 

[24Charlie]

18 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Rooney inherited an absolutely abysmal start from Cocu which seems to be glossed over all of the time, removing Cocu was the correct decision and in reality should have been done far earlier than it was.

Cocu would have taken us down let's not quibble about that.

I didn't see many or any posters moaning about Rooney as a manager when we were top of the form league, I did see a lot of posters blowing smoke up his arse though by the same token.

Now that the wheels are starting to fall off the fickleness of fans are now starting to become apparent. 

Rooney does need to change his mentality of not trying to lose a game at any costs now as we have no answer when we fall behind in a game which has been consistent all season and if a casual football fan posting on an internet forum can spot this then Rooney needs to start waking up to it pretty damn rapidly as it will take us down. 

I will certainly quibble as Cocu did not have a fit Beilik.

[Tyler Durden]

5 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

the question was not "Should we get rid of Rooney" but "have you lost confidence". So I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of folks confidence was not as high as it was, as our form has slumped. A number of responses on this thread seem to have extrapolated that to infer he should be got rid of, which is different in my mind.

Even though my confidence was never high in him and the set-up, I was a) surprised by the level of favourable results he initially gained and b) wrote on various threads that he had earned the right to the permanent role. We can't really afford to fire him. But maybe we could get a better team around him than the tried and failed mob we currently have?

Putting Rooney in charge was the easy option I was never particularly convinced but kept my gob shut to a degree when the results were very favourable as would have seemed very petulant at the time and the number of posters blowing smoke up his rectum was quite phenomenal. 

I do know that doing nothing would have taken us down. Was I surprised by the level of favourable results? Not really as Cocu was a dismal failure so the initial bar was set so low to compare against. 

[strawhillram]

1 minute ago, 24Charlie said:

I will certainly quibble as Cocu did not have a fit Beilik.

I think there is scope for quibbling 

would have been interested to see how we would have done with bielik under cocu. We will never know

[Jimbo Ram]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

We are absolutely not in this position because of Rooney. How can anyone criticise or say he’s the wrong man based on the job he’s done so far. Worst start in championship history. Bottom of the league to 7 points clear through top half form when we are not a top half team. We need to stay in this league by hook or by crook, style of football etc needs to wait. Also playing 3 times a week he has no time to work on a defined style of play.
 

I don’t get this Rooney aversion to creative players as well - I like Sibley but he hasn’t been anywhere near it this season. Knight was outstanding until about 4 weeks ago and his performances have dropped right off. Whichever combination of wide players we’ve played hasn’t worked, to be selected every week players need to be trusted to do a job and there are too many in this team right now that you can’t.

It’s horses for courses to get us over the line then in the summer we can see the team and style he really wants. If we stay up (and I still think we will like a majority who have so far answered this poll) he’s done a very good job, his bigger challenge will be can he take us to the next level but he will have deserved the opportunity.

If we go down, both Rooney and the club have got a decision to make but I wouldn’t necessarily get rid of him.

Knight has been poor for much more than the last month....

[strawhillram]

Is this an exit poll?

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

I will certainly quibble as Cocu did not have a fit Beilik.

In your time machine let's see how Cocu would have fared with Bielik in the same team playing for him and then compare with when Rooney has him playing in his side.

We can't though can we so your point is entirely unprovable. You're making a supposition which can't be supported so is an opinion just like mine.

[BramcoteRam84]

29 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

It’s become apparentthat our change in fortune was more down to Beilik than anything Rooney did.

Any manager would struggle in these circumstances so he’s trying to match up teams. The problem is they are better at playing the way they do than we are so we aren’t getting anywhere.

I’d like Rooney to get some flair into the team and play Sibley CKR and Lawrence v Brentford and even if we lose continue with it.

We haven’t been successful not going for it, so why not just go for it.

Disagree with the Bielik comment. Undoubtedly we miss him and we are a better team with him in (he would improve any championship team and some premier league teams) but he wasn’t the sole reason. You look at the performances of Buchanan Knight Shinnie Byrne even Kazim in recent weeks and they are way down on their best form. Byrne and Shinnie looked good again yesterday thankfully and hopefully that can continue.
 

I agree with you regarding creativity, we’ve struggled to find the right balance all season, but given how attacking our full backs are, yesterday’s team should’ve been attacking enough, but our wide forwards didn’t do their jobs in an attacking sense and Knight didn’t contribute at all. I think 4-3-3 is our best formation and we should stick to it as much as we can for the run in, I’d bring Bird in for Knight and I think Watson has done enough to start now. If Lawrence is fit he will start, if not it’s between Joz and Sibley for me. I think Roberts deserves another shot after his performance when he came on. 

With the position we’re in we will be cautious for the remainder of the season, I think we will poo house a couple of 1-0s against better teams and get over the line then spend the summer trying to find the right formula.

[24Charlie]

8 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

In your time machine let's see how Cocu would have fared with Bielik in the same team playing for him and then compare with when Rooney has him playing in his side.

We can't though can we so your point is entirely unprovable. You're making a supposition which can't be supported so is an opinion just like mine.

[24Charlie]

Just now, 24Charlie said:

9 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

In your time machine let's see how Cocu would have fared with Bielik in the same team playing for him and then compare with when Rooney has him playing in his side.

We can't though can we so your point is entirely unprovable. You're making a supposition which can't be supported so is an opinion just like mine.

I quibbled I didn’t make a statement of fact.

[BondJovi]

40 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Disagree with the Bielik comment. Undoubtedly we miss him and we are a better team with him in (he would improve any championship team and some premier league teams) but he wasn’t the sole reason. You look at the performances of Buchanan Knight Shinnie Byrne even Kazim in recent weeks and they are way down on their best form. Byrne and Shinnie looked good again yesterday thankfully and hopefully that can continue.
 

I agree with you regarding creativity, we’ve struggled to find the right balance all season, but given how attacking our full backs are, yesterday’s team should’ve been attacking enough, but our wide forwards didn’t do their jobs in an attacking sense and Knight didn’t contribute at all. I think 4-3-3 is our best formation and we should stick to it as much as we can for the run in, I’d bring Bird in for Knight and I think Watson has done enough to start now. If Lawrence is fit he will start, if not it’s between Joz and Sibley for me. I think Roberts deserves another shot after his performance when he came on. 

With the position we’re in we will be cautious for the remainder of the season, I think we will poo house a couple of 1-0s against better teams and get over the line then spend the summer trying to find the right formula.

I think you are missing the impact Bielik had on those around him. All those you mentioned benefitted immensely from having a proper defensive mid.  I think the amount of work Knight and Shinnie have to do without Bielik has taken its toll.

[Jourdan]

3 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

We are absolutely not in this position because of Rooney. How can anyone criticise or say he’s the wrong man based on the job he’s done so far. Worst start in championship history. Bottom of the league to 7 points clear through top half form when we are not a top half team. We need to stay in this league by hook or by crook, style of football etc needs to wait. Also playing 3 times a week he has no time to work on a defined style of play.
 

I don’t get this Rooney aversion to creative players as well - I like Sibley but he hasn’t been anywhere near it this season. Knight was outstanding until about 4 weeks ago and his performances have dropped right off. Whichever combination of wide players we’ve played hasn’t worked, to be selected every week players need to be trusted to do a job and there are too many in this team right now that you can’t.

It’s horses for courses to get us over the line then in the summer we can see the team and style he really wants. If we stay up (and I still think we will like a majority who have so far answered this poll) he’s done a very good job, his bigger challenge will be can he take us to the next level but he will have deserved the opportunity.

If we go down, both Rooney and the club have got a decision to make but I wouldn’t necessarily get rid of him.

Of course Rooney can be criticised. It’s the nature of football management. He knew this would come with the territory when he lobbied for the job and there was the media clamour for him to be appointed while the seat in Cocu’s office was still warm.

He’s not five games into the role anymore. He has had the equivalent of half a season in charge now. Had he got the job in different circumstances, perhaps fans would be more forgiving.

Blaming Cocu for everything at this point is just lazy. It was 25 games ago. This ‘worst start in Championship history’ left us two points from safety, not 10.

You are saying Rooney should be lauded for the job he has done and I think people have given him credit for it. What people are now questioning is whether he is right for us in the long term. 

While you are right that safety is the aim this season and we have to steer clear of danger by hook or by crook, we are reaching a stage where we should be seeing signs of what is to come.

If you have watched us play for any length of time in recent months, it is not a style that Derby fans are known to enjoy or tolerate, sometimes not even when we are winning. The signs do not look good.

There is a clear aversion to attack minded players. We regularly set up with seven or eight defensive players on the pitch and clearly prioritise stopping the opposition over causing problems for them. Of our five January signings, two of them were defenders and one of them was a defensive midfielder. The only creative player we signed was Roberts and he has started two games in 10. I don’t think it is a coincidence.

I also think it’s a little naive to think that everything will change in the summer and Rooney will bring in the players he wants and needs and we’ll look a totally different prospect.

We made five signings in January and there has been little to no improvement or evolution, and any summer transformation is dependent on the takeover being resolved and going well. Two things that are not guaranteed.

If Rooney wanted us to be more attacking and more exciting, I doubt he is going to wait 30-40 games into his tenure to try and deliver it. We have been safety first since day one, again not something I think is a coincidence.

People are waking up to the possibility that this is not actually a needs must set up, this is how Rooney sees the game.

[samwcave]

From our most recent lineups ending up in poor results+performances, I can highlight one, maybe 2 or 3 SEMI creative players. Byrne, Jozwiak (maybe.  tho I know a lot of people will strongly disagree) Roberts (maybe) Forsyth (only with his crossing. So again, MAYBE). I can also name 6 sometimes even SEVEN defensive players in every single lineup. This is my first problem. How does Rooney expect a team made up of 70% defensive players to score and create goals? How does he expect a team of 70% defensive players to create clear cut chances? How does he expect a team with 70% defensive players to have good movement off the ball? How does he expect a team which has little pace whatsoever to have good movement off the ball and on the ball? The team is so sluggish it’s outrageous. That is my second problem. My third problem is that we are relying on a 35, and 32 year old man to be our main goalscoring outlet. So these are some my problems. Tactically I, like many, haven’t got a clue what he is telling the players to do. it is literally, like many have described, like watching the team at the start of the season. It’s all very well having 72% possession every game, and 13 shots, but when you look at the 2 shots on target, we may aswell have had 2 shots all game and it wouldn’t have changed a thing. Most of our shots nowadays are actually shinnie trying his luck because no one else is actually giving him an option so at times it is his only choice. 

when we do get results, it is because the other team is worse than us. Very rarely because we totally outplayed the opposition. The last time we did outplay the opposition we had Bielik, so what does that tell you? There is no  bravery in the squad, no one takes risks, no one seems to actually want the ball, and no one seems to be enjoying playing for this football club. 
 

[Chester40]

1) I very rarely support sacking the manager and he is definitely less deserving of the sack than Cocu was. However, I never wanted Rooney and whilst I have been very pleasantly surprised by his improved persona and the initial results, I wouldn't be devastated if we went for an established manager instead. 

2) Tinkering with formations is what happens when you aren't getting results. You keep trying something new because it didn't work last week. Smacks of desperation. Definitely need to settle on a system and stop the negative 'mirroring' of other teams tactics. 

3) Yes yes yes. Horribly clear the team is short of pace and creativity. I say it every game, really worries me he can't see it. Never was a result more predictable than yesterday. 

4) Yes-ish, before next season we will have a different ownership structure of some sort. Whether its part or total, mega rich or cheaper local.. I'm not sure. 

5) No. We will scrape enough points to be 5th bottom...looking at results and Rooney's use of Jan transfer window I'm really worried if he stays that next year will be similar. 

[Asanovic70]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

He’s not five games into the role anymore. He has had the equivalent of half a season in charge now. Had he got the job in different circumstances, perhaps fans would be more forgiving.

I think that's harsh Jourdan & I say that as someone who thinks you often post sense - and a lot of what you post here is valid. But often how a side starts a season can auger for the rest of it. Half a season in charge?  What a half a season, a takeover saga, injury to a key player disrupting the balance of a midfield trio. Parallels with Clough circa 2009, an improvement in results & even some mediocre players responding before injuries and a downturn, and some questioning the choice of manager without him even having a full season in charge, inheriting a difficult situation.

 You can't simply blithely dismiss one of our worst ever starts in a season as a momentary aberration. It set the tone. People seem to forget past seasons as comparison or to see parallels, like 2003 where we were often abject (0-3 opening day home loss to Stoke), the coffee-cup game masking a difficult season though Osman proved to be a great loan signing in contrast so far to the five that have come in in terms of impact atm. Last 10, 4W 2D 4L, the wins all coming at home. As the wikipedia entry says, the season was also set against a background of uncertainty re: ownership with Pickering forced to give way & Keith et al set to take over.

A forum exists to vent frustration but I do find some of the comments now wryly amusing as we ponder our next sacrificial victim or flavour of the month, be it Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink or Chris Wilder. Every managerial appointment carries a certain amount of risk. I wasn't keen on Rooney but was won over. We should offer him some leeway in that this is a challenging first job and perhaps some of the guarantees made to him have not been fulfilled. You complain about the loans, remember this was a Plan B, not his preferred set of targets, you could argue about the respective merits of Ladapo etc, but contrast with Birmingham who bought players for money like Cosgrove, OK the flipside is that Sheff W didn't bring in anybody.

The short-term goal is survival, the longer term questions are beyond Rooney and are about ownership & investment. Burley played the market well in 2004-2005 and some of the younger players (Huddlestone) went on to become key, so there was progress after a challenging season. It remains to be seen if this will be the case and you are right to share your concerns.

 

[BramcoteRam84]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

Of course Rooney can be criticised. It’s the nature of football management. He knew this would come with the territory when he lobbied for the job and there was the media clamour for him to be appointed while the seat in Cocu’s office was still warm.

He’s not five games into the role anymore. He has had the equivalent of half a season in charge now. Had he got the job in different circumstances, perhaps fans would be more forgiving.

Blaming Cocu for everything at this point is just lazy. It was 25 games ago. This ‘worst start in Championship history’ left us two points from safety, not 10.

You are saying Rooney should be lauded for the job he has done and I think people have given him credit for it. What people are now questioning is whether he is right for us in the long term. 

While you are right that safety is the aim this season and we have to steer clear of danger by hook or by crook, we are reaching a stage where we should be seeing signs of what is to come.

If you have watched us play for any length of time in recent months, it is not a style that Derby fans are known to enjoy or tolerate, sometimes not even when we are winning. The signs do not look good.

There is a clear aversion to attack minded players. We regularly set up with seven or eight defensive players on the pitch and clearly prioritise stopping the opposition over causing problems for them. Of our five January signings, two of them were defenders and one of them was a defensive midfielder. The only creative player we signed was Roberts and he has started two games in 10. I don’t think it is a coincidence.

I also think it’s a little naive to think that everything will change in the summer and Rooney will bring in the players he wants and needs and we’ll look a totally different prospect.

We made five signings in January and there has been little to no improvement or evolution, and any summer transformation is dependent on the takeover being resolved and going well. Two things that are not guaranteed.

If Rooney wanted us to be more attacking and more exciting, I doubt he is going to wait 30-40 games into his tenure to try and deliver it. We have been safety first since day one, again not something I think is a coincidence.

People are waking up to the possibility that this is not actually a needs must set up, this is how Rooney sees the game.

Top half form from 23 games even with the recent slump. Is that sackable? Seriously? 
The fairest barometer is to look at his reign in his entirety. Yet we’re still down there - how is that not down to the start under Cocu? That’s not lazy - its fact. If we get relegated it would be lazy to blame Wayne. Is he the right man for this season - yes to sack him now and bring someone else in could be complete disaster. Keeping us up means he will deserve a shot at next season.

Is he the man to take us to the next level next season and beyond, Jury is out, not once have I said this will all be sorted in the summer so don’t have the audacity and arrogance to call me naive , but my view is he’s sorted us out to get results. With time to work on things and ability to juggle the squad in the summer I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for next season - unlike you who assesses a 4 game period where we haven’t won a game and assume that’s what it’s going to be for as long as he’s here.