Is our defence any better than midtable standard?

[Longeatonram2020]

2 minutes ago, Duracell said:

If your attack is toothless then it's really hard for your defence to look any good. 

The ball kept coming back at us. We gave possession away cheaply, stood off and didn't do the defensive work in midfield. No surprise that with that pressure, mistakes crept in. Not to mention the lack of movement when any of the back 5 touched the ball, forcing them into dodgy passes.

To answer the thread question, it depends what you mean by 'defence.' Our back 5 is very good, but defending involves all 11 players on the pitch. If Saturday is anything to go by* then our defence is worse than midtable.

 

*and it isn't, otherwise using last year's first game we'd be unbeaten away all season.

With Waghorn or another striker up top the ball would certainly stick and invite less pressure on our defence. I honestly think our defence is one of the top 6 in the league, however for forwards we’re close to bottom 3, certainly for the reading game. Add in Waggy and Lawrence we’re mid table. Sign Jozwiak and a striker we should in theory be top 6 for forwards, so top 6 should be achievable. 

[Longeatonram2020]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

This is what concerns me. Saying someone is good on paper is an irrevelance, the job of the manager is to mould the players into an organised, disciplined, cohesive defensive unit.

Stating hopefully we will improve defensively is not what you employ a manager for, that comment insinuates that matters like that are left to chance and if we do improve great if we don't then hey the players were rubbish. It doesn't work like that. Basic football management.

Well I can’t say categorically if we’ll improve at the back or not can I? So I say ‘hopefully’ we will as the ingredients are all there, I’m not our manager. 
 

Now if Cocu is saying hopefully we can improve that’s a different matter, he’s our manager and as such he should have confidence in his own ability to improve us defensively. 

[Tyler Durden]

7 minutes ago, Longeatonram2020 said:

Well I can’t say categorically if we’ll improve at the back or not can I? So I say ‘hopefully’ we will as the ingredients are all there, I’m not our manager. 
 

Now if Cocu is saying hopefully we can improve that’s a different matter, he’s our manager and as such he should have confidence in his own ability to improve us defensively. 

Agreed I took your comment as we may or may not improve defensively. That is within the managers gift so not out of Cocus sphere of influence. If we don't improve then Cocu needs to be judged accordingly just the same as if he turns our current defensive unit into world beaters. Cocu cannot be divorced from the outcome. It's not down to luck.

[Longeatonram2020]

2 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Agreed I took your comment as we may or may not improve defensively. That is within the managers gift so not out of Cocus sphere of influence. If we don't improve then Cocu needs to be judged accordingly just the same as if he turns our current defensive unit into world beaters. Cocu cannot be divorced from the outcome. It's not down to luck.

Yeah i agree, with what he’s saying and what us fans can see, the club jigsaw as at were is complete at the back and in midfield. If we get the pieces going forward that he wants, then he’s armed himself with all the tools he deems necessary to be successful at this level. 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

I don't want to write anyone off individually just yet, but I think there are far bigger issues than our lack of attacking intent at the minute.

Sorry to say it, but our midfield is poor, compare our current midfield to that of Hendrick, Bryson, Hughes and Thorne. Worlds apart. Bryson scores 16 goals and 2 hat tricks in a season and Hendrick gets you 8 goals, that is without mentioning Thorne and Hughes. 

I think Jozwiak is a given, but to give us any chance of a top 6 finish, we need 2 strikers, 1 winger on top of Jozwiak, a quality midfielder who will control games and for me we need 1 more CB, early 20s stepping up from a league 1 or 2 club who covers the position with a view to stepping up next season. 

We all know we will never sign anywhere near that many players. If we get Jozwiak and a striker and leave it at that we will leave ourselves woefully short.

Mid table will be an achievement for me and in the current financial world, it can hardly be considered surprising.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

If we are playing four at the back in a 4-3-3 with Byrne presumably as our main attacking fullback I would try Shinnie at left back. He has played there quite often for Aberdeen, would be steady a good tackler and tidy enough distribution. Not sure about his attacking prowess but as I say that should mainly come from Byrne and one or the other centre back bringing it out and committing defenders ala Keogh. 

[YorkshireRam]

2 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Everyone blaming the players when it's the management of them that's the problem.....look at Paterson since he left us,he's been scoring for fun,even dowells turned into a quality player apparently.

 

Is 6 goals ''scoring for fun''?

I don't understand comments like this, both players moved to clubs where they featured far more prominently. Paterson was played as a No.10 and Dowell as a No.8, they scored more based on their extra gametime. They didn't show enough with us to warrant the minutes needed to score goals...not sure how that reflects badly on management.

Arguably, if we'd kept Paterson and played him as much as Bristol have, we wouldn't have Louie Sibley in the first team picture, just for perspective (1 less goal than Paterson in half as many games)...

[Premier ram]

18 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Probably not, now Bogle and Lowe have gone.

is that the same Bogle whose defending was his weakness

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

is that the same Bogle whose defending was his weakness

No that's your version of Bogle. This is Bogle who was left covering more than his own position and little support. The Bogle that we saw under Lampard plus more experience, who has been signed by a Prem team. 

[Heisenberg]

2 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

If we are playing four at the back in a 4-3-3 with Byrne presumably as our main attacking fullback I would try Shinnie at left back. He has played there quite often for Aberdeen, would be steady a good tackler and tidy enough distribution. Not sure about his attacking prowess but as I say that should mainly come from Byrne and one or the other centre back bringing it out and committing defenders ala Keogh. 

Shinnie only ever featured at LB for Aberdeen a handful of times, it was earlier on in his career at Inverness when he played there.

The last time he was thrown in at LB I recall, he had a pretty torrid time for Scotland in their defeat away to Kazakhstan.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Just now, Heisenberg said:

Shinnie only ever featured at LB for Aberdeen a handful of times, it was earlier on in his career at Inverness when he played there.

The last time he was thrown in at LB I recall, he had a pretty torrid time for Scotland in their defeat away to Kazakhstan.

Ok I'll take your word for it. Shame as he isnt good enough for midfield.

[Heisenberg]

1 minute ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Ok I'll take your word for it. Shame as he isnt good enough for midfield.

He's OK.

Will score a couple of goals a season and put plenty of effort and energy in when selected, but other than that, there's not much else to his overall game.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

4 minutes ago, Heisenberg said:

He's OK.

Will score a couple of goals a season and put plenty of effort and energy in when selected, but other than that, there's not much else to his overall game.

Yes, I like him but not good enough to propel us forward. Like too many others I'm afraid.

[Rample]

On paper yes. 

Marshall is more than capable, despite his age I'd say he was one of the top 6 keepers in the division last season. 

Wisdom, both at full back under McLaren and centre half last season, is capable of playing in a top 6 side. Byrne I know less about but judging him against Bogle I'd say yes.

Clarke isn't far off being one of the better centre halves in this league, not the finished article but improving all the time. 

MTW I'd expect is capable, too soon to judge but a safe gamble. 

Davies in the right team only due to age. Evans not at the moment but decent cover. 

Left back is more of an issue but Fozzy often defies his critics and Buchanan has serious pedigree. 

Bielik I can see being a midfielder long term but has potential. Adding CDM into the mix then Bird on form is a yes, Shinnie I'm not sure.

So many variables - tactics, who lines up in front of them, confidence, fitness, partnerships, communication, development. 

I would say that it's not something that will hit the ground running. Change in personnel, individuals still getting to grips with us and the league, tactics/what in front of them, lacking fitness. But i can see a defence that by December is starting to grow into a proper unit, and capable of being top half standard by the end of the season. It all depends how much results over the next few months handicap us. 

[Anag Ram]

20 hours ago, Rample said:

On paper yes. 

Marshall is more than capable, despite his age I'd say he was one of the top 6 keepers in the division last season. 

Wisdom, both at full back under McLaren and centre half last season, is capable of playing in a top 6 side. Byrne I know less about but judging him against Bogle I'd say yes.

Clarke isn't far off being one of the better centre halves in this league, not the finished article but improving all the time. 

MTW I'd expect is capable, too soon to judge but a safe gamble. 

Davies in the right team only due to age. Evans not at the moment but decent cover. 

Left back is more of an issue but Fozzy often defies his critics and Buchanan has serious pedigree. 

Bielik I can see being a midfielder long term but has potential. Adding CDM into the mix then Bird on form is a yes, Shinnie I'm not sure.

So many variables - tactics, who lines up in front of them, confidence, fitness, partnerships, communication, development. 

I would say that it's not something that will hit the ground running. Change in personnel, individuals still getting to grips with us and the league, tactics/what in front of them, lacking fitness. But i can see a defence that by December is starting to grow into a proper unit, and capable of being top half standard by the end of the season. It all depends how much results over the next few months handicap us. 

Clarke is trying to cope with a new partner who hasn't settled. 

MTW has now been undone twice in two games by a long ball through the middle which has left him the wrong side of his man. 

That's unforgivable for a man of his experience. I hope he will use his time off wisely.