Live football thread.

[Bris Vegas]

8 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

I think that’s definitely coming. I don’t claim to be an expert in world football, so correct me if any of this is wrong but…

whether Gareth Southgate is a good coach is not really an issue. As an international coach, it not really his job to train the players and make them the best, just to point them all in the right direction. 

the premier league is undoubtably the best league in the world, and it attracts the best managers in the world. Our players aren’t being coached by Gareth Southgate, they’re being coached by pep, Klopp and Tuchel.

most international teams are made up of one or two superstars, if they’re lucky, and then a bunch of players playing in lower leagues or lesser European leagues. The likes of Poland, and wales. The elite teams have a far bigger selection of world class talent. The very best have a squad of heavy hitters, all killer, no filler. That’s where England are now. A whole squad of players that regularly play with and against the best players in the world, learning their trade from the best managers in the world.

Over the past couple of tournaments, I think our players have suffered a bit from the perennial, ‘oh we’re England, we’ll probably duck it up’ stereotype.

i think they’re starting to believe the hype.

we’ve got city players who are used to just relentlessly scoring, like the ducking terminator. They don’t know any other way to play at this stage. There’s a reason we beat Andorra 10-0. It’s not just cos Andorra are crap, they’ve always been crap, but we’ve never beaten them 10-0 before. It’s because we’re pretty much unstoppable, and will steam roller a team like Andorra. Like city steam rolling Watford in the fa cup.  

player for player, we must have the best squad in the world at this stage. They don’t need a world class coach to tell them what to do, they already know what to do. And they absolutely shouldn’t, and I don’t they do, fear anyone, because they are better than anyone they come up against. They’ve proven it on a domestic level, they just need to show it on the international stage now. 

I agree with a lot you say. It’s not a coincidence that Spain ruled the world during the years of Barcelona under Pep, and Germany likewise following the work done by Heynckes and Klopp.

The PL has the best managers right now, and it no doubt plays a part on the national team. 

The only bit I would contest is the quality of our squad. I think we have the best set of right-backs in world football, and a raft of decent attacking wide players and one world class striker. But we also have players like Pickford, Phillips, Maguire and Shaw who really are average.

Player for player I wonder how many would get in France’s team?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

7 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I agree with a lot you say. It’s not a coincidence that Spain ruled the world during the years of Barcelona under Pep, and Germany likewise following the work done by Heynckes and Klopp.

The PL has the best managers right now, and it no doubt plays a part on the national team. 

The only bit I would contest is the quality of our squad. I think we have the best set of right-backs in world football, and a raft of decent attacking wide players and one world class striker. But we also have players like Pickford, Phillips, Maguire and Shaw who really are average.

Player for player I wonder how many would get in France’s team?

Pickford, Phillips, Maguire and Shaw were all far better than average at the Euros.

[Bris Vegas]

2 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Pickford, Phillips, Maguire and Shaw were all far better than average at the Euros.

That’s probably because we were better than Croatia, Scotland, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Denmark.

And we were at home in every game.

I mean, aside from Andy Robertson and a 36-year-old Luka Modric, who from any of those nations above would you have had in place of those players?

There is a reason why Shaw and Maguire are both slaughtered at Man Utd. It’s because they aren’t at that desired top level.

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said:

That’s probably because we were better than Croatia, Scotland, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Denmark.

And we were at home in every game.

I mean, aside from Andy Robertson and a 36-year-old Luka Modric, who from any of those nations above would you have had in place of those players?

There is a reason why Shaw and Maguire are both slaughtered at Man Utd. It’s because they aren’t at that desired top level.

 

Conveniently missing out Germany?

And Shaw didn't exactly do badly in the final.

[TigerTedd]

13 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I agree with a lot you say. It’s not a coincidence that Spain ruled the world during the years of Barcelona under Pep, and Germany likewise following the work done by Heynckes and Klopp.

The PL has the best managers right now, and it no doubt plays a part on the national team. 

The only bit I would contest is the quality of our squad. I think we have the best set of right-backs in world football, and a raft of decent attacking wide players and one world class striker. But we also have players like Pickford, Phillips, Maguire and Shaw who really are average.

Player for player I wonder how many would get in France’s team?

I think they’re all very good, playing in average domestic teams.

And even if they’re the weak links (which I don’t think they are) that still leave 7 excellent players on the pitch, and several on the bench. Which has got to be more on average than most teams.

A lot of teams have to dip into the championship, or a similar level, to make up the numbers and fill their squads. Our options are just getting better and better. 

I remember years ago now they made a big fuss over investing in grass roots, and academies, similar to a German model, but said it would take time to see the effects. I think we’re starting to see those effects now. And that’s really encouraging because it means this isn’t just a flash in the pan, golden age, this is the result of a systematic, sustainable process, that can be repeated, to keep churning world class players off the conveyor belt.

so when I say I think this is the start of a prolonged period of dominance, where we can expect semi finals at least on a regular basis, and we find ourselves among the elite nations, it’s not because I’m getting carried away with the hyperbole, it’s because I can see it’s all built on a strong foundation.

we say a lot about the governing bodies in football, but on this, I think someone in the da got it spot on needs to take a lot of credit. 

[nottingram]

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Conveniently missing out Germany?

And Shaw didn't exactly do badly in the final.

Nor Pickford, who really deserved to win the whole thing with his penalty saves in the final

[Bris Vegas]

7 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Conveniently missing out Germany?

And Shaw didn't exactly do badly in the final.

The worst Germany side of the past 20 years who couldn’t get out of their World Cup group of Sweden, Mexico and South Korea? And the same one who then lost to Macedonia at home and Spain 6-0 just before the tournament? Sorry I missed out that star-studded side.

Point remains, England have yet to beat what I’d classify as a top eight ranked side in the world in a proper competition. 

Under Sven we had even more impressive results. The only difference back then is we faced a proper side in knockout competition earlier than what we have under Southgate. And we had the same result, an agonizing defeat.

[TigerTedd]

4 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

England have yet to beat what I’d classify as a top eight ranked side in the world in a proper competition

There are lots of specific caveats here. Might as well finish it with:

’on a Thursday, in the rain, while the moon was in Aquarius, while hopping on one leg.’

[Bris Vegas]

3 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

There are lots of specific caveats here. Might as well finish it with:

’on a Thursday, in the rain, while the moon was in Aquarius, while hopping on one leg.’

Who have England beat in the World Cup or European Championships who were among the favourites to win it?

Where are the wins over Brazil, Argentina, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Holland…?

Our biggest win during Southgate’s tenure in a major competition was against a Germany side who weren’t even considered among the best 10 sides in the world at the time. Our next best win was probably Colombia on penalties.

[TigerTedd]

49 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Who have England beat in the World Cup or European Championships who were among the favourites to win it?

Where are the wins over Brazil, Argentina, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Holland…?

Our biggest win during Southgate’s tenure in a major competition was against a Germany side who weren’t even considered among the best 10 sides in the world at the time. Our next best win was probably Colombia on penalties.

Where are the games against Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland.

we’ve only played 2 of those teams, if memory serves, and one we only lost to on penos. One we played in the nations league and trounced in their back yard, but that doesn’t count, apparently.

you have no idea how we’d fair against the other teams if we faced them right now. No one does really. But you can’t say we’re crap just cos we’ve never played them. 

[Mucker1884]

Exactly how "Live" is live?  ?‍♂️

 

?

[Malagaram]

1 hour ago, Mucker1884 said:

Exactly how "Live" is live?  ?‍♂️

Totally agree Mck,some people here dont know the meaning of the word.

?

 

[Rammy03]

14 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Who have England beat in the World Cup or European Championships who were among the favourites to win it?

Where are the wins over Brazil, Argentina, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Holland…?

Our biggest win during Southgate’s tenure in a major competition was against a Germany side who weren’t even considered among the best 10 sides in the world at the time. Our next best win was probably Colombia on penalties.

Strange to criticise a manager who hasn't had the opportunity to play most of those sides. You can only beat what's in front of you. We effectively drew to Italy, penalties are a coin toss. We beat Spain in the Nations League but apparently that's not a 'proper' competition which I think is nonsense. We beat Germany when most people before the game were doubting us and bigging up the Germans. It was only after the game that people started saying 'it's not the Germany of old.' It seems like whatever Southgate does, people find a way to criticise it.

[Bris Vegas]

15 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Where are the games against Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland.

we’ve only played 2 of those teams, if memory serves, and one we only lost to on penos. One we played in the nations league and trounced in their back yard, but that doesn’t count, apparently.

you have no idea how we’d fair against the other teams if we faced them right now. No one does really. But you can’t say we’re crap just cos we’ve never played them. 

You’re missing the two defeats against Belgium at the World Cup.

Again, the nations league is glorified friendlies, hence I don’t look at our defeats to Spain, Belgium and Holland during that. Defeats which outweigh that 3-2 win in Sevilla.

I’m not saying we’re crap at all. I’m just saying until we’ve beaten a top team, we can’t be deemed among the contenders.

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

Strange to criticise a manager who hasn't had the opportunity to play most of those sides. You can only beat what's in front of you. We effectively drew to Italy, penalties are a coin toss. We beat Spain in the Nations League but apparently that's not a 'proper' competition which I think is nonsense. We beat Germany when most people before the game were doubting us and bigging up the Germans. It was only after the game that people started saying 'it's not the Germany of old.' It seems like whatever Southgate does, people find a way to criticise it.

I’m not criticising Southgate at all. Just saying he hasn’t done anything more than what Sven achieved.

I don’t buy the we effectively drew to Italy. Same could be said of Colombia. We won one, lost the other.

Likewise, we lost to Portugal twice under Sven.

I’m not sure if anybody expected Germany to beat us. We were at home to a Germany side who failed to get our their World Cup group and one who lost at home to Macedonia and 6-0 to Spain in the lead up to the competition.

I’ll happily concede once we’ve beaten at a top team at a major. 

 

 

[MaltRam]

3 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

You’re missing the two defeats against Belgium at the World Cup.

Again, the nations league is glorified friendlies, hence I don’t look at our defeats to Spain, Belgium and Holland during that. Defeats which outweigh that 3-2 win in Sevilla.

I’m not saying we’re crap at all. I’m just saying until we’ve beaten a top team, we can’t be deemed among the contenders.

Semi finalist and finalist in the last two tournaments and you can't see them being contenders. How do you go through life being so unutterably dismal? If you won the lottery you'd moan it wasn't a rollover. Can't be doing with so much Eeyorish misery, so you win only my second ever block.

[Rammy03]

6 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

I’m not criticising Southgate at all. Just saying he hasn’t done anything more than what Sven achieved.

That's just not true and you know it. 

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, Rammy03 said:

That's just not true and you know it. 

In terms of results he hasn’t. I like Southgate and think he has brought the England team together more than any previous manager since Venables.

But in terms of results on the pitch:

Sven WC 2002:

Sweden (1-1), Argentina (1-0), Nigeria (0-0), Denmark (3-0), Brazil (2-1 loss to champions).

Sven Euro 2004:

France (2-1 loss), Swiss (3-0), Croatia (4-2), Portugal (2-2 pen loss)

Sven WC 2006:

Paraguay (1-0), Trinidad (2-0), Sweden (2-2), Ecuador (1-0), Portugal (0-0 pen loss)

Southgate WC 2018:

Tunisia (2-1), Panama (6-1), Belgium (1-0 loss), Colombia (1-1 pen win), Sweden (2-0), Croatia (2-1 loss), Belgium (2-0 loss)

Southgate Euro 2020 (all at home):

Croatia (1-0), Scotland (0-0), Czech (1-0), Germany (2-0), Denmark (2-1), Italy (1-1 pen loss).

Both have striking resemblances. Beating teams they should beat (bar some draws with Sweden, Nigeria and Scotland) and losing the moment we face a proper contender be it on penalties or being outclassed (Brazil and Belgium).

The only difference is Southgate has yet to face a proper contender in the knockout rounds until the semi-final or final. Sven faced them earlier. That’s the luck of the draw.

[Bris Vegas]

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

Semi finalist and finalist in the last two tournaments and you can't see them being contenders. How do you go through life being so unutterably dismal? If you won the lottery you'd moan it wasn't a rollover. Can't be doing with so much Eeyorish misery, so you win only my second ever block.

Can’t understand blocking somebody for having a different opinion. Unless it’s personal or offensive of course.

For what it’s worth, I was listening to the Gary Neville podcast earlier and he was pretty confident in saying England currently have their best team since 1966 and possibly their best ever team. Adding that the next step is a major trophy.

I just can’t see it until we beat some top teams.

Before Germany won the World Cup in 2014, they’d made the final in Euro 08, semi-final in 2010 and semi-final in Euro 2012. But in the midst of that they had big wins over Argentina, England, France, Portugal and of course Brazil. 

Until England record similar scalps I just can’t take them, or the idea that we’re ready to win a major, seriously.

 

[TigerTedd]

2 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

Can’t understand blocking somebody for having a different opinion. Unless it’s personal or offensive of course.

For what it’s worth, I was listening to the Gary Neville podcast earlier and he was pretty confident in saying England currently have their best team since 1966 and possibly their best ever team. Adding that the next step is a major trophy.

I just can’t see it until we beat some top teams.

Before Germany won the World Cup in 2014, they’d made the final in Euro 08, semi-final in 2010 and semi-final in Euro 2012. But in the midst of that they had big wins over Argentina, England, France, Portugal and of course Brazil. 

Until England record similar scalps I just can’t take them, or the idea that we’re ready to win a major, seriously.

 

The problem I have with this opinion is that if we’d have been the top teams we’ve already come across, we would be champions already. 

you’ve pointed out that Germany had some good tournaments before 2014, but they must have still lost at some point. That’s what we’re doing, we’re building momentum and experience, and getting better and better as a team.

Its like you’re saying ‘I can’t believe they’re good enough to be champions until they prove it by becoming champions.’ You’ve got to have a little bit of faith in football.

How far you go is always about the luck of the draw. If you face Federer in the first round of Wimbledon, you’re screwed. Who knows how far you could’ve got. But either way, you clearly weren’t the best player in the competition. Sven was unlucky. No one is saying that Sven did a crap job. We had a great team back then, we could’ve won something, but we just weren’t quite the best.

but there’s a lot more to going deep in a competition than a lucky draw. You’ve got to beat those teams you’re expected to beat. You’ve got to stay disciplined and manage fitness levels. Try comparing Southgate to Hodgson instead. Head and shoulders better.

I take heart that we’ve not been battered by any of the big teams. They’re all games we could’ve won on a different day. But the elite teams don’t wallow in self pity on that, they don’t go into games thinking if luck is with us, then we can win this one. The elite teams know they’re better than the opponent and will win the game. I think as a team we’re at that stage now, and truly believe we can beat anyone. Because domestically, a lot of our players are facing the best teams, and time and time again proving that they are better.

So I really feel like we’re building to something big. Maybe it won’t be this tournament. It took Germany  3 good finishes before they did it in 2014. But I’m looking forward to another stride forward at least.