Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: He played for us 3 years ago. A lot can change in that period of time. Harry Wilson did alright last year... scoring more than Ince’s best season with us. How many of Wilson’s were penalties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RYRAM Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 I think Tom would kick on with a certain Mr Rodney's help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 Ince is on £30k a week. We aren't signing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, sage said: Ince is on £30k a week. We aren't signing him. A loan might be possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 Just now, Jimbo Ram said: A loan might be possible... How much of that 30k would stoke want and how much could we afford? I don't think people realise how tight money will be this coming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 minute ago, sage said: How much of that 30k would stoke want and how much could we afford? I don't think people realise how tight money will be this coming season. I do, frees and loans. We have freed up quite a bit off the wage bill, but agree things will be tight ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: I do, frees and loans. We have freed up quite a bit off the wage bill, but agree things will be tight ? I would also add he was one of the first Horsemen of the Apocalypse that led to our demise post Wembley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, sage said: I would also add he was one of the first Horsemen of the Apocalypse that led to our demise post Wembley. What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Jimbo Ram said: What were his stats again ? Ibe 31 shots 5 goals 6.2 spg Wilson 113 shots 16 goals 7.06 spg Bamford 58 shots 8 goals 7.25 spg Ince 325 shots 37 goals 8.78 spg Russell 283 shots 31 goals 9.12 spg Ward (no info available pre 2013) 143 shots 13 goals 11 spg Lawrence 250 shots 22 goals 11.36 spg Ince is the only one who's been made the centrepiece of all our play and allowed to have an extraordinarily large number of shots compared to his teammates, so naturally his stats look pretty good, but put in him any of our teams pre or post his spell here and his stats would not be anything special at all. Now for some fun, because I'm very, very bored... In the 2017/18 season where Vydra was used in the no. 10 role (which some people seem to think would suit Ince) he scored a goal every 3.57 shots, meaning theoretically if you gave him exactly the same number of scoring opportunities as Ince he could have scored 91 from the same chances ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 Just now, Jimbo Ram said: What do you mean? In the QPR/Wembley season we played amazing team football and continued to do so the following season until january when we brought in Bent and Ince on loan and our season fell apart. Obviously we had injuries as well, but our system of play changed to accodate 2 goalscorers who were only interested in receiving the final or penultimate pass in a move. We had some good games after but that amazing pattern of play was lost. This is why Steve Mac II was determined to bring back Martin because he was the fulcrum. We went downhill from that January 2014 transfer window. I wrote a massive post on this about 3 years ago that i keep promising myself to find it and it bump up again to motivate myself to write a sequel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Coconut said: Ibe 31 shots 5 goals 6.2 spg Wilson 113 shots 16 goals 7.06 spg Bamford 58 shots 8 goals 7.25 spg Ince 325 shots 37 goals 8.78 spg Russell 283 shots 31 goals 9.12 spg Ward (no info available pre 2013) 143 shots 13 goals 11 spg Lawrence 250 shots 22 goals 11.36 spg There's really now much difference between any of them in terms of their effectiveness infront of goal, but Ince is the only one who's been made the centrepiece of all our play and allowed to have an extraordinarily large number of shots compared to his teammates, so naturally his stats look pretty good. Now for some fun, because I'm very, very bored... In the 2017/18 season where Vydra was used in the no. 10 role (which some people seem to think would suit Ince) he scored a goal every 3.57 shots, meaning theoretically if you gave him exactly the same number of scoring opportunities as Ince have scored 91 goals from the same number of shots ? What’s the obsession with shots ?Goals and assists of more interest to me. Ince provided both in shed loads. I am bored with the constant criticism of Ince who achieved more than most during that period. Moan at those that didn’t achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, sage said: In the QPR/Wembley season we played amazing team football and continued to do so the following season until january when we brought in Bent and Ince on loan and our season fell apart. Obviously we had injuries as well, but our system of play changed to accodate 2 goalscorers who were only interested in receiving the final or penultimate pass in a move. We had some good games after but that amazing pattern of play was lost. This is why Steve Mac II was determined to bring back Martin because he was the fulcrum. We went downhill from that January 2014 transfer window. I wrote a massive post on this about 3 years ago that i keep promising myself to find it and it bump up again to motivate myself to write a sequel. I would blame the decline on all of the injuries...not the two players who scored all of the goals ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiddingsRam Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 Not trawled through but seen Zohore is available from WBA , could be a good loan ,doubt they would command too much on wages , big focal centre point who can play a bit too . Always liked him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Jimbo Ram said: I would blame the decline on all of the injuries...not the two players who scored all of the goals ? Where did we finish that season, having been in the top 2 till Feb? 8th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, sage said: Where did we finish that season, having been in the top 2 till Feb? 8th Exactly....where would we have finished without Ince and Bent’s goals when we had all of the injuries from March? 12th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 15 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: What’s the obsession with shots ?Goals and assists of more interest to me. Ince provided both in shed loads. I am bored with the constant criticism of Ince who achieved more than most during that period. Moan at those that didn’t achieve. It shows how much more opportunity he had to impress than others, based on us changing the way we played from everything being equal, to everything being about providing for Tom Ince* which was directly opposed to what had bought us all we had built up between 2013 & Feb 2015. (*and Darren Bent, who without him occupying the attention of opposition defenders worrying about him running in behind them - the key difference to Ince and Bent & Martin and Bent as a partnership - would have seen Ince provide a similar return to that which he has at other clubs) It's all about the bigger picture. The only reason Ince provided so many goals and assists was because, to a longer term and cumulative detrimental effect on the rest of the team, we set him up for success. He took advantage of that very well, there's no doubting that. I'm not blaming Tom Ince for any of this, I'm just pointing out the conditions he needs to be a success. We don't meet, can't meet, won't meet and shouldn't meet them going forwards. To do so would be a backwards step. We need to move on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustOneBiblicalKazim Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 Yeah let’s blame the 2 people who carried us for about 2-3 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: Exactly....where would we have finished without Ince and Bent’s goals when we had all of the injuries from March? 12th? Where would we have finished if we'd bought in some backup which was similar in style to the players we lost? There's little difference betwen 8th and 12th, you've still missed out on the playoffs - there's more harm in changing your approach for short term gain. If we'd have said farwell to both Ince & Bent after the loans we'd have been better off in the long run. Signing them permanently was a mistake. When we did sell Ince the same sort of thing was said "..but where would we be without his goals?", the next season Vydra hit 21 in the league! Whenever Brentford lose one of their 10, 15, 20 goal a season forwards do they ask the same question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, JustOneChrissyMartin said: Yeah let’s blame the 2 people who carried us for about 2-3 months Exactly ? Bizarre to say the least ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 27 minutes ago, JustOneChrissyMartin said: Yeah let’s blame the 2 people who carried us for about 2-3 months 18 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: Exactly ? Bizarre to say the least ? ...but this is exactly what quite a few don't seem to grasp! If the only thing you look at is the goals and assists column you'll never get it. It's not blaming the players at all, it's analysing them, looking at their individual strenghts and weaknesses, which sort of teams they fit into, which they don't, looking at what the long term affect will be if you make them the basis of your attacking play, how it will affect other areas of / players in your squad. Tom Ince is the same player he always was, albeit maybe a little slower and less motivated nowadays, and he wouldn't be a good fit for our current squad, no matter what his statistics between 2015-2017 were, how he achieved (or we enabled him to achieve) them. If you really want to impede the progress of Knight, Sibley & whoever else to get the best out of Tom Ince then go for it. If you want to sign Tom Ince and have all these other players perform to their best then be prepared to see the same Tom Ince you've seen at Notts County, Crystal Palace (actually he did OK there, in the Prem), Hull, Forest, Huddersfield & Stoke and be prepared to be underwhelmed... or just blame Cocu for not using him properly, that's probably easier than accepting that in reality he's just your average Championship winger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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