To all the moaners....

[Gone]

I have witnessed some good football alongside some absolute poo football this season (especially away from home). On all of these threads I keep reading that Cocu has a master plan, but it’s not something I can put a finger on. So...........Can someone please articulately explain what Cocu is trying to build, please be objective in your reply on what we are trying to achieve. Cheers Texas 

[TommyPowell]

4 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Have you not watched Cup games before TommyP? We were at home and cup upsets happen. That's partly what makes Cup games so exciting. But yeah you're right football is all about money nowadays not necessarily about winning.

I  seen more cup matches than youve had years but unlike you i dont claim to know everything,However i always think of the proverb THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO CANNOT SEE

[StantonRam]

11 hours ago, TexasRam said:

I have witnessed some good football alongside some absolute poo football this season (especially away from home). On all of these threads I keep reading that Cocu has a master plan, but it’s not something I can put a finger on. So...........Can someone please articulately explain what Cocu is trying to build, please be objective in your reply on what we are trying to achieve. Cheers Texas 

My understanding from what he has said is that it's a 3 year plan.  This season is about bringing on Academy players and deciding who else he wants to keep.  Target finish - top 10.  There'll be a few signings and departures this summer but not many, more departures than signings I'd guess.  Target finish in 2021 - top 6.  If that doesn't get us up, more signings and Academy recruits and target finish for 2022 is most definitely top 2, take no prisoners, spend big on 1 or 2 PL quality players if we have to etc.

It's not the 'now or never' Lampard strategy, and this season was always going to be harder without the 3 loanees.  I still think that top 10 is achievable, and next season we'll see the benefit of blooding the young players now.  Even if we had gone out and bought 3-4 championship journeymen (we've tried that before many times) instead of using the Academy I'm not sure if the points tally would be that much different, we might have drawn a few more games that we actually lost but I doubt if there'd have been many more wins.

The patchy results have been the negative side of this, because we seem to have gone backwards compared to last season.  We're gambling on this transitional season leading to a better tomorrow, but whilst the transition takes place we have to tolerate the mistakes on and off the pitch, the sometimes bizarre selections, the weird prejudice against Marriott blah blah.

The biggest problem that the likes of Cocu experience (and Rooney will find the same thing when he becomes a manager) is that, having played mostly at the highest level, it's difficult to advise players with less natural ability than yourself because you really have no idea of what it's like to have less natural ability than yourself.  Thus we see Cocu building game plans on the assumption that the skill and intelligence of his team is above the level that it actually is, hence the silly mistakes at the back, fluffed chances upfront, losing the ball in midfield etc.  Our players are mostly pretty good at this level, but not at the level of Cocu/Rooney, if they were they'd be playing in the PL.

The other way to do this is to hire a Pulis/Allardyce type manager with a perpetual 4-5-1, play hoofball up to Martin every time and hope in every game for either a 0-0 or a sneaky 1-0 win on the counter.  If we had done that we might have more points, but it would make watching paint dry seem exciting by comparison.  The reason we didn't do that is probably because we don't have the players for that, I mean how would Holmes/Lawrence/Knight/Bogle/Lowe fit into that kind of game plan?

Most people seem OK to give him the benefit of the doubt for now, including me, but next season I don't think people will be so forgiving, so I do hope that he starts to get it right from August onwards.

LR2

[Tyler Durden]

17 hours ago, IslandExile said:

I have been called a "pompous twit" for starting this "intolerant" post and I think I may have made others think I'm against opinions, particularly on team selections.

In that case, I am very sorry for expressing myself so badly.

I am all in favour of constructive criticisms. Football is all about opinions. Everyone has ideas about team selections - heck I get upset every time, I see the team sheet and Martin or Marriott are not on it.

I am just being worn down by the negativity of some of the posts on here, not just those about team selection but every move made by Cocu - or even the club - is lambasted in one way or another. I used team selections as an example in my original post but I should not have done so. It was a bad example because it made people think I was only complaining about those that 5 seconds after the team is announced find fault with it.

There is a case for almost every player at the club to be part of the team, even Scott Malone. So, inevitably, people will have different ideas on the team put out.

But it's not that. It's those that always find fault - almost as a hobby.

I believe Cocu is building something great here. Others may not think the same way and that's fine. But, and I really do include myself in this, we all need to take a more balanced view.

Thanks. And sorry for not being clearer. Apologies to everyone and especially to @Curtains. I like to hear their opinion.

At least you've had the integrity and cahoonas to come out and admit in retrospect that a thread with that title was always going to divisive and start people off on what was already a very emotive subject.

At least now it has thrown it out there just because you don't agree with whatever it doesn't make your opinion any less valid than another person's and doesn't also make you automatically negative if it is in variance with the status quo.

More posters on here should take that onboard and show a little more tolerance to other people's opinions or views.

[Mafiabob]

Can’t we just all call each other nonce instead? Solves debates straight away 

[NottsRam77]

18 hours ago, IslandExile said:

I have been called a "pompous twit" for starting this "intolerant" post and I think I may have made others think I'm against opinions, particularly on team selections.

In that case, I am very sorry for expressing myself so badly.

I am all in favour of constructive criticisms. Football is all about opinions. Everyone has ideas about team selections - heck I get upset every time, I see the team sheet and Martin or Marriott are not on it.

I am just being worn down by the negativity of some of the posts on here, not just those about team selection but every move made by Cocu - or even the club - is lambasted in one way or another. I used team selections as an example in my original post but I should not have done so. It was a bad example because it made people think I was only complaining about those that 5 seconds after the team is announced find fault with it.

There is a case for almost every player at the club to be part of the team, even Scott Malone. So, inevitably, people will have different ideas on the team put out.

But it's not that. It's those that always find fault - almost as a hobby.

I believe Cocu is building something great here. Others may not think the same way and that's fine. But, and I really do include myself in this, we all need to take a more balanced view.

Thanks. And sorry for not being clearer. Apologies to everyone and especially to @Curtains. I like to hear their opinion.

You lost me when u said even scott Malone ??

im joking lol 

[NottsRam77]

There’s a lot of frustration about 

I like in principle what PC is trying to do... I really do. 

sometimes it’s hard to remember that when u see us concede yet another soft goal from a corner or set piece or play ourselves aimlessly into trouble or go from moving the ball one half as if we we’re Barcelona to not being able to string two passes together as if it was the Paul jewel era all over again.

the big picture is that we as a club have made a lot of bad decisions, signings, wages, contracts, managers the lot and that sort of thing doesn’t change overnight an d or in one or two transfer windows 

all the staunch cocu brigade talk about progress and I totally agree, my measurement of progress is so small after what’s gone by if we finish this season in the same league and start next year with the same manager I’ll take that as a good starting point .. throw in a promotion derailing victory over the red dogs and I’ll be pretty content 

I try and look at things as balanced as I possibly can, The emergence of knight and bird (bird in particular) has been a really really big bonus,  Whittaker and sibley are being shown the ropes and hopefully will settle into a cut throat league.

the other side of that ... and this is for me, I think lowe and to a slightly lesser extent bogle theyve  shown despite their swashbuckling assets, pace, lovely feet and high on the ball skillsets they are still really lacking some key basic fundamentals that I was hoping to see more of as the season progressed ... ie coached into them 

again a reality check for myself is that they are still both v young and need the same time and patience as any other 

I get as wound up and as frustrated as the next man when I see the basics being done badly it’s only Cos Winning a drug and its Hard to come off lol 

[RamNut]

3 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

the other side of that ... and this is for me, I think lowe and to a slightly lesser extent bogle theyve  shown despite their swashbuckling assets, pace, lovely feet and high on the ball skillsets they are still really lacking some key basic fundamentals that I was hoping to see more of as the season progressed 

again a reality check for myself is that they are still both v young and need the same time and patience as any other 

I agree. That pair can drive me crackers.

Bogle seemed well focussed and back to his best in the first half at sheff wed. But throughout the season he has had a tendency to overrun the ball, lose possession, concede free kicks, and allow the ball to be crossed into the box (Bristol). 
lowe is even more frustrating. 
at the moment I think we can only cope with one or the other. not both. They were dropped for a reason .
Fozzy at left back and Clarke in the middle would have been better v Man Utd. 

In the event they did ok. (Maybe a bit weak for their second goal), but neither were brilliant. 

[Tyler Durden]

21 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

There’s a lot of frustration about 

I like in principle what PC is trying to do... I really do. 

sometimes it’s hard to remember that when u see us concede yet another soft goal from a corner or set piece or play ourselves aimlessly into trouble or go from moving the ball one half as if we we’re Barcelona to not being able to string two passes together as if it was the Paul jewel era all over again.

the big picture is that we as a club have made a lot of bad decisions, signings, wages, contracts, managers the lot and that sort of thing doesn’t change overnight an d or in one or two transfer windows 

all the staunch cocu brigade talk about progress and I totally agree, my measurement of progress is so small after what’s gone by if we finish this season in the same league and start next year with the same manager I’ll take that as a good starting point .. throw in a promotion derailing victory over the red dogs and I’ll be pretty content 

Key theme in all of that is expectations....the biggest cause for frustration this season is supporters internal expectations.....we should be doing better than this, we should be at least be in the Top 6, Cocu should be getting more out of the players he has at his disposal than he is etc etc 

You've set your own internal bar relatively lowly this season (in my opinion) which is stay in the same division and have the same manager next year, probably given our turnover of managers then the second isn't maybe such a low expectation after all. 

Managing supporters expectations probably is the biggest thing the club has fallen foul of this year and I don't envy them one bit in that respect but ultimately it's something the club needs to be acutely aware of and react and respond accordingly.

[Srg]

18 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Key theme in all of that is expectations....the biggest cause for frustration this season is supporters internal expectations.....we should be doing better than this, we should be at least be in the Top 6, Cocu should be getting more out of the players he has at his disposal than he is etc etc 

You've set your own internal bar relatively lowly this season (in my opinion) which is stay in the same division and have the same manager next year, probably given our turnover of managers then the second isn't maybe such a low expectation after all. 

Managing supporters expectations probably is the biggest thing the club has fallen foul of this year and I don't envy them one bit in that respect but ultimately it's something the club needs to be acutely aware of and react and respond accordingly.

The view of he should be getting more out of this group of players is actually maddening. Not saying you hold this view, you might, but who knows... Anyway, let’s break this down shall we?

Last season, we scraped into the play offs following a remarkable end of season run. That team included 3 full international players who are now playing week in week out in the premier league, as well as Keogh and the likes of Johnson. So, a team which had vastly superior players through it only just managed it through a good bit of form when it mattered.

This season then... we have a back up goalkeeper loanee starting, we lost our captain, our big signing through serious injury, Curtis has fell off a cliff, Malone has reverted to the shocking player he is and we’ve had multiple scandals off the pitch.

Martin is another year older and all information seems to point to him not being able to play week in week out because of health reasons. Marriott can’t stay fit and can’t take a chance when he gets one. Bogle got injured and lost all form and confidence. Holmes was looking phenomenal and yep, you guessed it, got injured. Lawrence finally seemed to have clicked and oh look, subbed off injured just this week. Wisdom doing well out of the blue? Well, it’s illness time.

I just really don’t see how anyone can look at this squad which is made up of scraps of a team which just made the play offs, got significantly worse through loanees leaving and has been constantly having to be patched up through no fault of Cocu’s and think... “yeah, that’s a top 6 squad that.”

Yes, we have seen iffy teams make the play offs and even go up before. The one thing they tend to always have though is luck when it comes to keeping a healthy squad together and in form. Something we haven’t had for any run at all.

Through all of this ridiculousness on and off the field, Cocu has managed to fully unlock Max Bird’s potential when it seemed all hope was gone against Scunthorpe this year. He’s embedded Jason Knight as a valuable first team player. He’s eased Sibley through to a wonderful performance on a big stage this week. 

Long and short of it... squad is pap, he’s doing what he can. And I’m all for it if it means I don’t have to watch us trot out a team with Davies, Huddlestone, Rooney and Martin as the spine with a combined age of 400 and the speed of Craig Ramage’s wit. 

[Ramarena]

15 minutes ago, Srg said:

The view of he should be getting more out of this group of players is actually maddening. Not saying you hold this view, you might, but who knows... Anyway, let’s break this down shall we?

Last season, we scraped into the play offs following a remarkable end of season run. That team included 3 full international players who are now playing week in week out in the premier league, as well as Keogh and the likes of Johnson. So, a team which had vastly superior players through it only just managed it through a good bit of form when it mattered.

This season then... we have a back up goalkeeper loanee starting, we lost our captain, our big signing through serious injury, Curtis has fell off a cliff, Malone has reverted to the shocking player he is and we’ve had multiple scandals off the pitch.

Martin is another year older and all information seems to point to him not being able to play week in week out because of health reasons. Marriott can’t stay fit and can’t take a chance when he gets one. Bogle got injured and lost all form and confidence. Holmes was looking phenomenal and yep, you guessed it, got injured. Lawrence finally seemed to have clicked and oh look, subbed off injured just this week. Wisdom doing well out of the blue? Well, it’s illness time.

I just really don’t see how anyone can look at this squad which is made up of scraps of a team which just made the play offs, got significantly worse through loanees leaving and has been constantly having to be patched up through no fault of Cocu’s and think... “yeah, that’s a top 6 squad that.”

Yes, we have seen iffy teams make the play offs and even go up before. The one thing they tend to always have though is luck when it comes to keeping a healthy squad together and in form. Something we haven’t had for any run at all.

Through all of this ridiculousness on and off the field, Cocu has managed to fully unlock Max Bird’s potential when it seemed all hope was gone against Scunthorpe this year. He’s embedded Jason Knight as a valuable first team player. He’s eased Sibley through to a wonderful performance on a big stage this week. 

Long and short of it... squad is pap, he’s doing what he can. And I’m all for it if it means I don’t have to watch us trot out a team with Davies, Huddlestone, Rooney and Martin as the spine with a combined age of 400 and the speed of Craig Ramage’s wit. 

You forgot our summer marque signing going down with an ACL as well

[Srg]

Just now, Ramarena said:

You forgot our summer marque signing going down with an ACL as well

I didn’t, 3rd paragraph... but no harm in putting an exclamation point on that. 

[Ramarena]

Sorry my mistake.......must have got bored reading through all your excuses for Cocu the clown ?

[Jourdan]

3 hours ago, Srg said:

The view of he should be getting more out of this group of players is actually maddening. Not saying you hold this view, you might, but who knows... Anyway, let’s break this down shall we?

Last season, we scraped into the play offs following a remarkable end of season run. That team included 3 full international players who are now playing week in week out in the premier league, as well as Keogh and the likes of Johnson. So, a team which had vastly superior players through it only just managed it through a good bit of form when it mattered.

This season then... we have a back up goalkeeper loanee starting, we lost our captain, our big signing through serious injury, Curtis has fell off a cliff, Malone has reverted to the shocking player he is and we’ve had multiple scandals off the pitch.

Martin is another year older and all information seems to point to him not being able to play week in week out because of health reasons. Marriott can’t stay fit and can’t take a chance when he gets one. Bogle got injured and lost all form and confidence. Holmes was looking phenomenal and yep, you guessed it, got injured. Lawrence finally seemed to have clicked and oh look, subbed off injured just this week. Wisdom doing well out of the blue? Well, it’s illness time.

I just really don’t see how anyone can look at this squad which is made up of scraps of a team which just made the play offs, got significantly worse through loanees leaving and has been constantly having to be patched up through no fault of Cocu’s and think... “yeah, that’s a top 6 squad that.”

Yes, we have seen iffy teams make the play offs and even go up before. The one thing they tend to always have though is luck when it comes to keeping a healthy squad together and in form. Something we haven’t had for any run at all.

Through all of this ridiculousness on and off the field, Cocu has managed to fully unlock Max Bird’s potential when it seemed all hope was gone against Scunthorpe this year. He’s embedded Jason Knight as a valuable first team player. He’s eased Sibley through to a wonderful performance on a big stage this week. 

Long and short of it... squad is pap, he’s doing what he can. And I’m all for it if it means I don’t have to watch us trot out a team with Davies, Huddlestone, Rooney and Martin as the spine with a combined age of 400 and the speed of Craig Ramage’s wit. 

Last season is irrelevant to how the current team should be performing. The make up of the league is so different.

You should only judge the current squad relative to the other teams currently in the division.

I think it’s fair to say Cocu has had challenging circumstances to work under - financial difficulties, untimely injuries and untimely controversies. I think it’s also fair to say that he has conducted himself very well and tried his best in these circumstances.

But I don’t think it’s fair to deflect all responsibility onto the players and say we have a poor squad and suggest that Cocu has very little to work with. Because it’s disingenuous in the extreme.

This would be a totally reasonable thing to say if we had the comparatively meagre resources and talent pool of Preston, Millwall, Charlton, Barnsley, Luton and Wigan amongst others.

The truth is those clubs would walk over hot coals to have some of the talent we have, and the likes of Gary Rowett and Alex Neil would absolutely relish working with a group of players like ours.

I think it’s fairer to say that we have a good squad and a good manager. But both have underachieved this season for a multitude of reasons. No-one escapes blame. Let’s learn from it and do better next year.

[Srg]

5 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Last season is irrelevant to how the current team should be performing. The make up of the league is so different.

You should only judge the current squad relative to the other teams currently in the division.

I think it’s fair to say Cocu has had challenging circumstances to work under - financial difficulties, untimely injuries and untimely controversies. I think it’s also fair to say that he has conducted himself very well and tried his best in these circumstances.

But I don’t think it’s fair to deflect all responsibility onto the players and say we have a poor squad and suggest that Cocu has very little to work with. Because it’s disingenuous in the extreme.

This would be a totally reasonable thing to say if we had the comparatively meagre resources and talent pool of Preston, Millwall, Charlton, Barnsley, Luton and Wigan amongst others.

The truth is those clubs would walk over hot coals to have some of the talent we have, and the likes of Gary Rowett and Alex Neil would absolutely relish working with a group of players like ours.

I think it’s fairer to say that we have a good squad and a good manager. But both have underachieved this season for a multitude of reasons. No-one escapes blame. Let’s learn from it and do better next year.

Can’t disagree with you more. 

[Rab a dab doo]

Spot on.  

Hopefully all the off field problems and injuries will have cleared up,

We'll be able to get a couple of new signings in to further strengthen, along with promoting some of our promising youngsters and then go again next year.

Onwards and upwards.

Chin up lads

[Jourdan]

12 minutes ago, Srg said:

Can’t disagree with you more. 

OK, so who are the poor players that Millwall and Preston and the likes wouldn’t touch?

Mason Bennett - largely an impact player and usually way down the pecking order while he was here - is getting starts for Millwall and they are chasing the play off positions.

How do we have a poor squad?

[Srg]

10 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

OK, so who are the poor players that Millwall and Preston and the likes wouldn’t touch?

Mason Bennett - largely an impact player and usually way down the pecking order while he was here - is getting starts for Millwall and they are chasing the play off positions.

How do we have a poor squad?

Literally just been through this. You don’t agree, that’s fine. You’re wrong, but it’s fine. You do you. 

[IlsonDerby]

On 06/03/2020 at 07:03, MuespachRam said:

They had Ighalo and Lingard playing up front and lindelhof and bailey at the back....for gods sake, we will be coming across better than that against Blackburn on Sunday..!! 

If you truly believe this then I dunno where to start. It was disappointing but their first goal was luck. Nothing but luck. 
 

The second goal should have been cleared regardless of who played centre back. It was school boy to allow it to get to Ighalo like that. 
 

 

[MuespachRam]

29 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

If you truly believe this then I dunno where to start. It was disappointing but their first goal was luck. Nothing but luck. 
 

The second goal should have been cleared regardless of who played centre back. It was school boy to allow it to get to Ighalo like that. 
 

 

You argument doesn’t make sense at all... and yes I do believe it, all 4 of the players mentioned are absolutely rubbish and should not be anywhere near a team like Manchester United.