Alph Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Personally I'd get rid of all statues - I don't think they add anything to anyone - If someone has made a contribution to history they're in the history books, not sure why we need an eyesore of some uggo from years long gone There's a point made by this American comedian/writer about statues - Essentially saying yes, many 'great' people from history had dark sides - But that people in the future will judge us in the same way I think his points about our clothes being made in sweatshops and phone parts coming from cobalt essentially mined by slaves (in 2020, yep, that's our moral line apparently...) is interesting I have to disagree, cheron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 21 minutes ago, Alpha said: I have to disagree, cheron I worked in advertising for a decade - That, my friend, is a beautiful sight ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 47 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Personally I'd get rid of all statues - I don't think they add anything to anyone - If someone has made a contribution to history they're in the history books, not sure why we need an eyesore of some uggo from years long gone There's a point made by this American comedian/writer about statues - Essentially saying yes, many 'great' people from history had dark sides - But that people in the future will judge us in the same way I think his points about our clothes being made in sweatshops and phone parts coming from cobalt essentially mined by slaves (in 2020, yep, that's our moral line apparently...) is interesting Some really good points but I have to disagree about the blank canvass you seem to want to see. For me history has to be visible. It being there isn’t glorification beyond the generation in which it was erected. After personal memory has gone you are left with history for us to learn from. ... I think you make a very valid point about sweat shops and what is politely called “low cost manufacturing” over the last 20 odd years I have found myself laughing when as a European supplier of big OEMs / Buyers want you to sign ethics statements, safety management, workforce responsibility clauses, manage your recycling, monitor your pollution, and a whole load of things ... then they go and buy stuff in Bangladesh and Vietnam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 15 hours ago, i-Ram said: I would remind you that your original point was: “the poor black lad can't change his skin colour and because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job”. A sweeping generalisation, which you cannot possibly evidence, but I would say is statistically and anecdotally untrue. To suggest every employer will take a white candidate rather than a better black candidate makes you, in my opinion, part of the problem. Why exaggerate the position. Does it make you feel good or superior? There are no doubt some employers who might racially discriminate, and in those cases we as a society need to ensure the relevant laws are applied to eradicate such injustice. Not really a sweeping generalisation, you just didn't highlight the whole clause that gave the sentence meaning. Your comprehension skills are either lacking, or you're just deliberately being antagonistic "because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job" I'm specifically talking about institutonal racism, I'm not talking about all job interviews ever. Not every job interview will have institutionally racist selection in play - of course not. Just that where it is in play - by definition skin colour will go against you, and you can't change the colour of your skin Anyway - much as it's a laugh to play semantics, it's more constructive to actually focus on the point in question. So as you were I preferred you when you did the virtue-signalling post about being nice to people ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Not really a sweeping generalisation, you just didn't highlight the whole clause that gave the sentence meaning. Your comprehension skills are either lacking, or you're just deliberately being antagonistic "because of instutional racism is always going to find it harder to get that job" I'm specifically talking about institutonal racism, I'm not talking about all job interviews ever. Not every job interview will have institutionally racist selection in play - of course not. Just that where it is in play - by definition skin colour will go against you, and you can't change the colour of your skin Anyway - much as it's a laugh to play semantics, it's more constructive to actually focus on the point in question. So as you were I preferred you when you did the virtue-signalling post about being nice to people ? Is it institutional racism or education? Up to the age of 16 (GCSEs) things are fairly level results wise, with 1 black person for every 15 white. Then, despite a roughly equal drop in percentage of blacks and whites progressing through to A levels, black perform, on average, worse than whites. Roughly 1 black for every 14 white. Then there's even lower ratio of blacks to whites at university (1 for every 12), but the percentage getting a 1st is only 14% vs 31%, 44% vs 50% for a 2:1, and 43% vs vs 19% for anything lower. Maybe the education system is racist, but I thought names on exam papers are blanked out to prevent that? Solve the education discrepancy and we may see an improvement in the job market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 https://www.zedbooks.net/blog/posts/england-become-racist/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 50 minutes ago, jono said: Some really good points but I have to disagree about the blank canvass you seem to want to see. For me history has to be visible. It being there isn’t glorification beyond the generation in which it was erected. After personal memory has gone you are left with history for us to learn from. ... See I think the personal memory issue is the very reason all specific person statues should be taken down (I'm all for keeping memorials etc though) With most statues we see them and the good things they did are listed below - We assume a statue has been built for some worthy endeavour - Yet there is no mention of the things they might have done wrong across their lifetimes and / or the things we would find problematic by modern standards - So you end up not learning everything about the person and their reputation becomes unnaturally enhanced If we're going to have statues of historical figures I say there should be a list of their character flaws and unacceptable behaviours - No-one is perfect and that should be showcased rather than (quite literally) putting these people from history on a pedestal Here's a question - Do you think Derby fans are ever going to forget Clough and Taylor? Ever? So do we really need a statue? I think people who need to remember will remember and that history will be passed down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 I suggest people watch this https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qn2gv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 10 hours ago, Andicis said: I mean what about the converse? Why is black players in England way higher than the percentage of black people, is that discrimination against white people? Is that a barrier for whites? (No of course it isn't) I don't think teams in England give a duck as long as they do well, I honestly do not believe it's anything to do about race, they'll employ anyone good enough. I think you are right, thankfully nowadays playing staff seem to be hired on their ability and not on their ethnic background. But management is an entirely different skill set. And whereas potentially excellent footballers are usually easy to spot at a young age, it's harder to know whether a manager or coach will actually make it until they have actually started working. If racism does still exist in the job market in the UK then it's far more likely to manifest itself in footballer manager/coach recruitment than in football player recruitment. The huge disparity in minority numbers playing the game and in management does seem to suggest that there may still be discrimination. It's possible even that any such discrimination is often not deliberate and is instinctive and unintentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 55 minutes ago, cheron85 said: See I think the personal memory issue is the very reason all specific person statues should be taken down (I'm all for keeping memorials etc though) With most statues we see them and the good things they did are listed below - We assume a statue has been built for some worthy endeavour - Yet there is no mention of the things they might have done wrong across their lifetimes and / or the things we would find problematic by modern standards - So you end up not learning everything about the person and their reputation becomes unnaturally enhanced If we're going to have statues of historical figures I say there should be a list of their character flaws and unacceptable behaviours - No-one is perfect and that should be showcased rather than (quite literally) putting these people from history on a pedestal Here's a question - Do you think Derby fans are ever going to forget Clough and Taylor? Ever? So do we really need a statue? I think people who need to remember will remember and that history will be passed down Oh great .. then let’s not bother with books then either. Do you honestly think people are so stupid that they don’t realise every human being has flaws and so they need them all spelt out by whatever political cadre is in charge . ? Incredibly condescending in my book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Curtains said: I suggest people watch this https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qn2gv Why? Shouldn’t this be in the watchable telly thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 12 hours ago, Highgate said: Why is that ironic? The notion that some races are suitable for certain types of work involving physical activity (such as playing football) but not suitable for jobs relying on mental skills (such as coaching or management) has been the underpinning of the racist mindset for centuries now. Where is the irony in what Sterling said? I’m trying to get my head round the idea that every managerial position Alan Pardew got, he got on merit because he was the best applicant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, cheron85 said: See I think the personal memory issue is the very reason all specific person statues should be taken down (I'm all for keeping memorials etc though) With most statues we see them and the good things they did are listed below - We assume a statue has been built for some worthy endeavour - Yet there is no mention of the things they might have done wrong across their lifetimes and / or the things we would find problematic by modern standards - So you end up not learning everything about the person and their reputation becomes unnaturally enhanced If we're going to have statues of historical figures I say there should be a list of their character flaws and unacceptable behaviours - No-one is perfect and that should be showcased rather than (quite literally) putting these people from history on a pedestal Here's a question - Do you think Derby fans are ever going to forget Clough and Taylor? Ever? So do we really need a statue? I think people who need to remember will remember and that history will be passed down Totally bizaare. So, no statues as no one is perfect and we will remember them anyway. Or if not, have a list of bad things they have done on the statue?? Doesn't work for me as an argument related to Clough / Taylor or any other statue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 48 minutes ago, jono said: Oh great .. then let’s not bother with books then either. Do you honestly think people are so stupid that they don’t realise every human being has flaws and so they need them all spelt out by whatever political cadre is in charge . ? Incredibly condescending in my book I don't understand your point... Statues celebrate only a single part (the good part) of a persons achievement - Books have the ability to list out their flaws too and give more detail And yes, I do believe that some people don't know the flaws that many humans have - I'm not going to call them stupid, merely uninformed For instance until recently I wasn't aware of Gandi's opinions on Africa and Einstein's on the Chinese 14 minutes ago, Chester40 said: So, no statues as no one is perfect and we will remember them anyway. Or if not, have a list of bad things they have done on the statue?? Yeh What use or value does a statue actually add to the world? Nothing - Half the time people don't even know who the statue even is - Before this happened (for example) could you name the people who have statues in parliament square and why their statues are there? If you want a celebration of someone's achievement why not have a plaque or a permanent poster with information about the person, what they did, how important they were to society but also the controversial stuff they were into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Just out of interest, after reading the opinions of so many in here for a long time now, can anyone confidently say that they know what racism actually is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, TuffLuff said: Just out of interest, after reading the opinions of so many in here for a long time now, can anyone confidently say that they know what racism actually is? It's when you prefer field athletics to track athletics I believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, cheron85 said: I don't understand your point... Statues celebrate only a single part (the good part) of a persons achievement - Books have the ability to list out their flaws too and give more detail And yes, I do believe that some people don't know the flaws that many humans have - I'm not going to call them stupid, merely uninformed For instance until recently I wasn't aware of Gandi's opinions on Africa and Einstein's on the Chinese Yeh What use or value does a statue actually add to the world? Nothing - Half the time people don't even know who the statue even is - Before this happened (for example) could you name the people who have statues in parliament square and why their statues are there? If you want a celebration of someone's achievement why not have a plaque or a permanent poster with information about the person, what they did, how important they were to society but also the controversial stuff they were into I wouldn't consider myself particularly artsy, but I really disagree with that. What use does any art have? Shall we get rid of paintings of famous people next as they are potentially offensive? My kids saw the Clough / Taylor statue and it served as good prompt to explain why they were seen as important to the club's history. There is no such thing often as good /bad..its perspective. I explained what they meant to me. That's my history. Would the plaque say he fell out with people, tried to blackmail the club/owner, ignored injured players, had some allegations around financial irregularities, seemed to drink too much at times, did terribly at Leeds... Would all/some/most of that be on his plaque? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: It's when you prefer field athletics to track athletics I believe You mean it’s not talking about statues rather than looking to highlight the incredible work of Marcus Rashford over the last 72 hours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, TuffLuff said: Just out of interest, after reading the opinions of so many in here for a long time now, can anyone confidently say that they know what racism actually is? Focusing upon differences as opposed to similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Chester40 said: I wouldn't consider myself particularly artsy, but I really disagree with that. What use does any art have? Shall we get rid of paintings of famous people next as they are potentially offensive? My kids saw the Clough / Taylor statue and it served as good prompt to explain why they were seen as important to the club's history. There is no such thing often as good /bad..its perspective. I explained what they meant to me. That's my history. Would the plaque say he fell out with people, tried to blackmail the club/owner, ignored injured players, had some allegations around financial irregularities, seemed to drink too much at times, did terribly at Leeds... Would all/some/most of that be on his plaque? Statues aren't considered art - They're historical artefacts not art - So more like a book than a painting (that's not my opinion, I just googled it) But even then - Paintings don't survive unless they're artistically worthwhile preserving which is analysed on an ongoing basis - We don't just keep all art because it's art - As we shouldn't need to keep statues just because at some point someone decided to make a statue I really like the little area around the Clough/Taylor statue - and there's plenty of space there IMO to have a more detailed history of their role at the club, what they achieved and yes, the good and bad elements of what they did - More like a memorial - Also, would be a better source of information in the distant future when those of us who remember Clough (if not his time at Derby) aren't around any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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