The Politics Thread 2020

[maxjam]

14 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I actually agree with you on Biden, he is a depressing choice for the Democratic nomination.  There were about12 candidates in the primary race who would have made a better president than Joe in my opinion.  But the Democratic party  feel that Biden had the best chance of beating Trump.  Maybe they are right, I don't know. 

It is ironic that you highlighted Biden's creepiness, given that he is running against probably the creepiest Presidential candidate in living memory in Trump. But you are also correct, Republican voters and Democratic voters (of the progressive variety) may well have completely different reactions to such allegations, and some of those who may have wished to vote against Trump may just sit it out instead.  Not a wise or forgivable move in my opinion, but it may happen.  That's why Biden must, above all else woo Sanders voters in this election campaign. He needs them. 

I agree Biden would generally be better off saying nothing at all, but I don't understand your view that Trump will 'tear him to shreds'.  You seem to be confusing Trump with a competent or logical debater.  Trump will repeat his catchphrase 'Sleepy Joe' and throw repeated insults no doubt and his base will lap it up.  However, anyone who is capable of being impressed by those sort of antics is surely already voting for Trump. He's not going to convince the undecided voter with that nonsense.  And Trump is not going to be able to debate Biden on policy, because that would actually necessitate Trump learning some details regarding Biden's, or indeed his own, policies.  Those debates, however they occur, will be ridiculous and depressing but they won't change many minds, unless one of the candidates says something incredibly stupid.  That's a possibility with both those candidates I suppose.

I would have liked to have seen a Warren, Harris, Brooker, Buttigieg or Sanders have the opportunity to debate Trump and forensically and logically take apart his record and policy.  All far more intelligent people than Trump is and he would only have his witless insults as a retort.  Sadly that's not to be, it's Trump v Biden, sad times indeed.  And yet, it's imperative that Biden wins. 

Nice to agree (by and large) with someone on the forums for a change ? 

It is a truly depressing contest for arguably the most important position on the planet.  There were far better candidates that the Democrats could have chosen but we've ended up with Trump vs Biden. 

We'll have to agree to disagree about what will happen in the forthcoming debates, time will time with that one I guess.  Whatever the outcome it will make for fascinating if excrutiating viewing - and no matter who wins the election, we'll be in a worse place than we are currently.  

[Comrade 86]

11 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

I see Ms Sturgeon and various other leaders use "signers" to relay their info to the hard of hearing.  As these people are often in the background, and therefore a small part of the screen, why not just use subtitles?

I assume you mean close captions? Subtitles need to be written by someone. The reason the former are used is because they offer hard of hearing folk a faster and more accurate relay of what is being said. Also, illiteracy is quite prevalent amongst those born deaf so subtitles are not really a lot of use to them.

[Highgate]

29 minutes ago, Norman said:

Trump is dumb. 

Seems to be a fact on here. I'm not going to argue. 

The leader of the opposition refuses to debate him. 

How ducking dumb must he be? And how dumb must the opposition party be to get into that position. 

Or Trump, although he has sounded dumb this week, isn't that dumb. And he knows how to run an economy without having a war. 

For me, it's not that he is dumb as such.  It's that he is exceptionally ignorant.  He simply does not possess the knowledge that a president should possess and more importantly he seems to be completely unaware of this shortcoming.  He appears to believe he is the greatest intellectual authority on any subject, regardless of how little he knows about it.  There are people like that, of course, we all know them.  But none of them should be the most powerful person on the planet.

What do you mean the leader of the opposition refuses to debate him?  Do you mean Biden?   What debates has he refused to have ?

Yeah, I agree Biden was a bad choice for presidential candidate if that's who you are referring to.

Trump has sounded dumb this week, or unaware of his own ignorance as usual.  He took over an already booming economy, has made the national debt soar, reduced tax intake by enriching the super-wealthy, barely and fortuitously avoided a war with Iran all while trashing the environment without a care in the world it seems.  Incidentally it's very easy for a US president not to have a war, just don't invade anyone...no country is going to attack them. And I wouldn't try telling any Kurds that Trump didn't start any wars. 

 

[Anon]

17 minutes ago, maxjam said:

It is a truly depressing contest for arguably the most important position on the planet.  There were far better candidates that the Democrats could have chosen but we've ended up with Trump vs Biden. 

Were there? Buttigieg seemed to be the best of a weak field, but Warren and Sanders are terrible and I guarantee they'd have performed worse than Biden in a presidential election run.

[Norman]

36 minutes ago, Highgate said:

For me, it's not that he is dumb as such.  It's that he is exceptionally ignorant.  He simply does not possess the knowledge that a president should possess and more importantly he seems to be completely unaware of this shortcoming.  He appears to believe he is the greatest intellectual authority on any subject, regardless of how little he knows about it.  There are people like that, of course, we all know them.  But none of them should be the most powerful person on the planet.

What do you mean the leader of the opposition refuses to debate him?  Do you mean Biden?   What debates has he refused to have ?

Yeah, I agree Biden was a bad choice for presidential candidate if that's who you are referring to.

Trump has sounded dumb this week, or unaware of his own ignorance as usual.  He took over an already booming economy, has made the national debt soar, reduced tax intake by enriching the super-wealthy, barely and fortuitously avoided a war with Iran all while trashing the environment without a care in the world it seems.  Incidentally it's very easy for a US president not to have a war, just don't invade anyone...no country is going to attack them. And I wouldn't try telling any Kurds that Trump didn't start any wars. 

 

As President, has Trump started a war? No. 

Which president hasn't increased national debt? 

Was the economy doing well inder Trump before this crisis? 

Biden has refused to debate Sanders and now refuses to debate Trump. His silence says it all. The bloke is riddled with a funny fascination with smelling young girls and dementia. No wonder he is so quiet. 

Was Trump ignorant this week? Yes. 

Has anyone died from his comments? Only one. A Clinton activist who appears to have killed her husband to blame Trump. 

Conclusion. America is ducked. 

[Highgate]

23 minutes ago, Anon said:

Were there? Buttigieg seemed to be the best of a weak field, but Warren and Sanders are terrible and I guarantee they'd have performed worse than Biden in a presidential election run.

Terrible because they are too far left ?   Maybe they are perceived to be too far to the left to win an American Presidential Election, that's a reasonable point, but they are both established, intelligent and capable politicians.  Sanders has been the voice consistent and determined voice for the under-privileged for more than half a century, ever since he marched with MLK in the Civil Rights movement to the present day.  He is the antithesis of Trump, and he deserves respect.  Both Sanders and Warren's polices are all quite popular with the electorate ...taken individually.

Yeah pretty much anyone of the Grand National style Democratic primary field would make a better president than Biden in my opinion.  Bar, Williamson, who was unsuitable I think. Even Bloomberg, whose campaign I disliked a lot, is very strong on the environment, so he had his merits too.  Apart from those mentioned above Yang, Castro, Brooker, Klobuchar and Harris were all good candidates.

Of course that's who would make a better president than Biden, which one of those was more likely to defeat Trump and become president....that's really hard to tell. Biden seemed more popular in the polls...but you have to factor in the campaign he's going to lead, which will almost certainly be uninspiring at best. 

[TramRam]

1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

 

I concede that if Biden is as hopeless and you seem to want to portray, then Trump may win by default though the democrats' secret weapon may be Michelle Obama who would absolutely destroy Trump, hands down.

 

British politics is getting to be altho at the very ealier stages like the USA, Money, Advertising, Policys that are off the Richter Scale, Personalities, Dirty tricks and more.

Michelle Obama as a running mate for Biden will unite the Democrats like Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders could never do...imo, But, With a husband as an ex President who's pulling her strings advising her, I know little of her Political carreer from her being a polititian if any, The point I'm trying to make is American Politics has hit skid row, If all the Democrats can do is bring in the wife of a former President to instill their candidate is a pretty poor show.

 

[Highgate]

18 minutes ago, Norman said:

As President, has Trump started a war? No. 

Only barely, you should consider that too.  And also...dropping the US alliance with the Kurds, after they fought ISIS for years and thereby allowing Turkey to attack them is starting a new war for the Kurds.  Not for the US admittedly. America first I suppose. 

Which president hasn't increased national debt?   Recent presidents all have I would think anyway.  But how many of them made the election promise not to just stop increasing the national debt, not to merely reduce it, but to eliminate it altogether?  How's that working out?

Was the economy doing well inder Trump before this crisis?  Yes by some measures, not so well by others. Certainly people seemed happy with it.  How much credit does a president deserve for the state of the economy that naturally goes in cycles.  I don't know really.  And it is important to remember it was already doing well when he took over.

Biden has refused to debate Sanders and now refuses to debate Trump. His silence says it all. The bloke is riddled with a funny fascination with smelling young girls and dementia. No wonder he is so quiet.   He did refuse some debates with Sanders, but also debated him at length. What debates has he refused with Trump?  I haven't heard of that...are you imagining it?  The Covid-19 crises makes this an exceptionally poor time to be conducting such debates.  But they will happen.   

Yes I agree, Biden is a strange man and is a poor choice for Democratic candidate.

Was Trump ignorant this week? Yes. 

He has cancelled his own daily briefings now apparently.  A major disappointment to Democratic strategists no doubt.

Has anyone died from his comments? Only one. A Clinton activist who appears to have killed her husband to blame Trump.  Well if that was her reasoning she got what she deserved. I'd be surprised if Trump's comments didn't lead to an increase in people hurting themselves with such products or at least wasting health professionals time by inquiring about it.

Conclusion. America is ducked.  Speaking principally from an environmental perspective, it certainly is if Trump is re-elected.  Given the US's continued primacy and power and the fact that national boundaries are of no consequence as far as the environment is concerned, if they are ducked, we are all ducked. 

 

[mozza]

 

I was being sarcastic... 

 

[Uptherams]

Just now, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

From The Daily Mail

NHS doctors are being told they DON'T need to list Covid-19 on death certificates of coronavirus patients, leaked documents reveal

Hospital guidance was obtained by not-for-profit organisation Good Law Project

Tells medics 'pneumonia or community-acquired pneumonia are acceptable'

Says Covid-19 may be mentioned in other areas of form 'should the doctor wish'

Full story here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8227035/NHS-doctors-told-DONT-need-list-Covid-19-death-certificates-coronavirus-patients.html

Can you provide evidence of the 'many doctors' who are being pressured please - ta! No Twatter bots this time or obscure right wing blogs, something vaguely credible.

I'm not going to bother because you and this far left clique have done nothing but talk utter rubbish when it comes to 'sources'. You continually post things from poor sources or when fact checked by their own peers in the media, turn out to be nonsense political shots. 

This is where i sit on the political compass. ?? 

[Bob The Badger]

3 hours ago, Norman said:

The leader of the opposition refuses to debate him. 

There are only two issues with that statement.

1. Biden isn't the leader of the Democratic Party.

2. He hasn't refused to debate him.

Biden hasn't even won the nomination yet. There could be a brokered conference because Bernie will have a lot of delegates. 

And a technical point to add.

Even if he does get it, that doesn't make him the leader of the opposition because there are two, Pelosi in the House and Schumer in the Senate.

The Presidential nominee does not lead the Party they are representing unless they become President - and even then only nominally as the head of the Executive Branch.

You're presuming the system over here is like the UK and it isn't.

As for debating Trump, there are two factors.

1. It's protocol in times of national emergency to (as much as possible) stay in the background as a Presidential nominee - which Biden is doing.

2. Debates NEVER start before October anyway.

Other than that, you nailed it!

And fwiw, like many I think Biden has a serious mental decline problem and it worries me...a lot.

I wonder if the reason he allowed Sanders to keep his delegates is so that there will be a brokered conference and somebody else can step in closer the time.

Having said that, I've not heard that idea floated so maybe it's pie in the sky.

PS. Biden never refused to debate Sanders either. In fact, he debated him several times. It's just that when they got down to just two delegates everything got shut down.

[Comrade 86]

11 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

I'm not going to bother because you and this far left clique have done nothing but talk utter rubbish when it comes to 'sources'. You continually post things from poor sources or when fact checked by their own peers in the media, turn out to be nonsense political shots. 

This is where i sit on the political compass. ?? 

So you have none, just spouting unsubstantiated rubbish yet again. Glad we cleared that up. And doesn't the above make you part of the far left clique yourself. If not, what the point you're making by posting it? ?

[Bob The Badger]

@Highgate - with regard to national debt, you're right, every single President has increased it.

HOWEVER, Trump campaigned on reducing profligate spending and he ridiculed Obama again and again, and yes, again for overspending on things like welfare and the environment. 

Not really surprising for the Hypocrite in Chief. He also ridiculed him for playing too much golf, famously saying, 'if I were President I wouldn't have time to play golf'.

Around the end of his second year he'd spent more time on the golf course than Obama did in two terms.

[Comrade 86]

2 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I am beginning to suspect some politics at work behind the scenes

i know that hospitals have declined to take elderly patients with suspected covid19 from care homes

This would potentially reduce the stats of coved 19 related deaths in hospital

Outbreaks in care homes seem to be kept hush hush.

there is talk of preparations for an end to lockdown and “business as usual”

reducing the stats of deaths would be a good starting tactic. 

 

You're not alone. Strangely at odds with our learned friend though so I'm going to assume that you too are member of the DCFC commie cabal and ignore your thoughts, despite them making perfect sense.

[Bob The Badger]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Was the economy doing well inder Trump before this crisis? 

Going to take issue with @Highgate here because it was doing well under every measure.

Trump's first three years were remarkably similar to Obama's last 3 years with Obama having the slight edge over everything except the stock market.

Also, you have to take into account that Obama walked into the worst recession since the Great Depression, whereas Trump walked into a strong economy that was trending upward.

The economy was going to collapse with or without the pandemic because it was artificially hiked by Trump.

He did two things to avoid it taking it's *natural* course.

Normally in a booming economy you have to raise interest rates to stop it overheating and inflation running rampant, but Trump was constantly pushing the Fed to lower rates even musing on Twitter whether he should fire the head.

The Federal Reserve, like the Bank of England, is mean to be independent, but Trump doesn't care for things like that.

So we had crazy low interest rates in a booming economy, something that is almost unprecedented. 

Then (or rather before to be accurate) he gave huge corporate tax breaks out under the guise of reducing the tax debt on individuals and families.

He did do that latter, but something like 90% of the benefit went to the wealthy and big corporations. You know, the people and businesses who vote and give money to  the Republican Party.

By doing this he exploded the national debt, something he said he'd not do and something that is anathema to old school conservatives.

[GboroRam]

28 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

 

Serious question. Maybe more for others. Anyone who says Labour are too left wing. 

Where on the graph do you see the modern day tories? 

Where is Corbyn's Labour? 

Where should Labour aim to be? 

[TramRam]

14 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

@Highgate - with regard to national debt, you're right, every single President has increased it.

HOWEVER, Trump campaigned on reducing profligate spending and he ridiculed Obama again and again, and yes, again for overspending on things like welfare and the environment. 

Not really surprising for the Hypocrite in Chief. He also ridiculed him for playing too much golf, famously saying, 'if I were President I wouldn't have time to play golf'.

Around the end of his second year he'd spent more time on the golf course than Obama did in two terms.

A question for you Bob, Our press, Journalists, News media ie TV, Will go for a headline grabbing news article, Whether it being a "cut" interview, Or a slight on the truth from a Minister, Or just "fake news" to make our Government look like incapable of coming to terms with Covid-19.

What's your equivalent like?

[i-Ram]

1 minute ago, GboroRam said:

Serious question. Maybe more for others. Anyone who says Labour are too left wing. 

Where on the graph do you see the modern day tories? 

Where is Corbyn's Labour? 

Where should Labour aim to be? 

[Uptherams]

11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Serious question. Maybe more for others. Anyone who says Labour are too left wing. 

Where on the graph do you see the modern day tories? 

Where is Corbyn's Labour? 

Where should Labour aim to be? 

As others have highlighted, the compass is more tuned to a US demographic. As I'm a centrist, tending to lean left on policy but slightly right of centre on implementation and practicality. 

You can plot things wherever you like. It doesn't make a difference to me raining on the far left parade ??

[Gaspode]

17 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Serious question. Maybe more for others. Anyone who says Labour are too left wing. 

Where on the graph do you see the modern day tories? 

Where is Corbyn's Labour? 

Where should Labour aim to be? 

The answer to all these should be in the POLITICS thread ?