brady1993 Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 This is something I've been kind of struggling with lately is that Cocu has been fairly persistent in sticking with a 4231 at least to start games. Personally I think this has been partially what has been contributing to our lack of fluidity with the options we have for the two being too static leading us to be far too flat in midfield. Combine this with a bit of lack of talent for the options for the three in front of the them it leads to this lack of fluidity in midfield causing stagnant, turgid play. The only time it's looked ok was when we stuck Holmes as one of the two as we had a player who could carry the ball and move into space. What I find strange is that a 4231 isn't Cocu's stated preference (it's a 433) and so I think it's likely he concluded that we just don't have the midfielders for a 433 and instead are loaded with defensive midfielders and #10s. Personally I hope we use the January to attempt to address this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiddingsRam Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 35 minutes ago, brady1993 said: This is something I've been kind of struggling with lately is that Cocu has been fairly persistent in sticking with a 4231 at least to start games. Personally I think this has been partially what has been contributing to our lack of fluidity with the options we have for the two being too static leading us to be far too flat in midfield. Combine this with a bit of lack of talent for the options for the three in front of the them it leads to this lack of fluidity in midfield causing stagnant, turgid play. The only time it's looked ok was when we stuck Holmes as one of the two as we had a player who could carry the ball and move into space. What I find strange is that a 4231 isn't Cocu's stated preference (it's a 433) and so I think it's likely he concluded that we just don't have the midfielders for a 433 and instead are loaded with defensive midfielders and #10s. Personally I hope we use the January to attempt to address this. From what I've observed the system is very fluid and not a rigid 4231 or even 433 it seems to change all the time last night it seemed to be Roos Davies. Clarke Bogle. Bielik. Malone Shinnie Holmes Lawrence. Paterson Waghorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I preferred the 46-75 mins last night when we had Waggy playing off Martin. Given our lack of midfield creativity I'd rather we either go wing backs to get 2 up front or 4-4-1-1 with Marriott or Waggy playing off Chrissy M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCG Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Carnero said: I preferred the 46-75 mins last night when we had Waggy playing off Martin. Given our lack of midfield creativity I'd rather we either go wing backs to get 2 up front or 4-4-1-1 with Marriott or Waggy playing off Chrissy M. I didn't like very much of Waggy last night. He was very wasteful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I’ll take someone to get the ball to Chris Martin properly and three others who can read where he is going to lay it off ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Much prefer two up front, forget this false number 9, one sitting behind the other rubbish. Play 2 upfront, get a partnership going. Marriott and Martin up top and fit the rest to that formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 32 minutes ago, TexasRam said: Much prefer two up front, forget this false number 9, one sitting behind the other rubbish. Play 2 upfront, get a partnership going. Marriott and Martin up top and fit the rest to that formation. Scruff of the neck, I like it. but have we the wingers to make that properly effective ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy03 Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 This should be the side: Martin Marriott Lawrence Holmes Shinnie Bielik Lowe Clarke Davies Bogle Roos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Paterson? Do you guys still hold a grudge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Carnero said: I preferred the 46-75 mins last night when we had Waggy playing off Martin. Given our lack of midfield creativity I'd rather we either go wing backs to get 2 up front or 4-4-1-1 with Marriott or Waggy playing off Chrissy M. Crikey didn’t we improve when CM entered the fray. With regard to the original question, I suspect Cocu’s been convinced by Rosenior of the need to go with the trend of 4-2-3-1 et cetera. My personal belief is there is an over-reliance on “systems” and a lack of emphasis on “personnel”. I know it’s a tad trite now but it’s 11 v 11. Systems have given us overly-complex analysis of what is a simple game {I blame Sky and Andy Gray}, VAR {again blame Sky}, empty stadia {note the plural, again Sky’s fault} and utter orlicks like “zonal marking” { probably not Sky’s fault but certainly symptomatic of “analysis by has-been presenters on Sky}. I think Phillip is quite a reserved, cerebral, “thinking” type and perhaps he needs to be more of a “feeling” type to become a better fit for Derby County. And yes...we should play 4-3-3 properly but I doubt we will. We just don’t seem to have that risk-taking mentality. What a pity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 4 hours ago, RiddingsRam said: From what I've observed the system is very fluid and not a rigid 4231 or even 433 it seems to change all the time I think that’s just because the players are wandering around looking lost and not being arsed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 4 hours ago, RiddingsRam said: From what I've observed the system is very fluid and not a rigid 4231 or even 433 it seems to change all the time last night it seemed to be Roos Davies. Clarke Bogle. Bielik. Malone Shinnie Holmes Lawrence. Paterson Waghorn That's true but I think the issue is Shinnie isn't suited for that role of linking play and ends up being too flat with Bielik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbles Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Marriott and Martin, jobs a fish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I thought it was because he loved Huddlestone but needed to give him a pair of legs. Right now I'm not so sure. We have a 5 man midfield that somehow manages to lack width. Maybe he doesn't trust the DM's to protect the back line? He wants to build from the back we know that. What I find odd is it's the most adaptable system in football and ours looks so rigid and narrow all the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 34 minutes ago, IslandExile said: Paterson? Do you guys still hold a grudge? 2 abysmal games in a row now. Time for him to sit out a few games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, Ellafella said: Crikey didn’t we improve when CM entered the fray. With regard to the original question, I suspect Cocu’s been convinced by Rosenior of the need to go with the trend of 4-2-3-1 et cetera. My personal belief is there is an over-reliance on “systems” and a lack of emphasis on “personnel”. I know it’s a tad trite now but it’s 11 v 11. Systems have given us overly-complex analysis of what is a simple game {I blame Sky and Andy Gray}, VAR {again blame Sky}, empty stadia {note the plural, again Sky’s fault} and utter orlicks like “zonal marking” { probably not Sky’s fault but certainly symptomatic of “analysis by has-been presenters on Sky}. I think Phillip is quite a reserved, cerebral, “thinking” type and perhaps he needs to be more of a “feeling” type to become a better fit for Derby County. And yes...we should play 4-3-3 properly but I doubt we will. We just don’t seem to have that risk-taking mentality. What a pity! See I disagree (well maybe not on the sky side of things) and think the opposite often seems to be the case where there is too much focus on an individual players quality and not enough on how they fit in. For example I'd contend we had more quality last season in the squad than we did in 13/14 and yet the side of 13/14 was mikes better. Why ? a better system, with the right players in the roles to deploy it. Eustace was a classic case of being an ordinary player but did exactly the job we needed him to do and complimented the team perfectly. Unfortunately right now I think we are suffering from having just an ok squad but with some glaring weaknesses and a lack of the right personnel to go with any system perfectly well. This is best exemplified by it being difficult to name any two or 3 man midfield that has a good balance to it. (Just as a note when I'm talking system here I don't just mean formation but every thing that goes along with it tactically) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, Alpha said: I thought it was because he loved Huddlestone but needed to give him a pair of legs. Right now I'm not so sure. We have a 5 man midfield that somehow manages to lack width. Maybe he doesn't trust the DM's to protect the back line? He wants to build from the back we know that. What I find odd is it's the most adaptable system in football and ours looks so rigid and narrow all the time! The one idea I keep circling back to is it just down to us having a surplus of DMs, lacking the players for a 3 man midfield with just one sitting but still wanting to try to have control over the middle of the park? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: 2 abysmal games in a row now. Time for him to sit out a few games. No worse than Waghorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 1 hour ago, jono said: Scruff of the neck, I like it. but have we the wingers to make that properly effective ? That would probably be no but it might not matter. Our best wide attacking players are all full backs so pick a system to allow them more freedom to go forwards... Personally I'd say the best way to get 2 up front (And it's probably what I'd be looking at going forwards) would be a 352. It's a bit radical but I'd be tempted to go with: Wisdom Bielik* Buchanan Bogle Shinnie Lowe Holmes Paterson Mariott Martin *Putting Bielik here to have someone who can carry the ball out from the back and spray passes around. If you wanted to squeeze in Davies (which is reasonable) you would put him here instead and either move Bielik right to replace Wisdom or replace Shinnie with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 14 minutes ago, IslandExile said: No worse than Waghorn. And how many feel Waghorn should start the next game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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