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Michael Johnson with England U21s

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Great appointment, awful reason. The "Elite Coach Placement Programme" is a joke.

Whilst he's only achieved limited success as a manager, Chris Powell has performed to a high level in every single coaching position he's had and is one of the most respected people in the game. If the goons at the FA really needed this stupid rule to see that he's a good fit for the English national set up then they should resign, rather than implementing racially discriminatory hiring practices.

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2 hours ago, Anon said:

Great appointment, awful reason. The "Elite Coach Placement Programme" is a joke.

Whilst he's only achieved limited success as a manager, Chris Powell has performed to a high level in every single coaching position he's had and is one of the most respected people in the game. If the goons at the FA really needed this stupid rule to see that he's a good fit for the English national set up then they should resign, rather than implementing racially discriminatory hiring practices.

It is odd how they’ve only recruited BAME coaches to fill these roles to “ensure diversity” and to “better represent the players”. 

The balance definitely seems to be swinging too far the other way. 

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11 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It is odd how they’ve only recruited BAME coaches to fill these roles to “ensure diversity” and to “better represent the players”. 

The balance definitely seems to be swinging too far the other way. 

Too far? How many BAME coaches do you think there are in the system?

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19 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It is odd how they’ve only recruited BAME coaches to fill these roles to “ensure diversity” and to “better represent the players”. 

The balance definitely seems to be swinging too far the other way. 

I don't particularly care about balance. Whoever is best for the position should get the job. I hate the language used surrounding this scheme though. The section you quoted to "better represent the players" is absolutely farcical. So the FA are seemingly under the impression that people need to have the same colour skin as the people they're teaching in order for lessons to sink in?

The people at the FA who implemented this are either racists or cowards, probably both. What the FA are saying essentially is that they as an organisation are so inherently racist that there's no way their recruitment process could ever be fair towards black coaches, so they have to set a definite number of BAME coaching roles to scupper the white identitarians who presumably make up their selection committees.

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19 hours ago, Anon said:

So the FA are seemingly under the impression that people need to have the same colour skin as the people they're teaching in order for lessons to sink in?

There is actually an interesting thing which is that our brains associate by a grouping of people because we're (at our core) sociable animals - If they see an ethnically diverse group the unconscious brain goes "I can fit in there" but if they see an ethnically similar group it might say "I don't fit there" - And there's a definite "us and them" between players and coaches, especially at national level when they don't see each other that often - So it's important that whenever a player arrives for coaching the coach group is ethnically diverse so the simple part of their brain goes "cool, that's a group I can be part of"

There's a really weird element to this which is partly to do with what's hardwired into our brains - We feel inherently more comfortable around people who "look like us" - It's why people feel more comfortable around people who are close relatives - Because you see traits and elements of yourself in there features - There's a load of behavioural economics research which has gone into studying this over the years - The number of people who meet long lost relatives and they "feel like they've know them for years" - It's actually a reaction in the brain which softens feelings/potential annoyances about them because your brain picks out the similarities

Always worth remembering that only 10% of the brain is making rational decisions - 90% works on inherent subconscious reaction

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On 02/09/2019 at 15:47, RoyMac5 said:

Too far? How many BAME coaches do you think there are in the system?

I think he’s saying that they should get their roles on merit rather than a system that borderlines positive discrimination. I’m not saying Michael Johnson doesn’t deserve it, but it shouldn’t take this kind of system to give him the job, they should have been looking at him before. If I was Michael Johnson in that situation I’d tell the FA to Duck off, you didnt approach me before but now you’re approaching me just because I’m black to prove you aren’t racist?  It’s almost an admission they’ve been institutionally racist in the past and trying to score brownie points. If they weren’t they would have approached BAME coaches in the past. 

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16 minutes ago, Sexydadbod said:

I think he’s saying that they should get their roles on merit rather than a system that borderlines positive discrimination. I’m not saying Michael Johnson doesn’t deserve it, but it shouldn’t take this kind of system to give him the job, they should have been looking at him before. If I was Michael Johnson in that situation I’d tell the FA to Duck off, you didnt approach me before but now you’re approaching me just because I’m black to prove you aren’t racist?  It’s almost an admission they’ve been institutionally racist in the past and trying to score brownie points. If they weren’t they would have approached BAME coaches in the past. 

They have been institutionally racist in the past, that's kinda the point. It's because of that that efforts like this are necessary to try and change things.

And no BAME coach is going to tell them to duck off, because it's an opportunity to prove yourself at a high(er) level of coaching - an opportunity they've never/rarely had a chance of being given.
It isn't about the organisation they're working for, it's about their personal careers and the careers of other BAME coaches in the future. If they told every organisation within a previously/currently institutionally racist industry (football) to duck off because they previously wouldn't have been offered positions, they'd never get anything. 

It's also not like they've been handed positions other people could have. These positions have been created to provide the opportunity, and to increase representation, to try and build a foundation and eat away at the status quo that's been created by the long-existent unconscious bias.

Edited by SaintRam

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I am all for inclusion and diversity, but positive discrimination is still discrimination. It is , as previously mentioned, papering over the cracks in the recruiting procedures. 

The BAME population ( in question ) is roughly 5%. Managers or coaches  do not have to have played at the highest level to be good at their job, so allowing for some natural progression from playing, a figure of approx 10% has been mooted  

You could argue though that BAME players are hugely over represented, due to the opportunities afforded by genetical advantages in youth.  

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24 minutes ago, R@M said:

I am all for inclusion and diversity, but positive discrimination is still discrimination. It is , as previously mentioned, papering over the cracks in the recruiting procedures.....

Agreed - I'm pretty sure that a white coach given a role with the FA would be horrified if they thought they'd beaten a black coach to the role purely because of their skin colour, yet that's effectively what the FA are doing by creating these 'BAME only' roles - what next? designated seats on the bus? BAME only doors and toilets at St Georges Park? - seem to remember South Africa having a similar approach and that didn't end well...

I'm delighted for Chris Powell & Johnno and hope they do brilliantly, but I really don't think you beat racism by being racist.....

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51 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

They have been institutionally racist in the past, that's kinda the point. It's because of that that efforts like this are necessary to try and change things.

And no BAME coach is going to tell them to duck off, because it's an opportunity to prove yourself at a high(er) level of coaching - an opportunity they've never/rarely had a chance of being given.
It isn't about the organisation they're working for, it's about their personal careers and the careers of other BAME coaches in the future. If they told every organisation within a previously/currently institutionally racist industry (football) to duck off because they previously wouldn't have been offered positions, they'd never get anything. 

It's also not like they've been handed positions other people could have. These positions have been created to provide the opportunity, and to increase representation, to try and build a foundation and eat away at the status quo that's been created by the long-existent unconscious bias.

They’ve never admitted they’ve been institutionally racist though, they’ve just brushed it under the carpet then are now trying to be PC and to act like the good guys. It’s not genuine, it’s false and caused because they have to, not because they want to.

As someone who is BAME, Positive discrimination isn’t the right way to go about things. It’s a kick in the face. It’s almost saying we aren’t good enough so the only way you will be given an opportunity is through these special programmes because you aren’t otherwise good enough. All we want is equal opportunities, not special treatment or to be treated differently/given preferential treatment  because of the colour of our skin. Take away these pathetic positive discrimination programmes and let people get the jobs because they deserve it.

I feel the same way about women in men’s football like referees or lineswomen. They should be given the job because they are good enough, not just to appease the masses and don’t let them sink if it’s clear they are out of their depth. Ironically these sort of programmes are fuelling racism I’ve personally found- it’s causing people to be more racist and hatred to us as they are saying what have these “censor word” done to deserve more of an opportunity than us? How about we start from scratch and not judge anyone or give anyone special treatment because of their skin colour- treat everyone the same?

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6 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

They have been institutionally racist in the past, that's kinda the point. It's because of that that efforts like this are necessary to try and change things.

And no BAME coach is going to tell them to duck off, because it's an opportunity to prove yourself at a high(er) level of coaching - an opportunity they've never/rarely had a chance of being given.
It isn't about the organisation they're working for, it's about their personal careers and the careers of other BAME coaches in the future. If they told every organisation within a previously/currently institutionally racist industry (football) to duck off because they previously wouldn't have been offered positions, they'd never get anything. 

It's also not like they've been handed positions other people could have. These positions have been created to provide the opportunity, and to increase representation, to try and build a foundation and eat away at the status quo that's been created by the long-existent unconscious bias.

6 new coaches all given a job because of the colour of their skin. I thought he message we are supposed to send out is the colour of someone's skin shouldn't determine if someone can or cannot get a particular job? I feel the Rooney Rule and other such initiatives are good as they offer equal opportunities. However, this move completely eradicates that equality, swings to the other side, and discriminates against non-BAME coaches.

A report from around 2014 stated a BAME representation of about 3.5% (5% in 2017). This sounds exceptionally low, but the % of qualified coaches was only a fraction above 4%. To me that doesn't indicate BAME coaches are being discriminated against, but people with a BAME background are choosing not to go into coaching.

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