The Politics Thread 2019

[Joe.]

24 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

I know you can't, but VAT affects lower incomes by many more times than someone wealthy, that's why the Tories love indirect tax.

A bloke earning £20K a year buying a new £15K car will be paying 12.5% of his income in VAT.

A bloke earning £150K a year buying a new £50K car will be paying 5.5% of his income in VAT and if he only bought the £15K car, he would be paying 1.7% of his income in VAT.

So person 1 buys a car worth 75% of annual income, and person 2 buys one worth 33% of his income, and you're trying to say it's unfair the first one pays a higher percentage of their income in vat?? You aren't comparing the same thing (plus vat is a flat rate)

[AdamRam]

Just now, GboroRam said:

I trust Corbyn more than any leader in my lifetime. I come from a small mining village which had its heart ripped out by the tories in the 80s, so I learned quickly what anti worker politics does. 

I lived in a time that was impacted and still is by terrorism, as one of his own party implied today, the man is a threat to national security, so why would I want to vote for someone like that ?

[Angry Ram]

29 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

I know you can't, but VAT affects lower incomes by many more times than someone wealthy, that's why the Tories love indirect tax.

A bloke earning £20K a year buying a new £15K car will be paying 12.5% of his income in VAT.

A bloke earning £150K a year buying a new £50K car will be paying 5.5% of his income in VAT and if he only bought the £15K car, he would be paying 1.7% of his income in VAT.

Do you want me to buy you a car?

[Grumpy Git]

6 minutes ago, Joe. said:

So person 1 buys a car worth 75% of annual income, and person 2 buys one worth 33% of his income, and you're trying to say it's unfair the first one pays a higher percentage of their income in vat?? You aren't comparing the same thing (plus vat is a flat rate)

OK compare it when they buy the same car. Or alternatively ask yourself what sort of new car the lower paid bloke gets for his 33%? have you ever tried to buy a new Fiesta for £7K?

 

I am slowly beginning to understand the Tory mindset through having this conversation, they just don't get what its like not to have two pennies to rub together.

Maybe I'm old school as my parents were brought-up during WW2. My mum and her sisters lost their dad before they were all teenagers and their mum got nothing from the state to support her, she just had to work all the hours god sent to put food on the table.

[jono]

9 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Yeah....me too.  I think anyone would have been more of a purist than Stalin, who was an inhuman monster.  It's certainly easier to talk specifically about Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism or whatever rather than just 'communism', as there are so many different versions and interpretations of what communism was and is.  And it's often seen as the spectre on the left, equal in magnitude and malevolence to it's Fascist/Nazi counterpart on the right.  But a misleading and simplistic viewpoint in my opinion.  Now if they talked about Stalinism as the counterpoint to Nazism instead....then that would be more accurate.

 

To be frank, I am with you in terms of a mixed, but sensibly regulated economy. Of course there are degrees in the mix and regulation which strike me as where we should be having our debate. Monolithic ideology driven systems don’t work. 

[uttoxram75]

2 hours ago, AdamRam said:

As long as you don’t have to pay anything extra then ?

A lot of us have had to pay extra for privatised public services, inflated rail and bus costs, often for a poorer service. Many have had their already poverty level disability money slashed to fund corporate tax cuts. Increased VAT which hits the poorest hardest, social care for the elderly slashed, hard up parents being asked to fund activities at over crowded schools due to the draconian budget cuts that have funded the tax cuts for the wealthy....

No matter how much I try to understand others point of view I keep coming back to the same conclusion, why is it ok to take money off the least well off and the "Jams" yet some are outraged if its suggested the ones who CAN afford a bit more  pay up?. Couple that with the financial trickery that allows the big corps to avoid paying tax in the countries where they operate I feel so sad that so many people are happy to rush headlong into the race to the bottom.

It doesn't have to be like that, it really doesn't. We could build a strong, fair country from the bottom up. Investing in local communities, raising peoples sense of belonging, empowering others to work together, move towards a cleaner, greener, modern economy, give people a bit more leisure time, family time, time to help care for their grandchildren, children and elderly parents.

People need hope that the people at the top do have a smidgeon of humanity and empathy for their fellow travellers on this very short time we exist, not the dread and despair of poverty if you fall ill or lose your job.

 

[uttoxram75]

11 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

I lived in a time that was impacted and still is by terrorism, as one of his own party implied today, the man is a threat to national security, so why would I want to vote for someone like that ?

So if it was a labour leader untarnished by being called a terrorist sympathiser you'd vote for the policies? Genuinely interested in your comment, is it Labour policy you dislike or Corbyn?

I would hazard a guess you'd never vote Labour under any circumstances so the current leader is not really an issue?

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

But you think it's fair to tax people more with lower incomes, but think you're not wealthy? 

Or are you arguing that this country isn't wealthy enough to afford a better health system?

Out of interest, how would a fiver a week extra income tax affect your daily life? 

Serious question.. Do you spend 100% of your household budget each month? Or do you tell the wife, she can’t have that new dress u till you have put a bit away for it and then buy it?

[AdamRam]

6 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

A lot of us have had to pay extra for privatised public services, inflated rail and bus costs, often for a poorer service. Many have had their already poverty level disability money slashed to fund corporate tax cuts. Increased VAT which hits the poorest hardest, social care for the elderly slashed, hard up parents being asked to fund activities at over crowded schools due to the draconian budget cuts that have funded the tax cuts for the wealthy....

No matter how much I try to understand others point of view I keep coming back to the same conclusion, why is it ok to take money off the least well off and the "Jams" yet some are outraged if its suggested the ones who CAN afford a bit more  pay up?. Couple that with the financial trickery that allows the big corps to avoid paying tax in the countries where they operate I feel so sad that so many people are happy to rush headlong into the race to the bottom.

It doesn't have to be like that, it really doesn't. We could build a strong, fair country from the bottom up. Investing in local communities, raising peoples sense of belonging, empowering others to work together, move towards a cleaner, greener, modern economy, give people a bit more leisure time, family time, time to help care for their grandchildren, children and elderly parents.

People need hope that the people at the top do have a smidgeon of humanity and empathy for their fellow travellers on this very short time we exist, not the dread and despair of poverty if you fall ill or lose your job.

 

Who is outraged ? Sorry I’m failing to see what your point is, in regard to my post ?

[Angry Ram]

Just now, uttoxram75 said:

So if it was a labour leader untarnished by being called a terrorist sympathiser you'd vote for the policies? Genuinely interested in your comment, is it Labour policy you dislike or Corbyn?

I would hazard a guess you'd never vote Labour under any circumstances so the current leader is not really an issue?

I think you underestimate how many of us so called far right voters, have voted Labour in the past..   I have and I ha e just been labelled a Tory lover.. When does the penny drop that Corbyn has too much baggage for the general electorate..The Labour Party have wasted another 5 year..   Bring on the self pity. 

[Gritstone Ram]

21 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

OK compare it when they buy the same car. Or alternatively ask yourself what sort of new car the lower paid bloke gets for his 33%? have you ever tried to buy a new Fiesta for £7K?

 

I am slowly beginning to understand the Tory mindset through having this conversation, they just don't get what its like not to have two pennies to rub together.

Maybe I'm old school as my parents were brought-up during WW2. My mum and her sisters lost their dad before they were all teenagers and their mum got nothing from the state to support her, she just had to work all the hours god sent to put food on the table.

I was told previously that my mum grew up under socialist governments around that time.

Work that one out.

[AdamRam]

6 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

So if it was a labour leader untarnished by being called a terrorist sympathiser you'd vote for the policies? Genuinely interested in your comment, is it Labour policy you dislike or Corbyn?

I would hazard a guess you'd never vote Labour under any circumstances so the current leader is not really an issue?

Both to be honest, I sit in a higher tax band and feel it is unfair to only target the top 5% to fund their manifesto. I agree with some of their policies, and had they said it would be paid for by anyone earning over 30k for example then I wouldn’t have had a problem.

I voted to remain, still believe the country would be better off staying in the EU however don’t like their policy which in effect completely ignores the public vote.

This is probably the one election I may have switched, however the above and the leader swing it for me. 

[Gritstone Ram]

15 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

I think you underestimate how many of us so called far right voters, have voted Labour in the past..   I have and I ha e just been labelled a Tory lover.. When does the penny drop that Corbyn has too much baggage for the general electorate..The Labour Party have wasted another 5 year..   Bring on the self pity. 

Omg you didn’t vote for Tory Blair did you?

[Grumpy Git]

13 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

I was told previously that my mum grew up under socialist governments around that time.

Work that one out.

It was during the war, the new landslide Labour government elected immediately after brought-in the welfare state and founded the NHS.

Does anyone seriously think we'd have either the minimum wage or the NHS if the Labour party had never been elected?

Some people on here need to give their heads a serious wobble.

[jono]

5 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

Omg you didn’t vote for Tory Blair did you?

Well if he did it’s the gulag for him. 

[Gritstone Ram]

7 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

It was during the war, the new landslide Labour government elected immediately after brought-in the welfare state and founded the NHS.

Does anyone seriously think we'd have either the minimum wage or the NHS if the Labour party had never been elected?

Some people on here need to give their heads a serious wobble.

You can only guess but I believe the NHS was coming either way what version you would get I don’t know but since the war how many years have labour been in government if you take out the Tory Blair years which you are all in denial of being Labour?

[Grumpy Git]

8 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

You can only guess but I believe the NHS was coming either way

You seriously believe this?

Also ask yourself why every Conservative MP in opposition voted AGAINST the minimum wage?

We're doomed Captain.

[Gritstone Ram]

3 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said:

You seriously believe this?

Also ask yourself why every Conservative MP in opposition voted AGAINST the minimum wage?

We're doomed Captain.

Who brought the minimum wage in Tory Blair? Are you lot recognising him now as Labour?

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

Serious question.. Do you spend 100% of your household budget each month? Or do you tell the wife, she can’t have that new dress u till you have put a bit away for it and then buy it?

Not sure I understand where you're going with this.. Some months I spend less, some months more. 

Most people paid less than me will find it harder to put some aside every month. 

Some people paid more than me will blow the lot. 

But the guy on minimum wage is going to find a 5% extra tax far more painful than the guy on 80k+. 

[Gritstone Ram]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Not sure I understand where you're going with this.. Some months I spend less, some months more. 

Most people paid less than me will find it harder to put some aside every month. 

Some people paid more than me will blow the lot. 

But the guy on minimum wage is going to find a 5% extra tax far more painful than the guy on 80k+. 

You cut your cloth to suit. Also it depends how you are happy living your life. I like to have enough put aside for a rainy day and save up for holidays etc. Others I know tell me they are always skint and owe money but turn up with a new tattoo and latest iPhone designer clothes etc.