Death Penalty

[froggg]

20 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

It is a tough one to call really.

I look at it this way. Whether he can or can't be rehabilitated, chances are he will be out in 30 - 40 years (maybe earlier with good behaviour) Sadly this little girl who did nothing wrong other than being in the right place at the wrong time will NEVER get to see the world again let alone in 25 years +.

So I feel why should he have the right to do so?

Unfortunately I do not make the rules and those who do will decide his future - probably with a new identity and a house and benefits etc.

That is if the common criminals who are in for actually stealing a bottle of booze don't get to him before hand 

He will be rule 43, and segregated from the other prisoners.

[Stive Pesley]

15 hours ago, Paul71 said:

I can't argue with anything you have said, I know you are right and others on here who have posted.

I just get so angry when something like this happens.

That's it in a nutshell - we're all (reasonably) sane, law-abiding citizens, so it's almost impossible for us to process the monstrousness of his crime.

For some the way to deal with it is to simply start talking about the death penalty and for others the way to process it is to start to consider the alternatives. Both reactions are natural and we're all different. I'm fervently against capital punishment in all situations, but I recognise there is little value in arguing about it in the context of a crime like this.

The other interesting part of the story is how the victim's 26 year old father was happy to deal drugs to local children, and had a girlfriend who was also barely more than a child. I suspect some people would argue he deserves the death penalty too

 

[Mostyn6]

I just cannot get my head around what has happened here. What actually drives people to do this stuff? How do these ideas get into people's heads? Especially that of a young lad. Speaking from my own mind, I think at his age, I was fascinated by boobs but more distracted by football and motorbikes and pool and music and being with my mates, and being worried about the step from secondary school to college. I don't even think I'd heard of this kind of stuff, aside of Brady/Hindley.

In terms of his punishment, I have several thoughts. I personally believe you cannot rehabilitate an instinct. If your nature is to do this sort of thing, that's who you are and defines you. You cannot reprogramme nature. You cannot reprogramme homosexuality, which was once considered more illegal than child abuse and murder!! (religion eh!) Monsters are monsters (the killers, not the homosexuals).

IN terms of rehabilitation, Prisons are NOT equipped to actually rehabilitate anything in the UK. Like most things, the cost-cutting has ravaged the amount invested into Prisons and they are not fit for purpose. Ask anyone, from petty thief to violent criminal, who has been inside, and they'll tell you that the environment is more criminal than being on the outside.

It's a sad scenario when the only thing that will satisfy people is this kid getting murdered in prison, I reckon however, he'll be in total segregation, like Mick Philpott, in a cardboard cell, with cardboard furniture, so nobody can kill him and he cannot kill himself.

[BaaLocks]

48 minutes ago, froggg said:

He will be rule 43, and segregated from the other prisoners.

They'll get to him, at some point. Roy Whiting - who killed Sarah Payne - got stabbed last year.

@BathRam72 - I think we've made the point but rehabilitation is possible and examples are out there. Professionals will decide and hopefully get the right conclusion. I have to believe that people can change even if maybe this is one of those cases where life really will mean life. You are right that there will be so many other lives that will be destroyed (the parents on all sides for example) but life without opportunity for parole cannot be the way to go. To bring it whole circle, the prisoner who stabbed Roy Whiting is inside without opportunity for parole - his response after the event was that he is above the law now, what is there to be afraid of when you know that no matter what you do you will never be released.

[Stive Pesley]

14 minutes ago, Moist One said:

I just cannot get my head around what has happened here. What actually drives people to do this stuff? How do these ideas get into people's heads? Especially that of a young lad.

That surprises me a little bit, as the article says he suffers with anxiety and depression and has been self-harming. He's also drinking a lot of alcohol and smoking cannabis. On top of that he lives in a fairly isolated island community. You know about the black dog of depression as well as anyone - so while I abhor what he did - I can see that this is not necessarily some cold-blooded act carried out by a sober calculated psychopath. He is clearly deeply messed up and his mind has taken him to a place that no mind ever should. Based on what's been reported, this sounds like he's had a horrible and tragic psychotic episode

Mrs Pesley works in the wilds of North Derbyshire with young people suffering with psychosis, and there is hard evidence that treating people with therapy and anti-psychotic meds from the first episode has a massive success rate in terms of preventing further episodes. Left untreated people just spiral into a lifetime of continuing psychosis and being institutionalised.

FWIW she says the main drivers of psychosis in young are family instability, remote locations/feeling isolated, alcohol and especially the mad strong cannabis that's around these days. Granted she's never had anyone that has killled a child as a result but there have been some pretty horrendous stories.

So I don't know - this may all be wide of the mark - we may or may not find out, but it should be pretty obvious to the MH professionals in the prison system whether he is an untreatable psychopath or a psychotic/schizophrenic youngster than  can be treated.

I hope if he can be helped then he gets that help. 

[McRamFan]

27 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

They'll get to him, at some point. Roy Whiting - who killed Sarah Payne - got stabbed last year.

Due to his age, and the horendous nature of the crime, he will be treated as 'Not of Normal Criminal Element', he will bearly meet another inmate, and if he does, they will have special resrictions in place too.

Roy Whiting is in gen pop, and has been assaulted three times; 02, 11 and 18.

[Mostyn6]

13 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Due to his age, and the horendous nature of the crime, he will be treated as 'Not Of Normal Criminal Element', he will bearly meet another inmate, and if he does, they will have special resrictions in place too.

Roy Whiting is in gen pop, and has been assaulted three times; 02, 11 and 18.

for anyone who didn't know, that's the acronym origin of the now very popular insult dished around twitter.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Moist One said:

for anyone who didn't know, that's the acronym origin of the now very popular insult dished around twitter.

Thank you - I did not know that.

A bit like calling someone a berk, seems harmless till you realise it was orginally cockney rhyming slang for Berkshire Hunt.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

Due to his age, and the horendous nature of the crime, he will be treated as 'Not of Normal Criminal Element', he will bearly meet another inmate, and if he does, they will have special resrictions in place too.

Roy Whiting is in gen pop, and has been assaulted three times; 02, 11 and 18.

Without going off thread - aren't the two crimes pretty similar? Therefore, when he reaches the same age as Roy Whiting then Aaron Campbell will likely get put in 'gen pop' as well? I'm no prison expert but it does seem strange that Roy Whiting would be unsegregated.

Also, just for the context of the discussion - Roy Whiting is due for consideration for parole when he is 82, having served 40 years in jail.

[bigbadbob]

13 hours ago, froggg said:

He will be rule 43, and segregated from the other prisoners.

Where there's a will there's a way

[McRamFan]

22 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

Without going off thread - aren't the two crimes pretty similar? Therefore, when he reaches the same age as Roy Whiting then Aaron Campbell will likely get put in 'gen pop' as well? I'm no prison expert but it does seem strange that Roy Whiting would be unsegregated.

Also, just for the context of the discussion - Roy Whiting is due for consideration for parole when he is 82, having served 40 years in jail.

Almost 20 years has past since Sarah's abduction and murder.  Laws have been changed, modifications to sentenacing etc.  This case, it was abduction, torture (117 serious injuries inflicted) and rape, that he has been convicted of.

[eddie]

The death penalty is, in my opinion, state-sponsored barbarism - and mistakes can never be rectified.

[Archied]

On 23/02/2019 at 06:58, BaaLocks said:

To the original point, we must anchor our justice principles around an unending belief that individuals can be rehabilitated. I totally get that what this individual had done is horrific and he should, absolutely, pay for his crimes. But he could do forty years inside and still only be 56. It's a really difficult one but come that time the poor, poor girls parents may well no longer be here and I can't see what good would come from keeping him looked up eternally if (and it is a huge if) he has been able to demonstrate true, lasting remorse. I'm not saying we plan to release, just that it should always remain an option for our justice system to be grounds around rehabilitation rather than irreversible punishment.

As a footnote, RIP Alesha and my prayers that her parents can, at some point in the future, find healing through time.

Whilst in the the main your rehabilitation point is spot on there are some crimes and criminals that you just cannot apply it to , just for the minute forget about the punishment issue and consider also the state and the justice systems responsoblity to keep society as safe an environment as possible for all , 

we can research as much as want into serial killers , sex killers , child killers and other horrific criminals until the cows come home but the truth is they are so mentally and emotionally beyond our understanding that we can never ever take the chance on some psycho analists belief that they will never repeat the crime and release them as being rehabilitated, never 

we as a society must protect children and people from that risk and also protect the criminal from ever being in the position to repeat the crime 

so people of this criminal severity should never be released but not just from a punishment point of view

[AmericanRam]

 I think that a lot of people look at the use of the death penalty based on some factors.  For example some people will take into account the circumstances of the crime, the degree of violence in the crime, the continued threat the person poses to humanity even within a life without parole situation, and perhaps the need to protect society.

In addition, there is the idea of deterrence which means that when criminals see other criminals severely punished, they are less likely to commit the same crime.Not really works as well as it should.

I am for the death penalty, but do not believe it needs to be used in all circumstances, particularly in circumstances during which the accused struggles with a defiency in their mental capacity.

[BaaLocks]

On 02/03/2019 at 14:25, Archied said:

Whilst in the the main your rehabilitation point is spot on there are some crimes and criminals that you just cannot apply it to , just for the minute forget about the punishment issue and consider also the state and the justice systems responsoblity to keep society as safe an environment as possible for all , 

we can research as much as want into serial killers , sex killers , child killers and other horrific criminals until the cows come home but the truth is they are so mentally and emotionally beyond our understanding that we can never ever take the chance on some psycho analists belief that they will never repeat the crime and release them as being rehabilitated, never 

we as a society must protect children and people from that risk and also protect the criminal from ever being in the position to repeat the crime 

so people of this criminal severity should never be released but not just from a punishment point of view

I get your point, really I do. I was right with you up to the last sentence - while I do understand that the minds of these types of people are things that even the most qualified cannot always understand I also do believe that people can reform themselves. Not all the time, maybe not even in the majority of times, certainly to be evaluated with caution and always with the primary interest being that of the general public and the greater good. But we can't just say 'people of this criminal severity should never be released' - imho.

[Stive Pesley]

On 02/03/2019 at 13:25, Archied said:

we can research as much as want into serial killers , sex killers , child killers and other horrific criminals until the cows come home but the truth is they are so mentally and emotionally beyond our understanding that we can never ever take the chance on some psycho analists belief that they will never repeat the crime and release them as being rehabilitated, never

Have you had enough of experts? ?

[Archied]

On 04/03/2019 at 12:01, StivePesley said:

Have you had enough of experts? ?

No not really Steve it’s just that having spent time working in prison rehab programmes as an addictions councillor and seeing how decisions are made on prisoners rehabilitation status and criteria used to make these judgements and often how disengaged from reality the people who make these decisions often are I just don’t believe it’s right to take the gamble with criminals of the severity we are talking about ,,, I know that I could not possibly make the decision to release someone that has already committed horrific irreversible crimes and damage to society and I believe it takes a pretty high level of arrogance to believe you are able to make that call 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

 I know that I could not possibly make the decision to release someone that has already committed horrific irreversible crimes and damage to society and I believe it takes a pretty high level of arrogance to believe you are able to make that call 

I largely agree - and that's why so few of these people ever get released (and probably one of the reasons why whole life tarriffs were introduced - to save anyone having to make those decisions).

I have nothing else to say beyond my original comment.

 

[jono]

I think most of us get that knee jerk reaction when some horror has been committed, but I think the knee jerk is an instinctive reaction. Is it right that we act in fury ? I don't think so.

I feel that with so many violent criminals that their internal wiring is so askew that they couldn't in all honesty be called sane, no matter how rational they seen to an "expert"

Fundamentally I am not comfortable with society executing someone. Then add in the possibility of error or a genuinely held motive that isn't quite enough as a defence and the picture gets grey. I am against it morally and will always be but we don't seem to have found an alternative that offers solace to the victims, rehabilitation, or just anything to sate the desire for justifiable revenge. 

I haven't got an answer but I am trying to imagine with Social media ravings and viral posting what it would be like if we brought it back ? I could see it being almost a return to public executions where people turned up to be entertained. Not for me

 

 

[Anag Ram]

Why don’t we put it to a public vote?

Nothing can go wrong with a public vote.

?