Uptherams Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 12 hours ago, David said: How many seasons do you keep speculating for if it doesn’t pay off? We spent more in transfer fees than Wolves have this season back in 15/16, we didn’t have a Mendes though. Another West Midlands side Villa, £80m isn’t it now over 2 seasons, one place above us in the table. It’s not how much you spend, it’s how you spend it. And that's just the beginning of the story too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSD Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 As echoed by a few members, MM's comments at the recent fan forum about fan's not having patience if they bought through academy players were wrong. I'd rather we took a chance on a young lad for a season than splash more cash on utter average tripe like our recruitment team have done the last 4 years. Our fans always give young players encouragement, there's nothing that gives them more pride than seeing one of our own on that pitch performing well. Speaking to another fan in the pub yesterday, he thought bringing through academy lads that we'd end up in Forest's situation of bringing through too many players in one go. Problem Forest have is they've got no quality individuals who can help them to improve and learn from. Here we've got Davies, Keogh, Carson, Huddlestone, Vydra. Quality players who can balance out the squad. If Gary trims out the rubbish overpaid players, brings in 4-5 and a couple of young lads make 20+ appearances that'd be a great summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 12 hours ago, David said: How many seasons do you keep speculating for if it doesn’t pay off? We spent more in transfer fees than Wolves have this season back in 15/16, we didn’t have a Mendes though. Another West Midlands side Villa, £80m isn’t it now over 2 seasons, one place above us in the table. It’s not how much you spend, it’s how you spend it. Spot on - Mendes is key. Wolves had money to burn AND Mendes and that's a pretty potent mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 12 hours ago, ilkleyram said: I wouldn't disagree with your general sentiments Enigma and the 'scattergun' approach is down in part to a succession of short term managerial appointments. But the bit about Butterfield and Johnson is not fair. We lost Bryson and Hughes suddenly to long term injuries in a season where the expectation was promotion. After only a few games the general view was that Johnson was a steal at whatever price we paid; Butterfield came with a good reputation and at times played well. Had we not bought replacements then the accusation would have been that we had given up on promotion/had no ambition etc. Whether they are/were good value is a different argument. Notwithstanding any alleged fiduciary issues people knew we were both desperate and wealthy - a recipe for overpayment if ever there was one. Don’t bomb Dawkins out of the building and you’re already 5-7 million up… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 12 hours ago, EnigmaRam said: I'm saying that going out and BUYING players when you already have players still on the books was a bad call. We should have loaned or used academy players. I'm sure there we free transfers also. BUYING them meant we had far too many centre mids on full time contracts. personally I don't think johnsons had that bad a time here. He's scored goals, gives his all and always looks for the positive ball. Butterfield meanwhile, well, I don't want to go there!! ? Butterfield was in player of the season contention for much of 15/16 whilst BJ was the one having shockers. Last season BJ benefited from a change of position whilst Butters struggled further forward. They’ve both had similar impacts in truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyhill60 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, cannable said: Butterfield was in player of the season contention for much of 15/16 whilst BJ was the one having shockers. Last season BJ benefited from a change of position whilst Butters struggled further forward. They’ve both had similar impacts in truth. You are massively overstating Butterfield's contribution 15/16, he was rarely a game changer. Johnson brought some strengths we had been sadly lacking with his physicality, though in the longer term his weakness in other areas became very apparent. That GR rates BJ so highly is for me a red flag about the manager's judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 It's all about having a system, and buying players to suit. You only need to look at Fulham under Jokanovic. I love watching them play, as they're so similar to how we set up under McClaren. Fulham's success comes from establishing a system in place upon Jokanovic's arrival. (I wish he was here, we'd have been promoted by now!). He goes 4-3-3, and brings in players to suit positions. Mitrovic as the centre-forward. Two attacking fullbacks in Taggett and Fredericks. A proper holding midfielder, also a wise, experienced player in McDonald. One linking CM in Stefan Johansen and another attack-minded CM in Tom Cairney. Wide players in Sessegnon and Ayite who can cause problems, come inside, go on the outside. Fulham were crap before Joka took over. Under McClaren we battered them 5-1 and 5-2 in the same season. They were an absolute mess, but since they've targeted players to suit a system and they've done in on a moderate budget (they've actually made a net profit with the sales of Patrick Roberts and Ross McCormack). How can Fulham get it so right but Derby get it so wrong? We had a team which made the playoff final, and made it on a shoe-string budget. How can you then spend £40 million on new players and actually get worse? You don't need a bottomless pit to get out of the Championship, or at the very least be competitive. You just need to know what you're doing. And over the past three seasons, we've been as clueless as that chump Fawaz at Forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Ram Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Liam Rosenior is absolutely bang on the money. Forget the financial spending power and facilities, Derby should be aiming to have an identity and philosophy going through the club. They should have a 'Derby Way' In fact we had it under Clough and McClaren. But then Paul Clement was hired and we spent shed loads of money on players who didn't fit the system. Under Rowett at least his recruitment seems to fit his philosophy. Unfortunately, Rowett's style of football for me is a real turn off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 7 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: It's all about having a system, and buying players to suit. You only need to look at Fulham under Jokanovic. I love watching them play, as they're so similar to how we set up under McClaren. Fulham's success comes from establishing a system in place upon Jokanovic's arrival. (I wish he was here, we'd have been promoted by now!). He goes 4-3-3, and brings in players to suit positions. Mitrovic as the centre-forward. Two attacking fullbacks in Taggett and Fredericks. A proper holding midfielder, also a wise, experienced player in McDonald. One linking CM in Stefan Johansen and another attack-minded CM in Tom Cairney. Wide players in Sessegnon and Ayite who can cause problems, come inside, go on the outside. Fulham were crap before Joka took over. Under McClaren we battered them 5-1 and 5-2 in the same season. They were an absolute mess, but since they've targeted players to suit a system and they've done in on a moderate budget (they've actually made a net profit with the sales of Patrick Roberts and Ross McCormack). How can Fulham get it so right but Derby get it so wrong? We had a team which made the playoff final, and made it on a shoe-string budget. How can you then spend £40 million on new players and actually get worse? You don't need a bottomless pit to get out of the Championship, or at the very least be competitive. You just need to know what you're doing. And over the past three seasons, we've been as clueless as that chump Fawaz at Forest. Exactly.. Just what has our philosophy been sine Morris took over? We've been all over the place, no club vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanRam Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 7 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: It's all about having a system, and buying players to suit. You only need to look at Fulham under Jokanovic. I love watching them play, as they're so similar to how we set up under McClaren. Fulham's success comes from establishing a system in place upon Jokanovic's arrival. (I wish he was here, we'd have been promoted by now!). He goes 4-3-3, and brings in players to suit positions. Mitrovic as the centre-forward. Two attacking fullbacks in Taggett and Fredericks. A proper holding midfielder, also a wise, experienced player in McDonald. One linking CM in Stefan Johansen and another attack-minded CM in Tom Cairney. Wide players in Sessegnon and Ayite who can cause problems, come inside, go on the outside. Fulham were crap before Joka took over. Under McClaren we battered them 5-1 and 5-2 in the same season. They were an absolute mess, but since they've targeted players to suit a system and they've done in on a moderate budget (they've actually made a net profit with the sales of Patrick Roberts and Ross McCormack). How can Fulham get it so right but Derby get it so wrong? We had a team which made the playoff final, and made it on a shoe-string budget. How can you then spend £40 million on new players and actually get worse? You don't need a bottomless pit to get out of the Championship, or at the very least be competitive. You just need to know what you're doing. And over the past three seasons, we've been as clueless as that chump Fawaz at Forest. Excellent post and spot on. The problem Derby have had with the hire and fire policy is we're left with a real mix of players that don't suit any system. It will take time to rebuild, to remove those who no longer suit the system and replace. But I get the sense Rowett knows this and is heading in the right direction. I bloody hope so, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 Assuming we don’t get promoted this season which I think is not clear in anyway as I think we have a chance of top 6 and a chance of promotion . But if we stay down in the Championship then it appears to me that Mel is going to reduce costs and rely on the academy and the managerial ability of Gary Rowett to bring in bargains . IMO less spending on players will lead to a downward spiral Obviously if we don’t sell the likes of Vydra and Keogh etc and keep the majority of the squad then we can have another push next season . I see conflicting information coming out of the club to be honest The dilemma is just that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 It’s certainly a dilemma these days ,,, it’s very rare that clubs go up to prem now without taking big gambles with the clubs finances and risking ffp sanctions ,, seems to me unless you have parachute payments you have to break ffp rules or sail very close to the wind ,, we got quite lucky with some astute clough buys ,, some quality home grown players and loans for mac1 ,,,, the sheer bad luck of injuries that decimated our midfield when we bought Jono and butters can’t be overlooked as a turning point ,,,imagine they hadn’t happened and we had that kind of spend power to kick on in jan window that season ? Yes we may well have wasted some doe but I really think we would have had enough about us to go up ,,,, that’s derby , sheer **** luck and self inflicted wounds have done for us for years ,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Everyone on here has their own opinion of which is the best way. At the end of the day it is all about getting a team together that just gels, is skillful enough to be that little bit better than the opposition, can adapt to different playing styles and stays relatively unscathed in the injury department. Can you buy this team? Yes of course but it can also go the other way. Can you build this team? Again yes but maybe take more time and patience by all involved, but again might not work. The bottom line it will come down to which ever way the owner is more comfortable with. So banging on at each other and telling those who disagree with you that they are wrong or don't know what they are talking about, or saying how long do you keep trying the throwing money or not throwing money at it; is rudimentary. It is going to be done the owners way. We just have to deal with that. Ask yourself this. If we go up with the current squad would we survive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 On 3/28/2018 at 10:19, curtains said: As I see it Carry on reducing the squad size and spending less and not getting promoted in future seasons if we miss out this time and losing gate numbers and gate receipts and fan interest and hope the academy can produce the players for the future and losing gate numbers and gate receipts if they don’t ——————- Interesting article by Mel Morris on difficulties for Championship clubs https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-news-mel-morris-1391981 PS Other option spend your way out of the Championship and reap the Premier League Millions Just get promoted at all costs. Even if you come straight back down again the parachute payments are mega. It is a lot easier to survive a Prem relegation battle - in terms of stringing together some home wins and draws away - than having to go mad and win almost every game in the Champ to get promoted ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said: Just get promoted at all costs. Even if you come straight back down again the parachute payments are mega. It is a lot easier to survive a Prem relegation battle - in terms of stringing together some home wins and draws away - than having to go mad and win almost every game in the Champ to get promoted ....... Unfortunately, it sounds as though "at any costs" increasingly means signing away all your parachute payments to mercenary players and agents (plus wives) to get the players to come in the first place. Haven't noticed clubs getting richer and richer. Burnley still have a shed for a ground but vokes etc are doing alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, HantsRam said: Unfortunately, it sounds as though "at any costs" increasingly means signing away all your parachute payments to mercenary players and agents (plus wives) to get the players to come in the first place. Haven't noticed clubs getting richer and richer. Burnley still have a shed for a ground but vokes etc are doing alright. A recent study did indeed show that the vast majority of the 'wealth' is going on wages and fees. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/01/premier-league-finances-club-by-club Don't know how you halt this now ...... I still think DCFC needs a few years in the Prem though, 10 YEARS now ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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