TuffLuff Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Ram8 said: The Chris Martin ‘saga’ has been (in a footballing context) both a tragedy and a travesty, for the unfortunate player himself, and for the club .. He has had the misfortune to have encountered two managers who failed to appreciate his talents and value to the club, after being the team’s top performer and most essential ’cog’ in a well oiled and primed Steve McLaren team, and this has cost us big time already, and could yet cost us automatic promotion this season .. All the talk about ‘not fitting Gary Rowett’s system and style of play’ does not hold up under rational scrutiny; it comes down to common footballing sense .. aside from his ability to score goals from both long and short range, give him the ball with his back to goal and he will invariably find a man running onto his (first time) pass or ‘flick on’, often leading to a scoring opportunity .. This does not only apply in a PARTICULAR system (either under Pearson or Rowett), but can work wherever a team employs wingers, second strikers or mobile midfielders, as long as they have the footballing intelligence to anticipate what CM can do .. And before anyone says “well he’s had his chances to shine under Pearson / Rowett”, no he hasn’t ! Coming on as a late sub, or starting with a team containing players who have been rigidly and inflexibly schooled to bypass such options does not constitute ‘integrating his skills into the overall team ethic’ .. and on the few occasions he has started, but been judged to have failed to reproduce his form, well what does a manager expect from a player who has been disrespectfully ‘benched’ for months on end .. every player, no matter how good, needs sufficient ‘game time’ to rediscover match fitness, the odd game here and there or substitute appearances do not provide this .. No player has been treated so badly by this club since Billy Davies sidelined Idiakez and Tommy Smith, and brought in distinctly inferior players n their stead .. So, best wishes Chris Martin, and thanks for the memories, I have a feeling that your career may not be anywhere near over for a few seasons yet, but not I fear with the Rams ! , Good post! The Idiakez comparison is a pretty decent one and whilst it’s true we got to the Prem without them, we sure missed them once we got there. IF, and I feel it’s a big if, we do it this season then the matchday squad needs a big enough overhaul as it is, nevermind when you consider the flogging of players currently on loan. It all feels very short term at the moment, like it did with Davies. Personally with Martin and Russell, I just feel he needed to keep them ‘onside’ with his plan. Give them minutes, a few more starts (in Martins case, he shouldn’t have dropped him after starting the two games when we won) and just keep them involved. Fully understand the feeling of getting two players in who have secured promotions in recent seasons, but to me it feels very short term thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, Ram8 said: The Chris Martin ‘saga’ has been (in a footballing context) both a tragedy and a travesty, for the unfortunate player himself, and for the club .. He has had the misfortune to have encountered two managers who failed to appreciate his talents and value to the club, after being the team’s top performer and most essential ’cog’ in a well oiled and primed Steve McLaren team, and this has cost us big time already, and could yet cost us automatic promotion this season .. All the talk about ‘not fitting Gary Rowett’s system and style of play’ does not hold up under rational scrutiny; it comes down to common footballing sense .. aside from his ability to score goals from both long and short range, give him the ball with his back to goal and he will invariably find a man running onto his (first time) pass or ‘flick on’, often leading to a scoring opportunity .. This does not only apply in a PARTICULAR system (either under Pearson or Rowett), but can work wherever a team employs wingers, second strikers or mobile midfielders, as long as they have the footballing intelligence to anticipate what CM can do .. And before anyone says “well he’s had his chances to shine under Pearson / Rowett”, no he hasn’t ! Coming on as a late sub, or starting with a team containing players who have been rigidly and inflexibly schooled to bypass such options does not constitute ‘integrating his skills into the overall team ethic’ .. and on the few occasions he has started, but been judged to have failed to reproduce his form, well what does a manager expect from a player who has been disrespectfully ‘benched’ for months on end .. every player, no matter how good, needs sufficient ‘game time’ to rediscover match fitness, the odd game here and there or substitute appearances do not provide this .. No player has been treated so badly by this club since Billy Davies sidelined Idiakez and Tommy Smith, and brought in distinctly inferior players n their stead .. So, best wishes Chris Martin, and thanks for the memories, I have a feeling that your career may not be anywhere near over for a few seasons yet, but not I fear with the Rams ! , Sorry mate but what a whole lot of tosh ,,, football is a sport where nobody can survive on past glories , they have to do it now and keep doing it, Martin has been a very good player for us and deserves due respect from fans for that but he started the season in the first team, he has trained every day with the first team ,he has had some starts and sub appearances and has not convinced a manager that has got us into second spot and 8 points clear of seventh spot that he is the long term or even short term future striker for the team? Banging on about he needs more game time ,match fitness ,right attitude from other players around him,right system is rubbish ,, he needs to hit the ground running and grab his chances ,it’s a results business and rowett has to produce them and is doing so , seen comments on how rowett has been brave enough to throw forwards on in tight games rather than shore up recently ,well for me it’s no surprise because for all that you can say we have different type strikers ,they all have in common that they are energetic ,pacey defend from the front close down defender pain in the arses to play against who also pull defenders all over the shop and that’s a massive reason why we are so hard to beat or even score against ,, Martin is not that player no matter how he tries ,he does not have those attributes ,, be a great player if he had along with his other stuff but he don’t and that’s that , lets not pretend for one minute that there’s not been many times under Mac when most have wanted to give Martin a good kick up the arse during games where he has switched off , sulked , strolled about ,fallen about like a drunken sailor and moaned constantly at the ref and his own teammates ,,,, give the bloke fair respect for what he’s done at derby but let’s not make him a saint that’s hard done to and misunderstood with no faults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, TuffLuff said: Good post! The Idiakez comparison is a pretty decent one and whilst it’s true we got to the Prem without them, we sure missed them once we got there. IF, and I feel it’s a big if, we do it this season then the matchday squad needs a big enough overhaul as it is, nevermind when you consider the flogging of players currently on loan. It all feels very short term at the moment, like it did with Davies. Personally with Martin and Russell, I just feel he needed to keep them ‘onside’ with his plan. Give them minutes, a few more starts (in Martins case, he shouldn’t have dropped him after starting the two games when we won) and just keep them involved. Fully understand the feeling of getting two players in who have secured promotions in recent seasons, but to me it feels very short term thinking Erm sure missed them once we got there? They couldn’t get us up but would have been top notch if we only kept them and would have been way better at a higher level ,,jeez it’s so easy to flippantly state that like it’s a known fact ,,,, short term long term schlong term ,my backside ,,,, you need players who can do the job now at whatever level you are at ,,,, it really is that simple ,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie20 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, ViewsFromTheMiddle said: Why the angry face @Wolfie20? Didn't mean to sound a grump - just read it as yet another veiled dig at a player who has been an excellent signing and done more than most to try and help the Rams achieve that elusive promotion . Yes, his time at Derby (at least for the remainder of this season) is going to be spent at another club but I don't get why some posters need to continue to nibble away with negative comments. On reflection, maybe a sad face would have been more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 hours ago, ViewsFromTheMiddle said: Scored a lot of goals without him playing and 2nd in the league. The way some go on we'd be above Wolves if Rowett was "smart enough to appreciate his talents". Correct!...we may well have done...but I doubt under rowett but probably under mclaren(different story but pretty much interlocked with martins) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 hours ago, Ram8 said: The Chris Martin ‘saga’ has been (in a footballing context) both a tragedy and a travesty, for the unfortunate player himself, and for the club .. He has had the misfortune to have encountered two managers who failed to appreciate his talents and value to the club, after being the team’s top performer and most essential ’cog’ in a well oiled and primed Steve McLaren team, and this has cost us big time already, and could yet cost us automatic promotion this season .. All the talk about ‘not fitting Gary Rowett’s system and style of play’ does not hold up under rational scrutiny; it comes down to common footballing sense .. aside from his ability to score goals from both long and short range, give him the ball with his back to goal and he will invariably find a man running onto his (first time) pass or ‘flick on’, often leading to a scoring opportunity .. This does not only apply in a PARTICULAR system (either under Pearson or Rowett), but can work wherever a team employs wingers, second strikers or mobile midfielders, as long as they have the footballing intelligence to anticipate what CM can do .. And before anyone says “well he’s had his chances to shine under Pearson / Rowett”, no he hasn’t ! Coming on as a late sub, or starting with a team containing players who have been rigidly and inflexibly schooled to bypass such options does not constitute ‘integrating his skills into the overall team ethic’ .. and on the few occasions he has started, but been judged to have failed to reproduce his form, well what does a manager expect from a player who has been disrespectfully ‘benched’ for months on end .. every player, no matter how good, needs sufficient ‘game time’ to rediscover match fitness, the odd game here and there or substitute appearances do not provide this .. No player has been treated so badly by this club since Billy Davies sidelined Idiakez and Tommy Smith, and brought in distinctly inferior players n their stead .. So, best wishes Chris Martin, and thanks for the memories, I have a feeling that your career may not be anywhere near over for a few seasons yet, but not I fear with the Rams ! , Don’t want to keep stoking this argument but have to say this is one of the more eloquent posts I’ve seen on here. Valid argument but the argument’s over now. A very similar post could have been made about Vydra’s treatment last year when he was stuck in a very similar situation. Shame that we haven’t had a manager who could fit them both into a system that got the best out of them because I think our attack would be better than it is now. Rowett’s figured out a way to get the team playing well with runners like Jerome and Nugent, hopefully we don’t regret getting rid of a striker the calibre of Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViewsFromTheMiddle Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: Correct!...we may well have done...but I doubt under rowett but probably under mclaren(different story but pretty much interlocked with martins) Really can't tell if you're still being serious or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 40 minutes ago, archied said: Erm sure missed them once we got there? They couldn’t get us up but would have been top notch if we only kept them and would have been way better at a higher level ,,jeez it’s so easy to flippantly state that like it’s a known fact ,,,, short term long term schlong term ,my backside ,,,, you need players who can do the job now at whatever level you are at ,,,, it really is that simple ,,,, You are missing the point a little here and you seem a little, dare I say, flippant? I don’t think I declared anything as facts, it’s just an opinion. The point is that if you make a team of experienced workhorses it might get you over the line but it takes a lot more to keep you there because you then need to overhaul, do you not agree that would need to happen with our current squad? That first season in the Prem is tough, if you already have a couple of players who have a bit of flair/class/whatever then why not keep them on side rather than having to spend millons on overpriced players? We’ve been there and there’s no guarantee you can get what you want. Long term/short term...I’m not sure what you are getting at. Any form of business needs a strategy doesn’t it? It’s not having a long term plan that let Billy Davies make an absolute mess up the reserves/academy system for a few seasons. And the less about your backside the better. 57 minutes ago, archied said: give the bloke fair respect for what he’s done at derby but let’s not make him a saint that’s hard done to and misunderstood with no faults Haha, no ones making him a saint and no ones suggesting he’s without fault! Just fans giving opinions and quite rightly showing respect to a player who has scored more goals for this club than anyone in recent memory. The ones trying to make him a saint are doing it so they can try and knock him down off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram8 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 In response to Spanish, who posted “I asked the question some time ago, what should GR have done to include CM and would that guarantee a better return than we have achieved so far?” TuffLuff said (about Chris Martin) :- Your question is pretty rhetorical, although if we are looking at this past month? I’d say he would have contributed to the two home games where we dropped points as they were crying out for someone to hold onto the ball upfront and bring others into play. ........ and (in response to my post) :- The Idiakez comparison is a pretty decent one and whilst it’s true we got to the Prem without them, we sure missed them once we got there. IF, and I feel it’s a big if, we do it this season then the matchday squad needs a big enough overhaul as it is, nevermind when you consider the flogging of players currently on loan. It all feels very short term at the moment, like it did with Davies. Personally with Martin and Russell, I just feel he needed to keep them ‘onside’ with his plan. Give them minutes, a few more starts (in Martins case, he shouldn’t have dropped him after starting the two games when we won) and just keep them involved. Fully understand the feeling of getting two players in who have secured promotions in recent seasons, but to me it feels very short term thinking **************************************************************** Yes, I agree TuffLuff; CM would probably have made a significant difference in the home Sheffield Utd. and Bristol City games, and away at Millwall too .. And I would add, how would we fare in the Premiership with a strike force consisting of any two from Nugent, Jerome, Winnall and Vydra (Vydra might ‘cut it’) ? But yes, I’ll drop it now, as it looks like we have what we have, and I’m sure that everyone hopes that it’s enough to get us over the line .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, ViewsFromTheMiddle said: Really can't tell if you're still being serious or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 hours ago, TuffLuff said: Good post! The Idiakez comparison is a pretty decent one and whilst it’s true we got to the Prem without them, we sure missed them once we got there. IF, and I feel it’s a big if, we do it this season then the matchday squad needs a big enough overhaul as it is, nevermind when you consider the flogging of players currently on loan. It all feels very short term at the moment, like it did with Davies. Personally with Martin and Russell, I just feel he needed to keep them ‘onside’ with his plan. Give them minutes, a few more starts (in Martins case, he shouldn’t have dropped him after starting the two games when we won) and just keep them involved. Fully understand the feeling of getting two players in who have secured promotions in recent seasons, but to me it feels very short term thinking Thought he was very unlucky there. From memory only,thought he played very well in that last away game and considered he deserved to keep his place for the upcoming home game. However,as I suspect most thought (for whatever reason), I wasn't particularly surprised when he was dropped. Still,the chapter seems to be closed now,so for me it's just a case of getting fully behind Gary and the lads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Fan Half Biscuit Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Maybe if Chrissie gets more goals than Vyds between now and the end of the season, Gary will have a re-think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 hours ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said: Maybe if Chrissie gets more goals than Vyds between now and the end of the season, Gary will have a re-think. You would have to also factor in if reading concede more than us ,win or lose more games than us ,, after all we constantly hear it’s all about Chris martins hold up play and how he brings others into the game ? Have we learnt nothing? It is about building a team and every player having a role in that team , rowett has a team sitting in second place just now and nailed on for min play off place yet that is negated by him being daft or mistaken enough to not see Chris Martin as his type of striker ? Why we even have fans believing we could very well be in first spot if only he could see Chris Martin is our best striker ,,,, its just as possible that we could be mid table or flirting with relegation if rowett had chosen Martin as his number one striker ,we could be conceding more goals ,scoring less and winning less and we could be playing far worse , a team that’s shipped out ince,Hughes Bryson Martin are sitting second and scoring far more freely than a pullis type team whilst conceding next to nothing goals wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 11 hours ago, TuffLuff said: You are missing the point a little here and you seem a little, dare I say, flippant? I don’t think I declared anything as facts, it’s just an opinion. The point is that if you make a team of experienced workhorses it might get you over the line but it takes a lot more to keep you there because you then need to overhaul, do you not agree that would need to happen with our current squad? That first season in the Prem is tough, if you already have a couple of players who have a bit of flair/class/whatever then why not keep them on side rather than having to spend millons on overpriced players? We’ve been there and there’s no guarantee you can get what you want. Long term/short term...I’m not sure what you are getting at. Any form of business needs a strategy doesn’t it? It’s not having a long term plan that let Billy Davies make an absolute mess up the reserves/academy system for a few seasons. And the less about your backside the better. Haha, no ones making him a saint and no ones suggesting he’s without fault! Just fans giving opinions and quite rightly showing respect to a player who has scored more goals for this club than anyone in recent memory. The ones trying to make him a saint are doing it so they can try and knock him down off it. You stated that we sure missed them ,,,,, seems pretty much a statement of fact to me ? Yes there really needs to be a strategy / plan ,, and rowett is putting that into action now in terms of sending youngsters out on loan to play proper football , get them ready to get into our first team or put them in shop window if they aren’t up to it ,,, billy Davies for whatever reason did not bring in players good enough to cut it in the prem ,in fact he almost stuffed up promotion with the players he brought in ,, long term planning gets you nowhere whatsoever if you never have the right players in place to do the job needed in the now , yes it’s that simple seems to me more the case that some are making Martin a saint so they can knock rowett down but hey that’s just what I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 5 hours ago, archied said: Why we even have fans believing we could very well be in first spot if only he could see Chris Martin is our best striker. I think you maybe making this part up or at the very least imagining it. I don't recall seeing anybody say this. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 hours ago, Steve How Hard? said: I think you maybe making this part up or at the very least imagining it. I don't recall seeing anybody say this. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Go back over the thread you will see it clearly alluded to ,you will also see clearly the games pointed out that if Martin had been played it would have made all the difference , follow the threads where rowett s ability as a manager is doubted because he doesn’t see what posters see in Martin ,, now that’s anybodies right to have that opinion but do me courtesy of not denying that that’s a commonly held and commonly expressed viewpoint regards Martin and rowett s use or non use of him ,,, now feel free to totally disagree with my opinion in understanding and agreeing with rowett and fair play to you, in my defence I point out we are second in the table , topish goal diff ,, almost top scorers in the division , meanest defence , playing far from dire all out defend pullis stuff and all this with very very limited game time from Chris Martin , the same Chris Martin that there is no mad rush to buy by any top clubs in our division or above ? ,wolves,Cardiff , Bristol ,Sheff u , villa ? Don’t pretend that if we had even one decent offer to buy from any club that we would not have cashed in and given that money to rowett to buy the players he wanted because we would have ,, there has been not one bid to buy him ,, not one , that is not a stick to beat Martin with as I think he has some decent qualities but the current incarnation of Chris Martin is way way overrated by some on here ,,, just my view of course but in fairness I have put forward decent points above to try to justify why I hold that view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 59 minutes ago, archied said: Go back over the thread you will see it clearly alluded to ,you will also see clearly the games pointed out that if Martin had been played it would have made all the difference , follow the threads where rowett s ability as a manager is doubted because he doesn’t see what posters see in Martin ,, now that’s anybodies right to have that opinion but do me courtesy of not denying that that’s a commonly held and commonly expressed viewpoint regards Martin and rowett s use or non use of him ,,, now feel free to totally disagree with my opinion in understanding and agreeing with rowett and fair play to you, in my defence I point out we are second in the table , topish goal diff ,, almost top scorers in the division , meanest defence , playing far from dire all out defend pullis stuff and all this with very very limited game time from Chris Martin , the same Chris Martin that there is no mad rush to buy by any top clubs in our division or above ? ,wolves,Cardiff , Bristol ,Sheff u , villa ? Don’t pretend that if we had even one decent offer to buy from any club that we would not have cashed in and given that money to rowett to buy the players he wanted because we would have ,, there has been not one bid to buy him ,, not one , that is not a stick to beat Martin with as I think he has some decent qualities but the current incarnation of Chris Martin is way way overrated by some on here ,,, just my view of course but in fairness I have put forward decent points above to try to justify why I hold that view That long winded reply still doesn't really answer my initial point that I don't believe anybody has said we would be in 1st place had Gary Rowett seen that CM is our best striker. You make some valid points and I respect your opinion. I think you may be reading too deeply into others opinions if you think that's what they are alluding to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Steve How Hard? said: That long winded reply still doesn't really answer my initial point that I don't believe anybody has said we would be in 1st place had Gary Rowett seen that CM is our best striker. You make some valid points and I respect your opinion. I think you may be reading too deeply into others opinions if you think that's what they are alluding to. I'm not sure if archied was referring to my post that with Martin under mclarens management this season then there no reason why we would not be top....but by saying that,I'm assuming we would probably have retained many players that have left under GR...so not just Martin's influence,more the team under Mac... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: I'm not sure if archied was referring to my post that with Martin under mclarens management this season then there no reason why we would not be top....but by saying that,I'm assuming we would probably have retained many players that have left under GR...so not just Martin's influence,more the team under Mac... Cheers for clearing that up. I thought I hadn't seen anybody actually say that GRs insistence of benching Martin had cost us 1st place in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Just now, Steve How Hard? said: Cheers for clearing that up. I thought I hadn't seen anybody actually say that GRs insistence of benching Martin had cost us 1st place in the league. As know martins style didn't naturally fit under GR so not using him wouldn't have caused that...but.....I do think that it could cost is long term this season as he was a very good way of providing an alternative up front from grs favourites. #imlivinginthepast however and looking forwards to seeing how he gets on at reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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