Clough and Burton

[ViewsFromTheMiddle]

10 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

huge win. Have we possibly just dragged forest back into it with a Seven point fap? ?

[Sith Happens]

7 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

We were brilliant first half they pummelled us second half and deserved a point bit as I've said elsewhere o don't give a rats arse about them or that right now.

 

huge win. Have we possibly just dragged forest back into it with a Seven point fap? ?

 

Any kind of win against millwall and we'll have had a superb week.

 

tom naylor has been sensational , I've really gone full circle on him and love him to bits, he's so under rated and has adapted superbly to a role as a ball carrying centre half. Him and his mate Kyle mcfadzean were immense tonight.

 

7 hours ago, ViewsFromTheMiddle said:

Well in fairness to @ronnieronalde, he did say it was coming.

[Gaspode]

Is Nige now resigned to them going down?  Heard him interviewed a few weeks ago and he sounded really stressed and under pressure - this morning on RD, he sounded so different - incredibly relaxed - almost serene - most un-Nige like.....

[Rample]

The tables seem to have turned again after Saturday and it seems a growing number of fans want shot of him.

Even those like me who loathe him accept his achievement last season was outstanding and his finest hour at any club, but with attendances dwindling and his endless we can't compete negativity, plus the fact he really struggled to get them up from a great position when they were last in league one, there's a definite school of thought someone else would have made a better go of this season and someone else would be better at getting them back up again.

He's going nowhere unless he takes another job. He won't resign, Robinson won't sack him unless they are really struggling in league one.

I think they will go down, but next season is anyone's guess - keep most of the side together, switch out some of his flops and keep Boyce fit and they could be in the mix at the top, a bad start and they could be the other end of the table.

For a team that has overachieved for a few years, a period of mid table league one, growing the club and its infrastructure would probably be a good thing. Doesn't matter if they miraculously stay up for another 10 years, they'll still be surving on scraps and losing their best players as it stands.

Keep churning out the likes of Palmer and Sbarra and that is what will enable them to progress.

I think the key problem this season, apart from his defeatist attitude and some very odd matchday decisions, weas his scattershot summer transfer policy. Reminds me of when they were in the conference and he'd bring some supposed quality player in, only for them to be dropped after a couple of gamea as they were no better than the existing players and then sold on or released within a month or 2.

[Zag zig]

2 hours ago, Rample said:

He's going nowhere unless he takes another job. He won't resign, Robinson won't sack him unless they are really struggling in league one.

 

For a team that has overachieved for a few years, a period of mid table league one, growing the club and its infrastructure would probably be a good thing. Doesn't matter if they miraculously stay up for another 10 years, they'll still be surving on scraps and losing their best players as it stands.

Ben would really have to fear for their demise to league 2 to sack him, because he works within budgets and refuses to bankrupt a club that’s not got huge pockets!

Exactly why they have over achieved. Growing infrastructure regardless of Clough would be difficult. Take it you’ve been in their club shop come ticket office, it’s smart but well tiny and explains more about their revenue streams; way below Championship levels.

Unfortunately for them with so many other “big” midlands clubs, they will be lucky to boost their fan base in say league 1. Actually think they could end up punching above their weight if they stay in league 1 in 10 years time. They need to become a bit like Brentford to keep pace with bigger clubs.

[ronnieronalde]

3 hours ago, Rample said:

The tables seem to have turned again after Saturday and it seems a growing number of fans want shot of him.

Even those like me who loathe him accept his achievement last season was outstanding and his finest hour at any club, but with attendances dwindling and his endless we can't compete negativity, plus the fact he really struggled to get them up from a great position when they were last in league one, there's a definite school of thought someone else would have made a better go of this season and someone else would be better at getting them back up again.

He's going nowhere unless he takes another job. He won't resign, Robinson won't sack him unless they are really struggling in league one.

I think they will go down, but next season is anyone's guess - keep most of the side together, switch out some of his flops and keep Boyce fit and they could be in the mix at the top, a bad start and they could be the other end of the table.

For a team that has overachieved for a few years, a period of mid table league one, growing the club and its infrastructure would probably be a good thing. Doesn't matter if they miraculously stay up for another 10 years, they'll still be surving on scraps and losing their best players as it stands.

Keep churning out the likes of Palmer and Sbarra and that is what will enable them to progress.

I think the key problem this season, apart from his defeatist attitude and some very odd matchday decisions, weas his scattershot summer transfer policy. Reminds me of when they were in the conference and he'd bring some supposed quality player in, only for them to be dropped after a couple of gamea as they were no better than the existing players and then sold on or released within a month or 2.

Well structured but basically ********.

Despite scraping over the line they were never out of the top two.

Summer transfers haven't worked out great but hardly scattergun.

Then the biggest load of waffle I've read for a while.

 Reminds you of the conference days? For someone who loathes him your memory goes back that far? If you can name one quality player he brought in then either shipped out or more ridiculously sold? I'll concede your point.

His transfer policy during the conference days was to build around the squad  he had and add one or two to it.

I don't mind you having a pop but base it on something other than made up stuff.

 

[ronnieronalde]

59 minutes ago, Zag zig said:

Ben would really have to fear for their demise to league 2 to sack him, because he works within budgets and refuses to bankrupt a club that’s not got huge pockets!

Exactly why they have over achieved. Growing infrastructure regardless of Clough would be difficult. Take it you’ve been in their club shop come ticket office, it’s smart but well tiny and explains more about their revenue streams; way below Championship levels.

Unfortunately for them with so many other “big” midlands clubs, they will be lucky to boost their fan base in say league 1. Actually think they could end up punching above their weight if they stay in league 1 in 10 years time. They need to become a bit like Brentford to keep pace with bigger clubs.

My own feeling is he'll quit in the summer EVEN if he pulls off another miracle.

Maybe Andy Garner will get a chance.

Some burton fans will get what they want.

I hope for the sake of the club and Ben it doesn't signal the start of a downward spiral.

They did ok last time he left to be fair.

[Mostyn6]

6 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

My own feeling is he'll quit in the summer EVEN if he pulls off another miracle.

Maybe Andy Garner will get a chance.

Some burton fans will get what they want.

I hope for the sake of the club and Ben it doesn't signal the start of a downward spiral.

They did ok last time he left to be fair.

when he goes, Wassall will take over.

[ronnieronalde]

16 minutes ago, Moist One said:

when he goes, Wassall will take over.

Ben has a history of appointing young coaches/ managers with potential.

Would be a good opportunity for Dazza and a good fit.

[Zag zig]

1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

My own feeling is he'll quit in the summer EVEN if he pulls off another miracle.

Maybe Andy Garner will get a chance.

Some burton fans will get what they want.

I hope for the sake of the club and Ben it doesn't signal the start of a downward spiral.

They did ok last time he left to be fair.

You maybe have a better inkling, some newer Burton fans do deserve such a fate. Doesn’t strike me as a quitter to be honest but be real surprised if Garner would stay, let alone get it. Clough’s man. Suppose it would depend on if Nige had other management ambitions.

Ben meantime aside from whether anyone would take to him in a business relationship, has at the end of the day been great for Burton Albion and a fine custodian of any lower league club - he more than anyone has deserved his adventures moving up the leagues a.i.m.o

[Rample]

11 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Well structured but basically ********.

Despite scraping over the line they were never out of the top two.

Summer transfers haven't worked out great but hardly scattergun.

Then the biggest load of waffle I've read for a while.

 Reminds you of the conference days? For someone who loathes him your memory goes back that far? If you can name one quality player he brought in then either shipped out or more ridiculously sold? I'll concede your point.

His transfer policy during the conference days was to build around the squad  he had and add one or two to it.

I don't mind you having a pop but base it on something other than made up stuff. 

 

It was touch and go down to the wire in the end, not only did Wigan comfortably overtake them but that inconsistent spell followed by failing to win in 5 on the bounce left them on the verge of 3rd. I know Walsall were unstoppable toward the end of the season but in the end it went down to the last day and they only did it by a point.

Summer transfers weren't quite as bad as I recall - Warnock, Akpan and loanees were clearly at the forefront of my mind . Can't knock keeping Brayford and Murphy or legislate for Boyle's injury or Buxton being surprisingly bad.

Seriously had Warnock, Akpan and Buxton been scouted recently or were they just jumped on as freebies?

Ripley, Scannell and Mason didn't last long either.

In addition not keeping or adequately replacing McLoughlan, not replacing Irvine and losing Moose's character were all errors.

Derby fan all my life but lived in Burton for 16 years and watched them a lot in that time - players were so forgettable names escape me but someone like Lee Colkin emphasises my point. Brought in on good wages, supposed to be great,  makes 14 appearances and shipped out because in the end he was no better than Aaron Webster, and that happened quite a bit. Transfer windows make a difference but already Lund and Warnock have been disposed of in addition to the afforementioned loanees.

Makes out he was hard done by in the conferencr but they had one of the biggest budgets, poached other teams best players, and for the most part kept signing players until they got lucky and some were good enough. The last 2 seasons he was there, there were times he looked clueless and the season before promotion to the league I remember quite a few people losing pafience with him reverting to long ball tactics. Didn't someone go as far as to put a Clough out sign on one of the fences on Derby Road, that sat there gor a few weeks? (not me, honest.) Didn't think he was good enough for them then, and certainly not for us.

As for other point above, overperforming - they have the means of a league 1 or 2 side but are in the championship and barely able to compete. I think it's more a case of needing to adopt the old Crewe model to improve.

[ronnieronalde]

41 minutes ago, Rample said:

It was touch and go down to the wire in the end, not only did Wigan comfortably overtake them but that inconsistent spell followed by failing to win in 5 on the bounce left them on the verge of 3rd. I know Walsall were unstoppable toward the end of the season but in the end it went down to the last day and they only did it by a point.

Summer transfers weren't quite as bad as I recall - Warnock, Akpan and loanees were clearly at the forefront of my mind . Can't knock keeping Brayford and Murphy or legislate for Boyle's injury or Buxton being surprisingly bad.

Seriously had Warnock, Akpan and Buxton been scouted recently or were they just jumped on as freebies?

Ripley, Scannell and Mason didn't last long either.

In addition not keeping or adequately replacing McLoughlan, not replacing Irvine and losing Moose's character were all errors.

Derby fan all my life but lived in Burton for 16 years and watched them a lot in that time - players were so forgettable names escape me but someone like Lee Colkin emphasises my point. Brought in on good wages, supposed to be great,  makes 14 appearances and shipped out because in the end he was no better than Aaron Webster, and that happened quite a bit. Transfer windows make a difference but already Lund and Warnock have been disposed of in addition to the afforementioned loanees.

Makes out he was hard done by in the conferencr but they had one of the biggest budgets, poached other teams best players, and for the most part kept signing players until they got lucky and some were good enough. The last 2 seasons he was there, there were times he looked clueless and the season before promotion to the league I remember quite a few people losing pafience with him reverting to long ball tactics. Didn't someone go as far as to put a Clough out sign on one of the fences on Derby Road, that sat there gor a few weeks? (not me, honest.) Didn't think he was good enough for them then, and certainly not for us.

As for other point above, overperforming - they have the means of a league 1 or 2 side but are in the championship and barely able to compete. I think it's more a case of needing to adopt the old Crewe model to improve.

Again very well put together but I could pull it apart piece by piece starting with Lee Collins the left back, how many times during his 14 games side get sent off, booked or stamp on someone? The bloke was a nutter and a liability. NC got his character wrong and as soon as he spotted he was a bad in, bombed him out.

If Lee colkin is your argument very about him constantly bringing in quality only to ship them out then you haven't got a leg to stand o before we get started. The names were so unforgettable they escape you. That's not what you indicated in your first post.

His last two seasons there he looked clueless? Was that during the run up to losing on the play off semi against Cambridge? Or was it the last season where he set the record for most wins in a row before leaving 13 points clear?

 

Biggest budget in the conference? A) garbage and B) why don't you mention they were also the only part time team in the division?

 

Got lucky or used the man utd cup money well bringing in players like Daryl Clare and Kevin Poole.

 

Yes some idiot put a Clough out banner up, it was a lad called Lee brewer and its that banner that I refer to when I say football fans are total idiots. Lee included if you know him.

 

League one, if we'd have beaten Wigan at home we'd have won the league and gone up as champions it was that tight. We smashed them at the pirelli and drew 0-0 and as good as Walsall were I the run in, they never got past us at any point, what more did he need to do.

 

I've given you a like cos you're pretty well informed and took the time to it together a decent effort, unfortunately looks like it might have been young Lee brewer , the Clough out clown , informing you.

Ask him how right he was back then and ask him of is still proud of being the idiot who got it so far wrong it's not true.

[ronnieronalde]

1 hour ago, Rample said:

It was touch and go down to the wire in the end, not only did Wigan comfortably overtake them but that inconsistent spell followed by failing to win in 5 on the bounce left them on the verge of 3rd. I know Walsall were unstoppable toward the end of the season but in the end it went down to the last day and they only did it by a point.

Summer transfers weren't quite as bad as I recall - Warnock, Akpan and loanees were clearly at the forefront of my mind . Can't knock keeping Brayford and Murphy or legislate for Boyle's injury or Buxton being surprisingly bad.

Seriously had Warnock, Akpan and Buxton been scouted recently or were they just jumped on as freebies?

Ripley, Scannell and Mason didn't last long either.

In addition not keeping or adequately replacing McLoughlan, not replacing Irvine and losing Moose's character were all errors.

Derby fan all my life but lived in Burton for 16 years and watched them a lot in that time - players were so forgettable names escape me but someone like Lee Colkin emphasises my point. Brought in on good wages, supposed to be great,  makes 14 appearances and shipped out because in the end he was no better than Aaron Webster, and that happened quite a bit. Transfer windows make a difference but already Lund and Warnock have been disposed of in addition to the afforementioned loanees.

Makes out he was hard done by in the conferencr but they had one of the biggest budgets, poached other teams best players, and for the most part kept signing players until they got lucky and some were good enough. The last 2 seasons he was there, there were times he looked clueless and the season before promotion to the league I remember quite a few people losing pafience with him reverting to long ball tactics. Didn't someone go as far as to put a Clough out sign on one of the fences on Derby Road, that sat there gor a few weeks? (not me, honest.) Didn't think he was good enough for them then, and certainly not for us.

As for other point above, overperforming - they have the means of a league 1 or 2 side but are in the championship and barely able to compete. I think it's more a case of needing to adopt the old Crewe model to improve.

And just quickly on your last point, you think they need to adopt the old Crewe model to improve?

 

Sorry but this is where my direct nature gets me in trouble.

What a load of *****.

Burton have gone from northern premier league to champiomship in less than 20 years and you think they should adopt someone elses policy, worse than that a club they have comfortably overtaken

Sorry pal but that just sums it up.

You've clearly either got a burton supporting mate or family member who supports them but who is clearly an ungrateful fool who cant or doesn't appreciate the magical journey the club has been on.

Burton fans have finished football for me. If they can get angry and turn on the players and manager after the success they've had then there's no hope.

I've been consistent, at least 80% of football fans are idiots who wouldn't know football if a mitre delta smacked them in the face.

[Day]

15 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Burton fans have finished football for me. If they can get angry and turn on the players and manager after the success they've had then there's no hope.

Thing is Ronnie, all fans want to see year on year improvement, regardless of the club and financial situation. Last season Burton fans I would imagine were happy just to survive, this season they were no doubt hoping to make it a little more comfortable.

After 37 games last season Burton were up in 19th, 11 points better off.

How Burton are even in the Championship becomes irrelevant, even if they overachieved back then the bar has be raised, and once you show what is capable it's difficult to take when the club goes backwards in the table.

Look on here, a poll at the start of the season most were just looking to be top 6, but as we were top 2 suddenly the season is almost seen as a disaster, some even calling for Rowett out.

The lesson for all managers is don't set the bar that high you can't reach again yourself.   

Doesn't get any easier for Burton either, away trip to Wolves then Cardiff followed by Boro at home, tough set of games for any club in this league!

[ronnieronalde]

8 minutes ago, David said:

Thing is Ronnie, all fans want to see year on year improvement, regardless of the club and financial situation. Last season Burton fans I would imagine were happy just to survive, this season they were no doubt hoping to make it a little more comfortable.

After 37 games last season Burton were up in 19th, 11 points better off.

How Burton are even in the Championship becomes irrelevant, even if they overachieved back then the bar has be raised, and once you show what is capable it's difficult to take when the club goes backwards in the table.

Look on here, a poll at the start of the season most were just looking to be top 6, but as we were top 2 suddenly the season is almost seen as a disaster, some even calling for Rowett out.

The lesson for all managers is don't set the bar that high you can't reach again yourself.   

Doesn't get any easier for Burton either, away trip to Wolves then Cardiff followed by Boro at home, tough set of games for any club in this league!

Don't disagree at all David pal.

Football is full of self entitled folk. On and off the pitch.

I don't post much on Derby matters these days but those calling for Gary out are out of order and have moved the goal posts on him. His remit was to have you challenging for promotion had you challenging

 Style or no style. Doesn't matter. Results matter.

Similar set of circumstances but different ends of the scale. Some Derby fans are missing out on the excitement of a play off campaign cos it's not good enough for them?

Over at Burton these days a cup draw away to Birmingham is seen as *****, playing teams they never dreamed they would be playing week in week out, not good enough.

Fans like that spoil the enjoyment of what should be the best time in the clubs short history. *******, nothing more nothing less.

PS I REALLY hope Gary pulls it off for the good Derby fans and for Mr morriss who had pumped a fortune into the club.

[ramblur]

14 hours ago, Moist One said:

when he goes, Wassall will take over.

Imo, that would be a very big loss for us (but you may well be right).

[Day]

2 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Don't disagree at all David pal.

Football is full of self entitled folk. On and off the pitch.

I don't post much on Derby matters these days but those calling for Gary out are out of order and have moved the goal posts on him. His remit was to have you challenging for promotion had you challenging

 Style or no style. Doesn't matter. Results matter.

Similar set of circumstances but different ends of the scale. Some Derby fans are missing out on the excitement of a play off campaign cos it's not good enough for them?

Over at Burton these days a cup draw away to Birmingham is seen as *****, playing teams they never dreamed they would be playing week in week out, not good enough.

Fans like that spoil the enjoyment of what should be the best time in the clubs short history. *******, nothing more nothing less.

PS I REALLY hope Gary pulls it off for the good Derby fans and for Mr morriss who had pumped a fortune into the club.

Was thinking about this the other day, are the clubs to blame if there is any self entitlement, in 16/17 the average tenure of a manager hit an all time low of 1.16 years, 0.95 years in the Championship. 

If clubs are quick to pull the trigger, it's no surprise fans have followed down the same path, to think Rowett is has survived longer than the average tenure last season is nuts when he still hasn't completed a full season in charge yet. 

When clubs start to stand by their managers more, we may see a shift in mentality once again. 

I guess it's why top managers show little interest in bringing through academy players, why would they be thinking of the clubs best interests 3/4 years down the line when they are likely to be gone after 2. It's why so much money is being spent on signings, the ready made stick them straight in players that will achieve them instant success.

The much praised Guardiola has changed his thinking, from being quoted as rather playing a young player than spend £50m on a player now starts the bidding at £50m.

The money is there as we the fans fund it.

Whilst Ben Robinson can't be accused of having an itchy finger, Burton fans will still see what's going on around them, soaking up the Sky Sports coverage, looking at managers being sacked for failing to push the club on. 

Difficult times ahead for Nigel, if they go down it would be ambitious to target an instant return to a league where they maybe shouldn't have been. How and where do Burton fans reset their expectations?

 

[ramblur]

9 minutes ago, David said:

 

Whilst Ben Robinson can't be accused of having an itchy finger, Burton fans will still see what's going on around them, soaking up the Sky Sports coverage, looking at managers being sacked for failing to push the club on. 

Difficult times ahead for Nigel, if they go down it would be ambitious to target an instant return to a league where they maybe shouldn't have been. How and where do Burton fans reset their expectations?

 

Thinking about it,that might be the thing stopping DW from accepting the job ,if offered it eventually. Bit of a hiding to nothing situation. Anyway,that's me definitely finished for a while.

[ronnieronalde]

I said for years David that you should post more often with your football views, most of which are either spot on or at least well thought out and you usually post calmly. Fair play.

Again your post is spot on, the only thing I would add is that in my mind it's the fans as much as the money men who have driven this get rid mentality to the point where it's a joke.

Tying it in to the Was joining burton if NC leaves.

5 years ago you had a manager who tool the long term view, who had such an open door for players coming through the academy that Was must have been in dream land. It was do easy to see what a great job him, pat Lyons and Lee glover were doing cos there was two of their lads in the side every week. Two of those made Derby 15 million quid in fees.

That manager got sacked for not moving forward quickly enough. (Let's say rightly sacked to avoid that argument again)

Fast forward 5:years, Gary might want to play the kids but can't, he saw what happened last time, he'd be a fool to try.

Wass keeps producing them but now the door is closed. Where is the next 15 million kid coming from?

It's coming from Mel and in my opinion that's not right.

Short termism will end up killing the game, Wass will have to go somewhere else and Derby will end up losing one of its best ever producers of young talent.

Games gone mad pal, mad I tell you.

[Day]

6 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Tying it in to the Was joining burton if NC leaves.

5 years ago you had a manager who tool the long term view, who had such an open door for players coming through the academy that Was must have been in dream land. It was do easy to see what a great job him, pat Lyons and Lee glover were doing cos there was two of their lads in the side every week. Two of those made Derby 15 million quid in fees.

That manager got sacked for not moving forward quickly enough. (Let's say rightly sacked to avoid that argument again)

Fast forward 5:years, Gary might want to play the kids but can't, he saw what happened last time, he'd be a fool to try.

Wass keeps producing them but now the door is closed. Where is the next 15 million kid coming from?

It's coming from Mel and in my opinion that's not right.

Short termism will end up killing the game, Wass will have to go somewhere else and Derby will end up losing one of its best ever producers of young talent.

Nigel was lucky in that he had the Paul Jewell buffer period which brought everyone back to earth, after a joint venture with Billy Davies in wasting as much money as possible, Nigel was in charge of the clean up which fans acknowledge was needed.

Similar situation at Forest, load of money spent unwisely, as a result the decks had to be cleared and opened opportunities to bring through youth players. In doing so they were able to profit off Burke. 

Whilst expectations are just to get to May it's easier to bring through youngsters, isn't the pressure which is present for clubs battling to stay up or get promoted. Mel asked the question the other night, would a 16 year old Will Hughes get into this fully fit side, probably not, timing plays a huge part in academy players futures it's kinda scary how many must slip through the net and fail to reach their potential as the years ticked by.

13/14 Was the start of we must go up yesterday, when you come that close it's natural to think that's the aim now, the money spent the following seasons has only strengthened those demands and whilst Rowett won't be judged this season promotion, he knows full well that is the target for this club. If we show no signs of improving he will be out the door, simple as. 

If the Burton job came up and Wassall was in the frame, would be better off staying put, send some cannon fodder in there for a year, lower those expectations, Wassall comes riding down the A38 in his shining armour, clears the decks of those which are past it and starts to bring through some younger players he has come across on his U23 travels. 

Would actually be a sensible choice if Nigel was to live, just can't see him getting sacked though, doesn't seem the type to walk away from a job either so not sure what will give there, or even if it has to.