Players or Manager

[ram1964]

The forum has certainly come to life since yesterdays result.Everyone with an opinion and we are all in agreement that things arent good enough,with no sign of improvement since our dismall start to the season with NP at the helm.

Who is to blame ,players or Manager?

Players obviously not enjoying their time with Np in charge,poor performances from even the least likely players such as Carson who has in his time with us genrally been excellent.Players such as Ince look lost and the squad as a whole look disjointed, lacking commitment and showing a Shadow of their capability.

The manager proven at this level,new to the job working mainly with players he has not signed .,Alot on comfortable contracts. People questioning his formations and team selections (including myself).but do we really know the underlying issuies at the club? Is Pearson restricted to only certain players due to a player revolt? Hence Blackman coming on yesterday.(wouldnt make the bench in my selection) The two players brought in  by NP ,Anya and vydra both look capable ,

So who do you have the most confidence in?players who have continually failed undert 3 previous managers for what ever reason or do you except that Np,Wassall,Clement and Mac were and arnt up to the job?

[jono]

I know you are trying to stimulate open debate but as a basic principal I don't like this blame game thing. It almost seems as if many posters thrive on an east Enders mentality when things aren't going well. There has to be a "cliff hanger" based on some internal conflict.

ok so players aren't getting the message, the manager is transmitting his message .. So you sit down and work it out on the training ground or in the meeting room like grown ups.

why does it always have to be bad eggs inept managers and someone due for the big heave ho 

[ram1964]

2 minutes ago, jono said:

I know you are trying to stimulate open debate but as a basic principal I don't like this blame game thing. It almost seems as if many posters thrive on an east Enders mentality when things aren't going well. There has to be a "cliff hanger" based on some internal conflict.

ok so players aren't getting the message, the manager is transmitting his message .. So you sit down and work it out on the training ground or in the meeting room like grown ups.

why does it always have to be bad eggs inept managers and someone due for the big heave ho 

Am just prevoking thoughts, do any of us know or appreciate what underlying issues may be lurking behind the scenes,is NP as bad a manager as he presently appears on paper,?Why cant players previously seen as very capable not put it together on the pitch?

[Inglorius]

17 minutes ago, ram1964 said:

The forum has certainly come to life since yesterdays result.Everyone with an opinion and we are all in agreement that things arent good enough,with no sign of improvement since our dismall start to the season with NP at the helm.

Everything isn't always black and white there's always some grey inbetween 

[Anon]

14 minutes ago, ram1964 said:

So who do you have the most confidence in?players who have continually failed undert 3 previous managers for what ever reason or do you except that Np,Wassall,Clement and Mac were and arnt up to the job?

Give me strength, not this obvious fallacy yet again. 3rd, 8th, 5th is not failure unless you are willing to admit to me that you are one of the entitled Derby fans who expects promotion and nothing less. Wassall, Clement, and McClaren weren't failures either as they all had us in or around the play off positions. There's one outlier here and it's Pearson. For anyone who plans on replying "but it's only September", we are 1/5 of the way through the season with a projected points total of 31 and the manager himself admits that is all we deserve.

[ram1964]

1 minute ago, Inglorius said:

Everything isn't always black and white there's always some grey inbetween 

Would love to know what the grey inbetween was though wouldnt we.

[WhiteHorseRam]

9 minutes ago, jono said:

I know you are trying to stimulate open debate but as a basic principal I don't like this blame game thing. It almost seems as if many posters thrive on an east Enders mentality when things aren't going well. There has to be a "cliff hanger" based on some internal conflict.

ok so players aren't getting the message, the manager is transmitting his message .. So you sit down and work it out on the training ground or in the meeting room like grown ups.

why does it always have to be bad eggs inept managers and someone due for the big heave ho 

You are quite right jono.

However, the table does not lie. 1 win, 3 draws and 5 defeats. 6pts from 9 games is relegation form (if you have less pts than games played alarm bells should be ringing). On the excitement front we are averaging 0.3 of a goal per game.

Considering where we have been in the league over the last 3-4 years it is a bit traumatic.The general consensus on this forum at the start of Saturday was we would win (maybe 3-1), however, smacked again.

Something is misfiring as NP/the team must be working hard on all areas between games. I don't want him to go yet, but somethings got to improve.

One upside we should take from yesterday is what Liverpool did to Hull, puts last Tuesday into some context.

[ram1964]

2 minutes ago, Anon said:

Give me strength, not this obvious fallacy yet again. 3rd, 8th, 5th is not failure unless you are willing to admit to me that you are one of the entitled Derby fans who expects promotion and nothing less. Wassall, Clement, and McClaren weren't failures either as they all had us in or around the play off positions. There's one outlier here and it's Pearson. For anyone who plans on replying "but it's only September", we are 1/5 of the way through the season with a projected points total of 31 and the manager himself admits that is all we deserve.

Failure may be strong,underachieved,disapointed may be.No i dont think we should be winning everything and are simply the best. But with the quality of resources of managers,players and facilities incomparison to the likes of most clubs something is not right,and expectations from fans deservedly should be raised.

[t'oldu]

Expectations from fans already too high and part of the trouble acc. to NP

[Inglorius]

19 minutes ago, ram1964 said:

Would love to know what the grey inbetween was though wouldnt we.

Could be a number of things quite rightly the club isn't hanging out any of their dirty laundry in public 

[ram1964]

3 minutes ago, t'oldu said:

Expectations from fans already too high and part of the trouble acc. to NP

What expectations should fans have? Large home and away support,fantastic facilities,chairman with money,big bucks spent,Managers of repute within the last few years.Am not advocating we should win the leauge, but yes my expectations for the club are high at present and would expect us to be playing winning football,hopefully attractive,competing for automatic promotion ,certainly play offs.

[jono]

19 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

You are quite right jono.

However, the table does not lie. 1 win, 3 draws and 5 defeats. 6pts from 9 games is relegation form (if you have less pts than games played alarm bells should be ringing). On the excitement front we are averaging 0.3 of a goal per game.

Considering where we have been in the league over the last 3-4 years it is a bit traumatic.The general consensus on this forum at the start of Saturday was we would win (maybe 3-1), however, smacked again.

Something is misfiring as NP/the team must be working hard on all areas between games. I don't want him to go yet, but somethings got to improve.

One upside we should take from yesterday is what Liverpool did to Hull, puts last Tuesday into some context.

Yes Whitehorse. What we have seen isn't a slow start or a flash in the pan. There are problems. I can't believe how glum I feel today, not even goals to light the gloom. Worse still when heads go down the infighting starts just as we are seeing now.

for me Cardiff isn't to b all and end all but it would help immensely if we could get something from the game. I won't start to really worry until Christmas and intend to try and find positives but it isn't easy is it. I don't think our players are rubbish and I don't think Pearson is out of his depth but something in the recipe doesn't taste right at the moment and it's more than 433 or 442. 

[ram1964]

5 minutes ago, jono said:

Yes Whitehorse. What we have seen isn't a slow start or a flash in the pan. There are problems. I can't believe how glum I feel today, not even goals to light the gloom. Worse still when heads go down the infighting starts just as we are seeing now.

for me Cardiff isn't to b all and end all but it would help immensely if we could get something from the game. I won't start to really worry until Christmas and intend to try and find positives but it isn't easy is it. I don't think our players are rubbish and I don't think Pearson is out of his depth but something in the recipe doesn't taste right at the moment and it's more than 433 or 442. 

My sentiments exactly,

[Tony Le Mesmer]

15 minutes ago, t'oldu said:

Expectations from fans already too high and part of the trouble acc. to NP

If he seriously did say this after what we've witnessed after 9 games (plus 3 pretty dreadful cup games) then it's tightrope time already for the bloke.

The fans turn up. Yes they might boo now and then but they pay their money and by and large are fair and reasonable. They've done nothing wrong or have we all suddenly become Paul McKenna and can hypnotise the players to play badly and the manger to make bizarre decisions and show no energy? They've done that not the fans.

Mr Smith in the North Stand expects to win the league. So how does that make NP and the players churn out crud week in week out? Don't see the link somehow.

Surely he didn't say this considering how badly we've played, how few we've scored and how few points we've accumulated thus far?

I'd say that EVERY Derby fan expected a bit more than has been put before us so far this season and without going overly optimistic with expectations, every one would have been right to do so.

I think Mr Pearson should just concentrate on what he CAN change and ignore what he can't.

That said, any source for this info?

[t'oldu]

Listen to his post match interview on BBCi  player. 

[Rev]

Pearson: "We should be playing with more drive and commitment" -

@BBCDerby

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p048xk83

 

[BondJovi]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Can't this be down to both players and the manager? I agree with some of what has been said above, the issues the club has are deeper than the beloved 4-3-3. I look back at the Rotherham game under Wassall, regardless of the subs those players should have seen that game out.

[Stripperg-ram]

1 hour ago, Anon said:

Give me strength, not this obvious fallacy yet again. 3rd, 8th, 5th is not failure unless you are willing to admit to me that you are one of the entitled Derby fans who expects promotion and nothing less. Wassall, Clement, and McClaren weren't failures either as they all had us in or around the play off positions. There's one outlier here and it's Pearson. For anyone who plans on replying "but it's only September", we are 1/5 of the way through the season with a projected points total of 31 and the manager himself admits that is all we deserve.

This!!

i completely agree.

As I've said in other threads, the idea that failure to get promoted is the same as failure to win a game is ridiculous. 

Especially with the context of Maclaren's eye wandering North Eastwards, Clement allegedly having back room issues and poor old Dazzer lumped in at the last minute, to save the day with very little praise from the fans or time to prepare and a team of players he'd had no say in buying/picking.

Miraculous we even got above 10th if you think about it.

But now NP's here and he was good at Leicester so he can't be wrong....!??

Jewel was good at Bradford.

Steve Mac was great at Wolfsburg and cack at Forest and toon.

There are too many examples of managers being good somewhere and awful elsewhere. Maybe Pearson is just at the wrong club....!??

[Sparkle]

Football management should be quite simple, look at what you have and play a system to best suit your players with evolution being a natural process - revolution causes chaos as you are trying to get your dog to catch rats where as a cat thinks it is a simple task 

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Anon said:

Give me strength, not this obvious fallacy yet again. 3rd, 8th, 5th is not failure unless you are willing to admit to me that you are one of the entitled Derby fans who expects promotion and nothing less. Wassall, Clement, and McClaren weren't failures either as they all had us in or around the play off positions. There's one outlier here and it's Pearson. For anyone who plans on replying "but it's only September", we are 1/5 of the way through the season with a projected points total of 31 and the manager himself admits that is all we deserve.

It confuses me. 

Nigel Clough rebuild wasnt failure. 

Then the last 3 seasons are failure. 

But the dream? The ultimate success? Being midtable in the PL. 

I don't get it. I dunno whether Derby fans expectations are stupidily high or tragically low. 

All i know is that i enjoyed football a lot more in the failure seasons. 85pts, top scorers.. i like failure i think