SillyBilly Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 3 hours ago, Gaspode said: So are you saying we should have let him get on a plane to Ecuador? What if he did do it? Surely the whole point of the judicial system is that if someone has been acused of something, they should be apprehended and have to stand trial. We have no idea wether he did or didn't commit the crime, but what we do know is that the Swedish police have issued a valid warrant for his arrest and that we have an agreement with Sweden to apprehend people in his situation. It's not up to public opinion (or for that matter, a UN 'panel') whether we try to arrest this man or not, it's the law. And what if the alleged victim had been a member of your family - would you be quite so quick to write off the complaint against him as part of a conspiracy and ask why the police were bothering to try and arrest him? We can pontificate on "what ifs" all day long but I don't see where that gets us. What if the whole thing has been fabricated? Shall we go back and forth? The point is I don't know and I am wondering why so much money has been spent on pursuing him. It seems to me he has a target on his head bigger than that of your ordinary alleged rapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 After just listening to Assange on 5Live, I'm inclined to go there myself and drag him out onto the street. What utter BS. He isn't being imprisoned. He's just hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Do we know for sure that Sweden would extradite him to the US? Maybe he would be better off taking his chances with the Swedish legal system...rather than staying in the Ecuadorian embassy. As pleasing as it must be for Ecuador to annoy the US and Europe...they must be getting a little bored with the situation at this stage. Of course, no one doubts that he has avoid being taken to the US, because if they get him...it's game over for Assange. Whatever US administration is in charge, they seem to be a little unforgiving when it comes to individuals meddling in 'national security' issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockholmRam Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Ok... The Swedish view point based on facts as we know them here. Assange was thrown a party in his honor by one of the lasses he is alleged to have raped. The two ladies in question who are well known in Sweden ( and a long time in hiding here not wanting to answer obvious media questions) are for at least two weeks after the alleged rape tweeting their joy at being Assanges new found friends. Anna Ardin is beside herself with hero worship on Twitter throughout the time from when the rape was supposed to happen until the charges were laid... She tried to delete all her social media activity unsuccessfully.... Also, If Ardin had been raped, as she now claims, did she not warn her friend Sofia Wilen when Sofia at a later date, and known by Ardin to be with Assange went on a date with him... Come ON now... If you are a girl and you have been raped for real by some scumbag and then you know your friend is going on a date with him you would say something.... Surely. So Assange has supposed to have raped these two girls.. Then he is swanning around Stockholm, hero worshipped by media etc making tons of new friends.. Then Bang...rape claims. Police talked to him prior to leaving Sweden but let him go they did.... I suspect as many do here that Swedish govt was put under huge pressure by USA about him and if USA cracked the whip under our previous govt then they jumped. Happy bed fellows then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I don't care if he's guilty or not. Of the rapes or the American charges. I'm just peed off that the UK taxpayer is picking up the bill while one man hides from both the Swedish and American authorities, whilst at the same time being criticised by the UN for unlawfully detaining him - when he can walk out of the building any time he likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shang Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 14 minutes ago, Wolfie said: I don't care if he's guilty or not. Of the rapes or the American charges. I'm just peed off that the UK taxpayer is picking up the bill while one man hides from both the Swedish and American authorities, whilst at the same time being criticised by the UN for unlawfully detaining him - when he can walk out of the building any time he likes. He's effectively being detained. Meaning that he could leave but then end up in the US and charged without trial under national security (e.g. a reason why a lot of people end up in Guantanamo and we know how many innocent people end up there) Sweden has flat out refused to guarantee he won't be flown to America. Assange has offered to supply a written statement or be interviewed within the embassy but that has been refused. The rape cases have actually been dropped since it's expired yet they're still trying to arrest him so they can "launch an inquiry". You have to understand that if he walks out that building he WILL be taken to the US against his will, under the guise of justice for these rape cases, which now have been dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 28 minutes ago, Wolfie said: I don't care if he's guilty or not.... And that's exactly the point that so many are missing. It really doesn't matter whether he's guilty or not - if there is a valid warrant for his arrest, we must (under the terms of the European agreements we have in place) execute that warrant and arrest him as soon as we can - the fact that he's hiding under the bed and refusing to come out is the reason for the current circus. This is not an edition of "I'm a celebrity...." where the public get to vote on what happens to him based on whether they agree with what he did in relation to the wiki-leaks information. He has been accused (however dodgy that accusation appears) and the Swedish authorities want to talk to him about it. Unless they change their minds and withdraw the warrant or he accepts that he needs to come out of hiding and face the music (for one or both of the issues), I don't see the situation changing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 24 minutes ago, Wolfie said: I don't care if he's guilty or not. Of the rapes or the American charges. I'm just peed off that the UK taxpayer is picking up the bill while one man hides from both the Swedish and American authorities, whilst at the same time being criticised by the UN for unlawfully detaining him - when he can walk out of the building any time he likes. I'm sure Assange is with you...he would prefer if the UK taxpayer was not paying a penny too, and that the police and no interest in his whereabouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 4 hours ago, Gaspode said: If I understand it correctly (and the reports of the comments from the UK & Swedish governments seem to back this view), the UN panel is not part of the law of this country and therefore the judgement is not legally binding. I don't think we look like hypocrites - we've followed the rule of law in this country and in Europe - the only person who looks hypocritical in this mess is Assange who was happy to take the publicity for disclosing state secrets that could have got people killed and yet is now trying to use the law to protect himself from the consequences He disclosed "state secrets" that did get people killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 25 minutes ago, Shang said: You have to understand that if he walks out that building he WILL be taken to the US against his will, under the guise of justice for these rape cases, which now have been dropped. Oh I do understand and I agree, except that I heard that there were 2 sexual assualt charges dropped but there is still a rape charge to answer. I expect he will end up in the USA but that is the result of a legal extradition process between the USA, Sweden and UK. While we might not like the result (some at the UN clearly don't), it is legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 25 minutes ago, Gaspode said: And that's exactly the point that so many are missing. It really doesn't matter whether he's guilty or not - if there is a valid warrant for his arrest, we must (under the terms of the European agreements we have in place) execute that warrant and arrest him as soon as we can - the fact that he's hiding under the bed and refusing to come out is the reason for the current circus. This is not an edition of "I'm a celebrity...." where the public get to vote on what happens to him based on whether they agree with what he did in relation to the wiki-leaks information. He has been accused (however dodgy that accusation appears) and the Swedish authorities want to talk to him about it. Unless they change their minds and withdraw the warrant or he accepts that he needs to come out of hiding and face the music (for one or both of the issues), I don't see the situation changing.... Couldn't (and haven't) put it better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 On 05/02/2016 at 15:18, Highgate said: I'm sure Assange is with you...he would prefer if the UK taxpayer was not paying a penny too, and that the police and no interest in his whereabouts. Exactly - interesting that so many people are quick to blame Assange for our taxes being spent on policing the embassy, and no one is blaming the US for doggedly pursuing him and exerting influence on other nation states to be spending that money. Don't you think that these country would also rather NOT be spending that money? It's all a massive powerplay by the US. They are the ones we should be blaming for our taxes being mispent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I have mixed emotions on this. I am not fond of the American attitude that their laws and needs are entirely separate and superior to the rest of the worlds. It is absolutely clear to me that whatever happens in Sweden, the Americans will find a way to legally extradite him; that is what he is hiding from. Then there is wiki leaks itself. Again I am all for open government and playing by the rules but it's very easy to criticise the American or any government for dubious tactics and behaviours if you are "in opposition" .. Truth is when in power sometimes ugly decisions have to be made and grey areas are entered. I sometimes wonder if we need a second set of moralities to cover the degree of wrong behaviour that is allowable. Planted evidence to nail a genuine baddy ? Torture of known terrorists ? An assisted death by a doctor of a terminally ill patient ? Extraordinary rendition ? Carpet bombing of a deadly foe ? Risky medical trials ? I understand Assange up to a point but leaking every grey zone that we have crossed in a battle with bad guys isn't always as morally clear as he would have you believe. Is giving Putin (or indeed any of the Wests enemies) ammunition to hurt the Wests political position morally ok when those with different views are perhaps more even morally corrupt ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 On 05/02/2016 at 15:17, Gaspode said: And that's exactly the point that so many are missing. It really doesn't matter whether he's guilty or not - if there is a valid warrant for his arrest, we must (under the terms of the European agreements we have in place) execute that warrant and arrest him as soon as we can - the fact that he's hiding under the bed and refusing to come out is the reason for the current circus. This is not an edition of "I'm a celebrity...." where the public get to vote on what happens to him based on whether they agree with what he did in relation to the wiki-leaks information. He has been accused (however dodgy that accusation appears) and the Swedish authorities want to talk to him about it. Unless they change their minds and withdraw the warrant or he accepts that he needs to come out of hiding and face the music (for one or both of the issues), I don't see the situation changing.... I love the use of the term 'valid arrest warrant'. Valid in whose eyes? I don't think it's valid at all. I think it's the biggest piece of phony rubbish I've ever heard. Dangerous thinking to just say "It doesn't matter that the accusation is dodgy, as long as they have the warrant". It's not just open to corruption to only focus on the bit of paper that says he must be arrested, it IS being used as a tool for corrupt politicians to take down a potential threat to their tyranny. It IS being used for the sake of corruption. For once we're not talking about "potential for corruption", what you're seeing is an attempt to subdue a political enemy on jumped up charges. That's what Fascists do. It's what Hitler did. It's what Stalin did. They execute heroes like him. We can't throw him to the wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 29 minutes ago, Tombo said: I love the use of the term 'valid arrest warrant'. Valid in whose eyes? I don't think it's valid at all. I think it's the biggest piece of phony rubbish I've ever heard.... It's valid in the eyes of Swedish law, EU law and therefore UK law, which is more than enough to say that we have an obligation to arrest him. How would you suggest we should deal with Assange? look the other way while he does a runner to Ecuador? Tell Sweden to stick their warrant as the reason behind it may be a bit dodgy? give him a medal as he's a 'hero'? (good grief!). Under the terms of the legal agreement we have with Sweden (and numerous other countries), we HAVE to arrest him (if we don't, then all levels of inter-police international co-operation come tumbling down so that we cannot expect other countries to return our criminals when they manage to leave our shores). It's all very well spouting off about corruption, tyranny and fascism, but in the real world, we trust our governments to make laws and then our authorities to uphold them. It's naive to think that we should only apply the law to people if we agree that it's being used for the right reasons (and who decides? - should the authorities give you a call every time that they want to do something you might not agree with - who made you spokesman for 'the people'?). If you don't like the way the law is applied in this country, you have an absolute right to complain about it, to lobby for it to be changed or to try and persuade sufficient people of a similar mind to vote with you in order to bring about change - but what you can't do is pick and choose which laws should be applied and when just because you don't like them in a particular circumstance. This all comes back to the 'public vote' comment I made earlier - and I'm afraid with your lecture regarding corruption, you've managed to completely prove my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, Gaspode said: It's all very well spouting off about corruption, tyranny and fascism, but in the real world, we trust our governments ...and anyone who thinks like that deserve all they get I don't care about Assange, I care about the principles of political asylum and I care about not being subject to an international US-led dictatorship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 1 hour ago, StivePesley said: ....I care about the principles of political asylum and I care about not being subject to an international US-led dictatorship Assange has his 'asylum' and it is being respected by the UK government (otherwise they'd have dragged him out of the embassy and arrested him). As far as the principles of political asylum go, the definition is of someone seeking asylum when they are in danger of being persecuted for their political views in their own country - Assange is Australian, he is in the UK (on effectively Ecuadorian soil) and is being pursued by Sweden & the US, so technically, doesn't fit the definition - he's using the embassy as a hiding place rather than face the music for what he has done (in the case of wikileaks) and what he has been accused of doing (in the case of the rape allegation) - neither of these fit with the concept of political asylum. As far as being "subject to an international US-led dictatorship" - he should have perhaps considered the potential consequences before he leaked the confidential information. The US does not take kindly to such acts and were always going to want to bring the weight of their justice system to bear. Like it or not, the UK (and the majority of Western countries) are on the same side as the US and will obviously be asked to assist in a case such as this. If that is too objectionable to you, I'd suggest the UK is possibly not the place to live as such a relationship is unlikely to change in the short-term...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inglorius Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 2 hours ago, StivePesley said: ...and anyone who thinks like that deserve all they get I don't care about Assange, I care about the principles of political asylum and I care about not being subject to an international US-led dictatorship Assange shouldn't be granted political asylum as he is a fugitive from the law not a political refugee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 It is amusing to see such glee from assange's defenders that the Americans have been caught out breaking the law on things like seizing suspected terrorists in murky circumstances or spying on their allies yet ignoring the same rule of law argument when demanding his freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 15 hours ago, Gaspode said: If that is too objectionable to you, I'd suggest the UK is possibly not the place to live Yep - every day I sit and dream about moving to a country that isn't as full of C*nts as this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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