rusgb Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Imagine you go to a restaurant with a mate and you pay £50 for your meal. You have been many, many times before. You know what you can expect and what you normally get. In the past couple of years the food has been particularly good. You head there on a Tuesday night and the starter is not what you expected, but surprisingly it actually does the job. Then the main is dull and tasteless, halfway through the meal you think, 'it's ok, this will get better' and you reshuffle the plate slightly to make it look better. There is no improvement. Desert is crap. You look around you and 28,000 other customers seem to be having the same experience as you. Now it becomes difficult because this is your favourite restaurant and it always has been, always will be. You are a 'supporter' and you cannot move to another restaurant, especially the smelly red one next door. So, when you all leave what should you do? a) Leave a big tip, cheer and say you can't wait to come back. b) Say 'that was fine, thanks' and leave no tip. c) Tell the staff that you were disappointed with the meal. Although I did not personally boo at the end I can understand why people do and think it is their right to do so. If we stick with (a) then before long we'll become like Newcastle, clapping and cheering at crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, rusgb said: Imagine you go to a restaurant with a mate and you pay £50 for your meal. You have been many, many times before. You know what you can expect and what you normally get. In the past couple of years the food has been particularly good. You head there on a Tuesday night and the starter is not what you expected, but surprisingly it actually does the job. Then the main is dull and tasteless, halfway through the meal you think, 'it's ok, this will get better' and you reshuffle the plate slightly to make it look better. There is no improvement. Desert is crap. You look around you and 28,000 other customers seem to be having the same experience as you. Now it becomes difficult because this is your favourite restaurant and it always has been, always will be. You are a 'supporter' and you cannot move to another restaurant, especially the smelly red one next door. So, when you all leave what should you do? a) Leave a big tip, cheer and say you can't wait to come back. b) Say 'that was fine, thanks' and leave no tip. c) Tell the staff that you were disappointed with the meal. Although I did not personally boo at the end I can understand why people do and think it is their right to do so. If we stick with (a) then before long we'll become like Newcastle, clapping and cheering at crap. In this scenario, is there another group of chefs in the kitchen trying to stop you preparing your normally good standard of food? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 13 minutes ago, Srg said: In this scenario, is there another group of chefs in the kitchen trying to stop you preparing your normally good standard of food? Meanwhile, there are 23 other restaurants, all competing with yours for a prize of £100m+ and you know that if your chefs are feeling confident, it will give them a better chance of winning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 And then you hit a really bad blip... The owner has pumped countless money into refurbing the venue, started paying higher wages to attract better waiters, bar staff and cocktail makers... but the manager is only just finding his way in the restaurant business. Yet still, the food isn't good. It has plenty of flair, but it's not functional as it just doesn't fill you up. It's not consistent. One day you have a world beating Fillet Steak, the next day it's boil in a bag ***** from a Marston's pub... Then all of a sudden... you're on Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 And then the manager of the restaurant comes out and says that the chef didn't do what they were asked to do and didn't get the basics right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 There is a place for booing. Plenty of it went on in the 07/08 season. They deserved that. In this situation, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Just now, Tombo said: There is a place for booing. Plenty of it went on in the 07/08 season. They deserved that. In this situation, not at all. What's this got to do with the restaurant business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, Srg said: What's this got to do with the restaurant business? We were eating **** sandwiches for years, so contextually it's not a disaster if this restaurant happens to overdo the occasional steak. We know they can and will deliver more satisfying meals in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 I really can't believe we've had 11 pages of drivel about booing.... so what.... It's football, it's fickle... Like it or lump it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockholmRam Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 2 hours ago, StringerBell said: No I'm not playing devils advocate. I genuinely can't say with any degree of confidence what impact some booing at the end of one match will have on the players performance in the next match. It could be a positive influence or a negative one. He was in the Sherwood Foresters back in the 90's. Did tours of Northern Ireland and Bosnia. I think he misses the camaraderie sometimes. I've no idea if that's decent in your eyes pal - too many forest fans in their ranks maybe ?haha. Foresters ok in my book with the obvious exception to the name. My dad did his national service as a bandsman with them in 50s. Their barracks was where the cinema and leisure park is off Sinfin Lane. Think it might even be called foresters leisure centre. Sadly defunct now as a regt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockholmRam Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 3 hours ago, Red_Dawn said: 30m spent, 2nd in the league and they were booing? Ahhh jeez..now look what I started!! Sorry lads and lasses. At least there were enough bodies in our stadium for a noise or two to be heard eh Dawny!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 10 minutes ago, StockholmRam said: Ahhh jeez..now look what I started!! Sorry lads and lasses. At least there were enough bodies in our stadium for a noise or two to be heard eh Dawny!! Yeah but free tickets.. Doesnt count if the only reason people come is to boo and be given some free corporate tat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockholmRam Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 33 minutes ago, Mafiabob said: I really can't believe we've had 11 pages of drivel about booing.... so what.... It's football, it's fickle... Like it or lump it! What..you can't believe there are 11 pages of opinion on a football forum? Blimey..you should see the one about watches Bob... Its a forum... An opinion.. Like it or lump it... Or boo it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 1 hour ago, StockholmRam said: What..you can't believe there are 11 pages of opinion on a football forum? Blimey..you should see the one about watches Bob... Its a forum... An opinion.. Like it or lump it... Or boo it... Booooooooo.... Although I will agree about the watch one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Chatting about the game with my Forest supporting boss mentioned I'd seen the ref was from Notts. Apparently my boss has played cricket with the ref, who lives near Newark and is a lifelong Forest fan! Wish I'd have boo-ed the tosser now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockholmRam Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 8 hours ago, StringerBell said: No I'm not playing devils advocate. I genuinely can't say with any degree of confidence what impact some booing at the end of one match will have on the players performance in the next match. It could be a positive influence or a negative one. He was in the Sherwood Foresters back in the 90's. Did tours of Northern Ireland and Bosnia. I think he misses the camaraderie sometimes. I've no idea if that's decent in your eyes pal - too many forest fans in their ranks maybe ?haha. I've dug deep on this and thought of instances in life where booing on mass happens. I came up with sport, music and politics. All highly emotive. I can't really think of anywhere else. There has to be an emotion filled and knock on reaction for booing to take place. Basic reflex reaction to a particular form of thought process. In my opinion quite a base reflex without much self control. I can't find coalation between finding positive reaction in booing in a more broad context. You wrote ( and I thought about it) that there is no scientific research or any other proof that this kind of reaction has either positive or negative effect. However, going through the broader context I can say that in most work places or walks of life it would be a frowned upon practice to gather on mass to boo an under performing individual or individuals... There are many obvious examples.. I give one. In addiction groups, let's say AA, if one of the group stands up and says they have fallen off the wagon then I highly doubt the rest of the group would not boo. I'm pretty sure the reaction on how to respond to individual or group failure HAS been researched quite deeply and whatever the out come of that research I'm sure booing to gain improvement was not recommended. I'm not going to pretend that AA and footballers are one and the same thing but I give the example as an obvious place of research into reaction. Ive seen booing at concerts. Due to many reasons...light and sound failure being one. Occasionally crap performance by a band. Can't say I have ever seen an improvement on a gig or band because of it. Sh$t happens...good days and bad days... I prefer to think logically and calmly as reaction to disappointment as opposed to acting like a caveman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusgb Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 6 hours ago, Mafiabob said: I really can't believe we've had 11 pages of drivel about booing.... so what.... It's football, it's fickle... Like it or lump it! Booooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 13 hours ago, StockholmRam said: I've dug deep on this and thought of instances in life where booing on mass happens. I came up with sport, music and politics. All highly emotive. I can't really think of anywhere else. There has to be an emotion filled and knock on reaction for booing to take place. Basic reflex reaction to a particular form of thought process. In my opinion quite a base reflex without much self control. I can't find coalation between finding positive reaction in booing in a more broad context. You wrote ( and I thought about it) that there is no scientific research or any other proof that this kind of reaction has either positive or negative effect. However, going through the broader context I can say that in most work places or walks of life it would be a frowned upon practice to gather on mass to boo an under performing individual or individuals... There are many obvious examples.. I give one. In addiction groups, let's say AA, if one of the group stands up and says they have fallen off the wagon then I highly doubt the rest of the group would not boo. I'm pretty sure the reaction on how to respond to individual or group failure HAS been researched quite deeply and whatever the out come of that research I'm sure booing to gain improvement was not recommended. I'm not going to pretend that AA and footballers are one and the same thing but I give the example as an obvious place of research into reaction. Ive seen booing at concerts. Due to many reasons...light and sound failure being one. Occasionally crap performance by a band. Can't say I have ever seen an improvement on a gig or band because of it. Sh$t happens...good days and bad days... I prefer to think logically and calmly as reaction to disappointment as opposed to acting like a caveman. Of course booing is base but it's not any more or less base than cheering. I don't think people usually get cheered in the workplace either. They would either receive praise or criticism. Booing, cheering, singing and making banners are what football fans are reduced to because there isn't really any other way of expressing themselves. But to only highlight the negative expressions as base whilst ignoring or participating in the positive expressions of emotion doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense from where I'm sitting. I'd suggest the lack of research into the effects of booing, or negative expressions that are made clear to others is probably down to ethics. This is why the best and most informative research is usually some barbarism that happened 100 years ago when ethical concerns aren't what they are now. Even now in the welfare state positive reinforcement is encouraged whilst negative reinforcement is discouraged but this is based solely on moral platitudes rather than evidence of effectiveness. I doubt booing a performance would improve that specific performance. But it may well make the performer more inclined to improve future performances if they've got anything about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ossieram Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 9 minutes ago, StringerBell said: Of course booing is base but it's not any more or less base than cheering. I don't think people usually get cheered in the workplace either. They would either receive praise or criticism. Booing, cheering, singing and making banners are what football fans are reduced to because there isn't really any other way of expressing themselves. But to only highlight the negative expressions as base whilst ignoring or participating in the positive expressions of emotion doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense from where I'm sitting. I'd suggest the lack of research into the effects of booing, or negative expressions that are made clear to others is probably down to ethics. This is why the best and most informative research is usually some barbarism that happened 100 years ago when ethical concerns aren't what they are now. Even now in the welfare state positive reinforcement is encouraged whilst negative reinforcement is discouraged but this is based solely on moral platitudes rather than evidence of effectiveness. I doubt booing a performance would improve that specific performance. But it may well make the performer more inclined to improve future performances if they've got anything about them. I don't think many players go onto the pitch with the aim of not performing to their best and I really can't see them thinking that they are going to be able to give even more because they will get booed if they don't. But I have seen loads of players saying how the crowd drove them on and how the backing from fans has helped them to get over difficult periods. Players know when they haven't performed and even without the booing, they can tell from a crowds reaction that they are not happy. Although we are not paid employees of the club, I still think it is our job to lift the players when things are not going right and to let them know we are behind them through the good and the bad times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 2 hours ago, ossieram said: I don't think many players go onto the pitch with the aim of not performing to their best and I really can't see them thinking that they are going to be able to give even more because they will get booed if they don't. But I have seen loads of players saying how the crowd drove them on and how the backing from fans has helped them to get over difficult periods. Players know when they haven't performed and even without the booing, they can tell from a crowds reaction that they are not happy. Although we are not paid employees of the club, I still think it is our job to lift the players when things are not going right and to let them know we are behind them through the good and the bad times. There are plenty of examples of players repudiated to have bad attitudes so I see no reason to think footballers can't just go through the motions. It's not like that to happen at Derby since Nigel Clough stamped his mark but from Clements interview it sounded like he was of the opinion that it happened on Tuesday. I've no idea though, but it certainly can happen. Both positive and negative reinforcement as well as punishers have been demonstrated to work in classical conditioning. I'm of the opinion that, again in the welfare state, people give up on punishers too easily if they don't work. Instead of giving up they should raise the stakes. I don't see why I should treat footballers any differently so if booing doesn't work perhaps electrocution will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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