Self-driving cars

[Wolfie]

I enjoy driving, so I'm always going to be a bit of luddite when it comes to technology taking over. Even an automatic gearbox is a bit of a stretch for me, though I do like my automatic lights/wipers and reversing camera. I notice Tesla are in the news today due to their autopilot system "driving dangerously":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34603364

Videos posted online appear to show Tesla's new self-drive mode causing its cars to drive dangerously and speed.

One appears to show a car suddenly swerving off the road after exiting the motorway in the US city of Portland.

Another appears to show a Model S Tesla swerving towards an oncoming vehicle.

Autopilot takes over driving functions such as steering and changing lane.

But Telsa said: "The driver cannot abdicate responsibility for driving."

It said: "The latest autopilot release is a hands-on experience to give drivers more confidence behind the wheel, increase their safety on the road and make motorway driving more enjoyable."

But one Miami driver said his car had sped up to 75mph (120km/h) in a 60mph zone, resulting in it being pulled over by the Florida Highway Patrol, and posted pictures of the tickets he had been issued.

At the time of its release, Tesla chief executive Elon Musk said autopilot was still in test mode.

"The software is very new," he said.

"We're being especially cautious at this early stage, so we're advising drivers to keep their hands on the wheel just in case."

The notes accompanying the software update also stated it was suitable only for motorway driving.

 

If "The driver cannot abdicate responsibility for driving" then what is the point?. If you've got to have your hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals and be ready to take over very quickly in case the system decides to speed up dangerously or swerve off the road, then you might as well be driving the thing. It would be more stressful trying to second guess what the car is going to do. How can the car anticipate what's going on 5 or 6 cars in front on a motorway like a human can?. It could quite easily decide to accelerate when a human would see brake lights going on further ahead in the traffic.

I know it's in the early days but the area is going to be fraught with difficulties once the insurance claims start coming in and Tesla/Google say it's nothing to do with them because the driver has ultimate responsibility.

[Shuff264]

It's a good point but automated cars don't have to be perfect, they just have to be better than humans. Theres around 400,000 murders a year, there's also around 1.2 million deaths related to vehicles. 

I love driving and would be a slow adopter but it seems inevitable, especially when you consider the money businesses can save not employing drivers  

[Stive Pesley]

You could argue that anyone using public transport has already made the leap of trust to letting another consciousness direct their travel and be responsible for their safety.

In fact every flight we take is essentially a driverless vehicle for the most part

I'm with Shuff - it will happen and it will be safer than how us idiot humans behave in our cars

[Wolfie]

You could argue that anyone using public transport has already made the leap of trust to letting another consciousness direct their travel and be responsible for their safety.

In fact every flight we take is essentially a driverless vehicle for the most part

I'm with Shuff - it will happen and it will be safer than how us idiot humans behave in our cars

It's not the same, though.

If a bus was driven poorly and killed some pedestrians, would you arrest and sue the passengers for it?. With the cars, you're a passenger but you've got to be ready and alert to take over instantly and it's your fault if it goes tits up.

I agree it will happen & it could well be safer in the long run. It's the natural progression of innovation in the industry. There are going to be alot of legal hurdles to jump over first, though.

[Srg]

It's not the same, though.

If a bus was driven poorly and killed some pedestrians, would you arrest and sue the passengers for it?. With the cars, you're a passenger but you've got to be ready and alert to take over instantly and it's your fault if it goes tits up.

I agree it will happen & it could well be safer in the long run. It's the natural progression of innovation in the industry. There are going to be alot of legal hurdles to jump over first, though.

Turn everywhere into life size scalextric

[Stive Pesley]

You can see where this is going.

 

And where we're going - WE WON'T NEED ROADS!

Damn - a day late.

 

 

OR AM I?????

[eddie]

You can see where this is going.

 

And where we're going - WE WON'T NEED ROADS!

Damn - a day late.

 

 

OR AM I?????

ONE POINT TWENNYONE JIGGERWATTS!!!!

 

[Carl Sagan]

In terms of the insurance, it's considered fine because there's a limit on it, and once that's been quantified it's built into the business model.

Both Google and Tesla consider their cars (rightly) safer than any human-driven car on the roads. In fact where they have problems is that they obey the law, which can make driving in cities difficult!

[jono]

It's not the same, though.

If a bus was driven poorly and killed some pedestrians, would you arrest and sue the passengers for it?. With the cars, you're a passenger but you've got to be ready and alert to take over instantly and it's your fault if it goes tits up.

I agree it will happen & it could well be safer in the long run. It's the natural progression of innovation in the industry. There are going to be alot of legal hurdles to jump over first, though.

can you imagine if an accident happens .. None driver sues automatic car maker who then says owner didn't have latest software update .. There will be some serious trade for lawyers and judges. But it has to come .. My great Gradfather had the horses he used to pull his delivery carts sequestered by the Army in 1914 .. The only way he could continue do his business was to buy a Model T truck (made in Trafford Park Manchester ) just 100 years ago - one long life .... and where are we now ? Amazing 

[GeneralRam]

It's a good point but automated cars don't have to be perfect, they just have to be better than humans. Theres around 400,000 murders a year, there's also around 1.2 million deaths related to vehicles. 

I love driving and would be a slow adopter but it seems inevitable, especially when you consider the money businesses can save not employing drivers  

Automation in general is a scary concept as it'll make nearly all jobs are going to be obsolete. The first industrial revolution got rid of manual human labour but the when automation arrives it'll replace human decisions (and do a better job at it!) and we won't have a use working anymore.

[alexxxxx]

self-driving cars are interesting but they won't solve problems of congestion or too many cars on the road.

[Joe.]

We have autosteer on all of our tractors, it works fantastically well in terms of accuracy of the steering and that it can control the speed and functions of the tractor its self, but the biggest issue the cars are going to face is how well do tthey cope when you lose GPS because the tractors just carry on in a straight line which wouldn't be ideal on the road

[Oxram]

self-driving cars are interesting but they won't solve problems of congestion or too many cars on the road.

The key thing with the automation of vehicles is that we can eliminate the issue of reacting to other cars.

A traffic jam is currently often caused by cars stopping or slowing down as a result of other cars. If each car is talking to the other then they can actually drive in a manner considered completely insane by today's standards.

Imagine a crossroads you don't have to stop at. The cars all know where each other are and adjust speed to weave between perfectly. This already happens in display routines because knowing what everyone else is doing makes the task so much easier. 

This period of change is a lot like when the first computers were being implemented into daily life. The first stage is getting people on board, then proving the job can be automated, then linking each machine together into an extremely powerful team capable of achieving something completely unimaginable in the old manual world.

There are obviously bigger issues this time and there will need to be a date where all cars on the road are 'live', either new or retro fitted in the case of classic cars. It will be a long period of change.

[Animal is a Ram]

Cars will only become fully autonomous when all cars are autonomous. 

Self-driving cars will not be able to predict humans.. hell, humans can't predict other humans!

There's also the point that was made on an episode of Top Gear (albeit slightly childish) - your car will kill you if the alternative is killing others, due to the way it will take the best course of action..

[alexxxxx]

The key thing with the automation of vehicles is that we can eliminate the issue of reacting to other cars.

A traffic jam is currently often caused by cars stopping or slowing down as a result of other cars. If each car is talking to the other then they can actually drive in a manner considered completely insane by today's standards.

Imagine a crossroads you don't have to stop at. The cars all know where each other are and adjust speed to weave between perfectly. This already happens in display routines because knowing what everyone else is doing makes the task so much easier. 

This period of change is a lot like when the first computers were being implemented into daily life. The first stage is getting people on board, then proving the job can be automated, then linking each machine together into an extremely powerful team capable of achieving something completely unimaginable in the old manual world.

There are obviously bigger issues this time and there will need to be a date where all cars on the road are 'live', either new or retro fitted in the case of classic cars. It will be a long period of change.

you can essentially increase the density of vehicles in the flow and keep it stable, IF all (or even some) cars were talking to each other you can indeed increase the flow, however the benefits to this are really only limited to motorway driving (where delays are mostly caused by the speed/flow relationship and turbulence in the flow caused by inconsistent driving). In urban environments, you have delays based largely on demand for particular movements and turns at junctions, coupled with the requirements for pedestrian movements. These could be improved by automation, but there are limits to its effectiveness.

Maybe I have a dinosaur's mindset, but i feel that some of the stuff released is very pie-in-the-sky.

[Carl Sagan]

An interesting consequence of self-driving cars is that they have to be programmed to kill!

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/542626/why-self-driving-cars-must-be-programmed-to-kill/

 

[Animal is a Ram]

10 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

An interesting consequence of self-driving cars is that they have to be programmed to kill!

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/542626/why-self-driving-cars-must-be-programmed-to-kill/

 

Oi! I said it first! 

But that link explains it better than I could..

[Carl Sagan]

43 minutes ago, AnimalisaRam said:

Oi! I said it first! 

But that link explains it better than I could..

Missed it sorry. It was just a trial post to see if the forum was working again!

But it is interesting to have to program in algorithms that will make these decisions. We already have driverless trains in London (on the DLR) so in practice I presume it's less of a problem than it actually sounds. Or it will be until a driverless car heads over a cliff, killing its passenger(s) in the mistaken belief that the chimpanzees on the road in front of it were people. Or was that the right decision anyway?

[TigerTedd]

There's a point. Assuming their aren't many chimpanzees on the road in England, you'd be talking about driving in a foreign country. If there is one cut off point in, say, 50 years time, where all cars must unilaterally be automatic, what happens when foreigners come here, or we go abroad to a country that has not yet adopted the technology. If we could hire a standard car, would we even know how to drive it. 

Itd be like hiring a scooter now. Doesn't this make a novel change? Aargh, a tree!!

[Wolfie]

9 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

There's a point. Assuming their aren't many chimpanzees on the road in England, you'd be talking about driving in a foreign country. If there is one cut off point in, say, 50 years time, where all cars must unilaterally be automatic, what happens when foreigners come here, or we go abroad to a country that has not yet adopted the technology. If we could hire a standard car, would we even know how to drive it. 

Itd be like hiring a scooter now. Doesn't this make a novel change? Aargh, a tree!!

Not to mention all the tractors & industrial HGV's on the road. Would they have to be automatic as well or just have GPS trackers on them, so the automatic cars could see them?.