Jake Buxton - Hero AND Legend

[Dimmu]

Well, Keogh is international and Bucko is better than him...

[Duracell]

He is doing well, fulfilling his role within the team ... as a stopper in the second tier...no arguments.

However - he lacks nous. At the top level, he would need a great deal of assistance from the point of view of reading the game, using the ball properly, and positional guile.

Defending is an art...a craft. It isn't all about gritting your teeth, beating your chest, and rolling your sleeves up.

As I say, and it is echoed time and again when Buxton's name is mentioned ... his attitude is superb I agree.

He is, in his own way, an asset ... if used correctly - which makes criticism difficult to level at the lad. More credit is due to the manager that he is aware of the parameters with Buxton, and does exactly that.

Lets please just not start painting him out as though he is international class. To do so would be patently absurd.

Well I see it completely differently.

 

For a start, nobody actually believes Bucko is international class and sometimes on these Bucko threads we see a complete sense of humour failure. Beside....why can't we have a cult hero?

 

As for Bucko's playing style, well his pace is his limitation for me, or more specifically, his turn of pace. It's not a problem at this level for precisely the opposite of what you've criticised him for. He reads the game brilliantly, and intercepts more than he tackles.

 

Using the ball properly? He is the most accurate long passer in our defence, and he's one of the best distributors of the ball that I have seen in the time I've supported Derby. I'm not sure how many more Hollywood balls he has to play out of defence, for how many consecutive seasons he has to have one of the best passing accuracies of any defender in the league, before this trait is universally recognised.

 

It's all opinions I guess, but when his "passion and grit" are seen as his main traits, I think that's an insult to his ability and maybe says that we are partially blinded by where he's come from. There is SO much more to Jake Buxton than that, and the statistics and the opinion of respected coaches back that up.

[South Derbyshire Ram]

Buxton is not one of the best central defenders in the league, in fact he's not the best at the club.

but he will give 100% all of the time and wears his heart on his sleve. just what we want players to do.

[Daz_The_Ram]

 

As for Bucko's playing style, well his pace is his limitation for me, or more specifically, his turn of pace. It's not a problem at this level for precisely the opposite of what you've criticised him for. He reads the game brilliantly, and intercepts more than he tackles.

As you say quite correctly ... 'at this level'. Where most of the play is in front of him, and the game is far easier to read. Many limited defenders can look outstanding in this league. Darren Moore for example ... a warrior, a stopper, never lost a ball in the air. Against real ability, pace, and sharpness though? Found wanting. The same will be proved of Buxton ... and I stress ... as much I like him and his attitude...it will happen.

 

Using the ball properly? He is the most accurate long passer in our defence, and he's one of the best distributors of the ball that I have seen in the time I've supported Derby. I'm not sure how many more Hollywood balls he has to play out of defence, for how many consecutive seasons he has to have one of the best passing accuracies of any defender in the league, before this trait is universally recognised.

You say he is one of the best you've seen. Did you ever see the likes of Stimac, or West? Going back a few years, Wright? How about a lad not in the bracket of greatness by any stretch, but had plenty of silk up his sleeve more recently, Leacock?

Even someone like Paul McGrath ... the best 'fighter' and 'scrapper' of them all ... who could barely even walk ... whilst stating the bleeding obvious ... had far more technical ability than Buxton. 

I'm blinded by nothing to do with his background. McGrath after all ... started in the semi pros in Ireland, and finished a legend. There is not a prayer that Buxton will achieve that much.Perhaps i am just guilty oh having seen true greats pull on a Derby shirt, perhaps i am being unfair ... that is football.

I have seen plenty like Buxton come and go. He has found his niche at this level...and fair play to him. He is a cracking servant to the club, but plenty of others would offer far more in the way of class, and the true art of defending. You will find that with games, Shotton will show himself as streets ahead of Buxton technically.

As for his so-called 'Hollywood' passes. I would expect any professional worth their salt to be able to play those kinds of passes from one end of the park to the other given time and space. They look great for the cameras, but there is nothing that special about them. It is just basic technique and accuracy. Lets see him play one when under the kosh from the opponent. He couldn't...he would panic.

Real top class players can do whatever Buxton can do with the ball, with a satsuma orange.

Again I stress, I am all for Buxton, and i am not decrying your admiration for him ... I get a lot of bad press on this forum for speaking bluntly at times...but lets not get carried away.

[uttoxram75]

I love Jake's heart and bravery but its his technical ability, reading of the game and passing skills that makes him a top championship centre back.

 

He's lovely.

[Duracell]

As you say quite correctly ... 'at this level'. Where most of the play is in front of him, and the game is far easier to read. Many limited defenders can look outstanding in this league. Darren Moore for example ... a warrior, a stopper, never lost a ball in the air. Against real ability, pace, and sharpness though? Found wanting. The same will be proved of Buxton ... and I stress ... as much I like him and his attitude...it will happen.

 

 

 

I know it's only once - but he completely marked Eto'o out of the game. He'd face better in the Prem, I understand, and obviously he's limited, but I wouldn't expect him to be totally found out. Pace is lacking, yes, but as I say in my post, in real ability he does not lack...and in sharpness, I wouldn't say so either. He reads passes and intercepts them better than any CB we've had since 2006, and better than anyone at this level. The 'at this level' argument could apply to anyone in our squad...none of them are proven in the top flight.

 

You say he is one of the best you've seen. Did you ever see the likes of Stimac, or West? Going back a few years, Wright? How about a lad not in the bracket of greatness by any stretch, but had plenty of silk up his sleeve more recently, Leacock?

He is miles better than Leacock. And no, I didn't see Stimac play and I'm too young to remember West. My statement wasn't proclaiming much, to be fair.

 

I have seen plenty like Buxton come and go. He has found his niche at this level...and fair play to him. He is a cracking servant to the club, but plenty of others would offer far more in the way of class, and the true art of defending. You will find that with games, Shotton will show himself as streets ahead of Buxton technically.

As for his so-called 'Hollywood' passes. I would expect any professional worth their salt to be able to play those kinds of passes from one end of the park to the other given time and space. They look great for the cameras, but there is nothing that special about them. It is just basic technique and accuracy. Lets see him play one when under the kosh from the opponent. He couldn't...he would panic.

Real top class players can do whatever Buxton can do with the ball, with a satsuma orange.

Again I stress, I am all for Buxton, and i am not decrying your admiration for him ... I get a lot of bad press on this forum for speaking bluntly at times...but lets not get carried away.

 

Right, so let's look at some stats.

 

Buxton's passing accuracy - 89%, the second best in the squad. That doesn't tell you much as CBs often have the simplest passes to make but as Steve Mac will tell you, the choices they make are vital to starting any attack - if either Keogh or Bucko weren't good at that, they would have been replaced by now. So I'd instantly say to you, that you are grossly underestimating Bucko's technical ability. You only give him credit for his attitude - but attitude doesn't distribute the ball from the back.

 

Let's compare that passing accuracy to other CBs in the league - Michael Mancienne, for example, who I assume you would consider "streets ahead" of Buxton on technical ability and has the best pass completion rate of any defender in the top team in the division. His plass completion rate is 88%, and that consists of a pathetic 2.8 long balls per game compared to Buxton's 7.8 - suggesting Mancienne's passes are a lot easier.

 

Now lets turn the attention to Watford, a passing side with no shortage of players with technical ability - indeed "attitude" appeared to be their downfall last season. Well, for a start, not a single player in their side has a passing accuracy as high as Buxtons, defender or otherwise. As for CBs, I doubt Gabriel Tamas is happy with his 75.2%.

 

You say any player could do his long-range passes - well most don't. As for them not coming under pressure, have you been watching how hard teams have pressed us this season? How much they're attempting to stop us playing out from the back? Buxton's having to resort to too many long balls - as are Keogh and Grant - as a result of this but the stats prove that accuracy in those passes themselves are not the issue.

 

I would be concerned with the CB pairing if we went up. But Buxton was part of the second best defence in the league since the arrival of our new manager, though our playing style is about so much more than not conceding. We play out from the back, and that simply does not happen effectively without technically astute defenders. If Buxton was really that limited, and really just about endeavour, then he would not remain our first choice centre back.

 

We'll see if Shotton replaces him for a sustained period of time. But "streets ahead" technically? You simply have to give Jake Buxton more credit than that. 

[Ambitious]

1) Sebastien Bassong

2) Ben Turner

3) Michael Turner

4) Emerson Boyce

5) Andre Bikey

6)  Gary Caldwell

7) Jack Hobbs

8) Kelvin Wilson

9) Richard Stearman

10) Jos Hooiveld

 

Based on: Interceptions - tackles - long passing accuracy - passing accuracy - dribbled by other players - blocked shots - average passes and most importantly clearances

 

Buxton's numbers (over the past season, and up to now) 44 games (discounting play-offs): Interceptions 2.1pg - tackles 1.3pg - long passing accuracy 65.7% - passing accuracy 81.5% - dribbled by other players 0.7pg - blocked shots 0.61pg - average passes 43.45pg - clearances 10.5pg

 

the only ones on the list you can compare him with, providing evidence, is Boyce and Hobbs. 

 

Buxton vs Boyce - in the same order as the list - Buxton - Boyce - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton

 

Buxton wins 7 to 1

 

Buxton vs Hobbs - in the same order as the list - Buxton - Hobbs - Buxton - Buxton - Hobbs - Hobbs - Buxton - Hobbs

 

Buxton and Hobbs draw.

 

That's all you can do properly - although based on this season. 

 

Buxton vs Bikey - in the same order as the list - Buxton - Bikey - Buxton - Buxton - Bikey - Bikey - Buxton - Buxton

 

Buxton wins 5 to 3

 

Buxton vs Michael Turner - in the same order.... - Buxton - Turner - Buxton - Buxton - Turner - Turner - Buxton - Buxton

 

Buxton wins 5 to 3

 

Buxton vs Stearman - in the, yeah you get the picture - Buxton - Stearman - Stearman - Buxton - Stearman - Stearman - Stearman - Buxton

 

Stearman wins 5 to 3

 

One stat I missed that I should have put in was aerial duels won, but as you can probably guess, Buxton has a much better rate than the competitors. 

 

It's always easy to say that we could improve, but out of the countless games I've watched over the passed two seasons, Hobbs is the only defender who has consistently impressed me as much as Buxton. 

 

As for Keogh, I may come across as biased, but statistically Buxton wins 7 to 2 (taking aerial duels into account). Keogh's two is actually in passing - surprisingly for me.

 

Unless anyone can prove otherwise, I'll stick by my verdict on Buxton. 

 

On that note, I'm going to bed. 

[Duracell]

Excellent post from Ambitious there, just a shame he likes Imagine Dragons.

[i-Ram]

1) Sebastien Bassong

2) Ben Turner

3) Michael Turner

4) Emerson Boyce

5) Andre Bikey

6) Gary Caldwell

7) Jack Hobbs

8) Kelvin Wilson

9) Richard Stearman

10) Jos Hooiveld

Based on: Interceptions - tackles - long passing accuracy - passing accuracy - dribbled by other players - blocked shots - average passes and most importantly clearances

Buxton's numbers (over the past season, and up to now) 44 games (discounting play-offs): Interceptions 2.1pg - tackles 1.3pg - long passing accuracy 65.7% - passing accuracy 81.5% - dribbled by other players 0.7pg - blocked shots 0.61pg - average passes 43.45pg - clearances 10.5pg

the only ones on the list you can compare him with, providing evidence, is Boyce and Hobbs.

Buxton vs Boyce - in the same order as the list - Buxton - Boyce - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton - Buxton

Buxton wins 7 to 1

Buxton vs Hobbs - in the same order as the list - Buxton - Hobbs - Buxton - Buxton - Hobbs - Hobbs - Buxton - Hobbs

Buxton and Hobbs draw.

That's all you can do properly - although based on this season.

Buxton vs Bikey - in the same order as the list - Buxton - Bikey - Buxton - Buxton - Bikey - Bikey - Buxton - Buxton

Buxton wins 5 to 3

Buxton vs Michael Turner - in the same order.... - Buxton - Turner - Buxton - Buxton - Turner - Turner - Buxton - Buxton

Buxton wins 5 to 3

Buxton vs Stearman - in the, yeah you get the picture - Buxton - Stearman - Stearman - Buxton - Stearman - Stearman - Stearman - Buxton

Stearman wins 5 to 3

One stat I missed that I should have put in was aerial duels won, but as you can probably guess, Buxton has a much better rate than the competitors.

It's always easy to say that we could improve, but out of the countless games I've watched over the passed two seasons, Hobbs is the only defender who has consistently impressed me as much as Buxton.

As for Keogh, I may come across as biased, but statistically Buxton wins 7 to 2 (taking aerial duels into account). Keogh's two is actually in passing - surprisingly for me.

Unless anyone can prove otherwise, I'll stick by my verdict on Buxton.

On that note, I'm going to bed.

Thank you Ambitious. This is all very useful up to a point, but UttoxRam was putting forward his "hero and legend" view on Buxton based on his on and- off field activities. Please might you let me know in due course what the 10 above do in respect of community support, promoting local businesses, charitable good deeds, etc. I cannot possibly form a comparative view on whether Buxton is a hero or indeed legend based on such a major shortfall of data.

[Ashz09]

My eyes hurt after seeing a wall of text on this page. I'll just say yes and I agree to everything lol.

[Ambitious]

If you note the stats he wins and loses.

 

You'll see he is dribbled by players more often than anyone else, although this equates to only 0.7pg - the rest were around 0.4/0.5 but he makes more interceptions than any other defender. Now, I think the difference between good and great defenders is their ability to snuff out attacks. I think that in itself proves that he reads the game better than any other defender in the division. 

[Duracell]

Exactly. This "sleeves rolled up, no-nonsense" reputation he has can only be explained by his background and appearance, as opposed to what he actually does on field. The stats back that up and prove it to be nonsense.

[Daz_The_Ram]

Duracell, Ambitious ...  I know you know your stuff lads, but now i have a headache. ;-(

What a shame that this thread has now descended into statistic soup. What a load of rubbish. Numbers can be interpreted in so many different ways.

I am pretty sure Paul Thirlwell had a decent 'pass completion percentage' or whatever when he was at Derby, that is because he kept it uber, uber simple...too simple at times ... would any of you accept that he was a top class player? ... the answer is a resounding NO.

I know enough about the game having been on the books at three professional clubs to know that it isn't a game played on paper.

Maybe as i approach my mid thirties i am becoming set in my ways ... but ... to coin a phrase ... mountains and mountains and mountains of stats have nothing to do with the 'smell of football'. That is where the modern day fan is starting to lose me.

Too much Sky Sports News for you lot...not enough time out there on the pitch.

Bucko is a great character, an asset to our dressing room, and to our team. He has his limitations, and the player himself would be the first to admit it...but rightfully, his approach to the game, and - I might add ... a willingness to improve, has endeared him to the fans.

Looking forward to seeing him get stuck in against the Red ***** on Sunday ... and keeping the most IMPORTANT statistic - ie: the Forest goals column ... to NIL.

Football is a simple game lads.

I'll leave it there. 

[blackNwhites]

Buxton obviously needs to improve his tackling.

[R@M]

 

You say he is one of the best you've seen. Did you ever see the likes of Stimac, or West? Going back a few years, Wright? How about a lad not in the bracket of greatness by any stretch, but had plenty of silk up his sleeve more recently, Leacock?

Even someone like Paul McGrath ... the best 'fighter' and 'scrapper' of them all ... who could barely even walk ... whilst stating the bleeding obvious ... had far more technical ability than Buxton. 

I did see all of the above, and you are talking about 4 world class players.....and Leacock. I'll forgive you for that one as he showed some promise but had no concentration levels and ultimately did not seem bothered. Has now found his level.

Wright, probably in the top 6 English defenders of the last 30 years. Huge tackles, dominating in the air at both ends, pace, marauding runs and excellent positional sense. BUT.... I cannot remember him having half the passing ability of Bucko.

West was awesome, before he came to Derby. Showed some of his class but made bad choices...tricks when he shouldn't and not committed.

McGrath was a complete anomaly. Read the game like no other....but had to as he couldn't run or jump.

Stimac.........DCFC deity. If we ever get a CB like that again we will be in the top 6 of the prem.

Bucko has improved a lot every single year and proved most doubters wrong. Who's to say he could not make the step up to the prem? I'd rather have him over Phil jones, does that make him international quality?

[Duracell]

Thing is though, it wasn't just numbers Daz. We gave extended interpretations of the fact and figures to back up what we're saying - and they went a long way to doing that.

 

And no. I am not sure at all that Paul Thirlwell would have had any meaningful stats to suggest he was a good player at Derby.

 

Football is a simple game, I agree, but there's no harm in having a debate. I'm not sure what more Buxton has to prove and if you haven't seen it by now, you never will - and that's fine, we've put our opinions on the table and that's what it's all about. McClaren is a respected coach who clearly rates Buxton but you could find dozens upon dozens of top coaches who wouldn't rate him at all.

 

But don't play the "I've been involved in football" card. We've all been watching this game for a long time and we're entitled to our opinions, and involvement in the game does not make your opinion any more valid than mine. There are a lot of footballers who make bad managers and bad coaches who do not know what they're talking about.

 

But apart from that, I've argued the point to the death and I respect your opinion, even if I think it's a shame you hold it.

 

Three points on Saturday will shut us all up though, eh?

[Daz_The_Ram]

People are misunderstanding me here ... I am not saying that Buxton has no right to be a fan's favorite. He is a cult hero and rightfully so ... 

As I say ... let's not get carried away. he does a job for us, and he does it very well indeed.

[Daz_The_Ram]

... and I agree Duracell ... three points is what it is all about mate. :-)

[Psycho]

From the outside I'd say Buxton is a typical no-nonsense 'ead it and kick it centre-half, a bit of a throwback to the old days. Clearly limited in ability but makes up for it in heart and determination, which the fans can relate to.

 

Not unlike our very own Stuart Pearce in his playing days, yet he gets slated on here for being a thick *******

[chewbacca]

Stats are concrete proof of facts. Opinions based on I used to be on the books of 3 clubs and condescending suggestions that not understanding the game due to not playing is poor, most people know someone who has played for somebody professionaly or youth level etc and I dont think that gives people the chance to talk down. I have watched Derby County since 1993 and I have not seen many more equally able defenders consistently than Jake Buxton, Igor Stimac and Paul Mcgrath come to mind as better. For me we have different brackets of quality defenders as such...

A.

Mark Wright

Igor Stimac

Jake Buxton

Paul Mcgrath

B.

Craig Short

Shaun Barker

Paul Williams

Jason Shackell

Etc

C.

Christian Dailly

Dean Yates

Gary Rowett

Spencer Prior

Etc

Forget his name, forget where he came from and just watch what he does on the pitch. Jake Buxton is top, top quality and a more than capable Premier League defender, no doubt.