Sam Rush ambition of the club

[ramblur]

Under FFP doesn't it have to be capital investment to be offset against loans - so it can't be in the way of loans after this season(or am I mistaken) will be interesting if they can find the funds for that.

And the grounds mortgage is due for repayment in 2015 - hope they can get a good deal on remortgaging.

I think many have misunderstood FFP,to be fair.Equity only HAS to be introduced if an FFP loss goes above a certain level (acceptable deviation).There's nothing to stop new loans being taken out to fund asset purchases (including players),but a limiting factor is that any interest charged would count against the FFP result (and in the case of players,amortisation,wages and signing on fees;agents' fees being capitalised and therefore feeding through as part of amortisation). I may be wrong,but I thought the PP loan was due for repayment in 2016?

 

The interesting thing about loan capital interest (whether paid or not) is that it has a negative impact on pre tax profits/losses.This is the starting point for the FFP calculation,after which depreciation (but not amortisation) and net youth development costs are taken out.Nowhere does it say that loan interest is excluded,and it  would be rather silly if it were,as loans are to be discouraged.Therefore,if you took our 11/12 results,which featured £626k of loan capital interest,then if the interest had truly been zero we could,for instance,have spent £626k more on players' wages and still come up with the same FFP result.Of course this is based on my interpretation of FFP,but nowhere does it state loan interest is discounted in the calculation,and as I said before,it would be rather silly if it were.Any renegotiation of the PP loan is likely to have a negative impact,as I'd be amazed if we got anything like the current 2.5% over base rate,which I think currently gives us c£450k/annum interest,although there's an additional c£0.5m of longer term debt,which may push the figure up to c £465k. 

[CornwallRam]

Ramblur

 

Yes the PPS loan is up in 2016

 

Re your mention of the Busby Babes - I think it could be argued that Beckham, Giggs, 2 x Neville, Scholes and Robbie Savage  were the last really successful 'grow your own' crop.

 

Interesting on the interest   - I checked back on an old DT article which stated in the first paragraph:

 

'And the club's accounts, published today, reveal that the debt has risen from £19.1m to £25.5m – although the difference is in the form of an interest-free loan from the owners.'

 

Later in the article their is a section of direct Glick quotation:

 

"The owners have continued to fund the club. They put in another £7m in the year ending June 2011.

 

Since then, there has been another £6m put in and much of that funding has come in loan capital from the owners but it is not third-party debt.

 

There is not an expectation of repayment"

 

So the journo believes that the loan is interest free, but Mr Glick smoothly avoids mentioning it. That was a very impressive bit of spin!

 

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Rams-reveal-pound-7-7m-loss-annual-accounts/story-15677928-detail/story.html#axzz2feC5rQ13

 

[davenportram]

Ramblur

Yes the PPS loan is up in 2016

Re your mention of the Busby Babes - I think it could be argued that Beckham, Giggs, 2 x Neville, Scholes and Robbie Savage were the last really successful 'grow your own' crop.

Interesting on the interest - I checked back on an old DT article which stated in the first paragraph:

'And the club's accounts, published today, reveal that the debt has risen from £19.1m to £25.5m – although the difference is in the form of an interest-free loan from the owners.'

Later in the article their is a section of direct Glick quotation:

"The owners have continued to fund the club. They put in another £7m in the year ending June 2011.

Since then, there has been another £6m put in and much of that funding has come in loan capital from the owners but it is not third-party debt.

There is not an expectation of repayment"

So the journo believes that the loan is interest free, but Mr Glick smoothly avoids mentioning it. That was a very impressive bit of spin!

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Rams-reveal-pound-7-7m-loss-annual-accounts/story-15677928-detail/story.html#axzz2feC5rQ13

I think it's more the quote about no expectation of repayment from Glick was interpreted by the journo as interest free as the interest free bit will have been written after the Glick quote and not put to him for comment.

[ramblur]

I think it's more the quote about no expectation of repayment from Glick was interpreted by the journo as interest free as the interest free bit will have been written after the Glick quote and not put to him for comment.

Not sure how a journo could jump from no expectation of repayment of debt to that debt being interest free.I'm sure  that at some stage Glick himself called the loans interest free,whether it be on RD or the DET.I'll have to go rummaging,though it's very hard to find archived RD stuff.

[ramblur]

Ramblur

 

Yes the PPS loan is up in 2016

 

Re your mention of the Busby Babes - I think it could be argued that Beckham, Giggs, 2 x Neville, Scholes and Robbie Savage  were the last really successful 'grow your own' crop.

 

Interesting on the interest   - I checked back on an old DT article which stated in the first paragraph:

 

'And the club's accounts, published today, reveal that the debt has risen from £19.1m to £25.5m – although the difference is in the form of an interest-free loan from the owners.'

 

Later in the article their is a section of direct Glick quotation:

 

"The owners have continued to fund the club. They put in another £7m in the year ending June 2011.

 

Since then, there has been another £6m put in and much of that funding has come in loan capital from the owners but it is not third-party debt.

 

There is not an expectation of repayment"

 

So the journo believes that the loan is interest free, but Mr Glick smoothly avoids mentioning it. That was a very impressive bit of spin!

 

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Rams-reveal-pound-7-7m-loss-annual-accounts/story-15677928-detail/story.html#axzz2feC5rQ13

 

Yeh,I thought of that but forgot about the Nevilles and you know who!

 

I remember at the time pointing out that "there is" is the present tense,so what about 'will there be sometime in the future'?

[Leicester Ram]

That text is class.

 

If Neil Warnock was named Derby manager I'd be in absolute tears - enough for me to stop going 

 

Can you imagine O'Neil 

 

Moan about Clough being negative...

[ramblur]

A quick search of DET stuff hasn't thrown up any quote by Glick re interest free loans,so I'll have to withdraw that comment (although I can't find a DET report on the 11/12 accounts,nor can I find any archived RD stuff).

[Martyn]

Not sure how a journo could jump from no expectation of repayment of debt to that debt being interest free.I'm sure  that at some stage Glick himself called the loans interest free,whether it be on RD or the DET.I'll have to go rummaging,though it's very hard to find archived RD stuff.

 

I think you give Journos too much credit! 

[ramblur]

I think you give Journos too much credit! 

Possibly right,though I wouldn't want to be sued by one!

 

I'd dearly love to be able to access a RD interview with Glick re the 10/11 accounts.I seem to remember that for the 9/10 accounts the DET appeared to run an abridged version of the things he'd said during a RD interview. 

[Martyn]

Possibly right,though I wouldn't want to be sued by one!

 

I'd dearly love to be able to access a RD interview with Glick re the 10/11 accounts.I seem to remember that for the 9/10 accounts the DET appeared to run an abridged version of the things he'd said during a RD interview. 

 

If there's a BBC news article about them with some audio attached there's a slim chance it may still be there.

 

I'll have a quick hunt...

[ramblur]

If there's a BBC news article about them with some audio attached there's a slim chance it may still be there.

 

I'll have a quick hunt...

Thanks Martyn-you obviously had as much joy as me.

 

Just like to take this opportunity to expand on an earlier post for the benefit of those who don't look at any of the accounts.When I said DCFC interest was on the rise,here are the figures:-

 

9/10 £773k, 10/11 £1.008m, 11/12 £1.398m.

 

Now I said earlier that the PP interest has been fairly static at c£450k (due to a static base rate),so try first deducting this from the 3 figures above.Casting loan capital aside for the moment,the only other 'candidate' is the revolving loan,which by it's very nature will involve fluctuating balances and therefore fluctuating annual interest charges.Looking at 11/12,is anyone going to try to convince me that the revolving loan threw up over £900k of interest charges in 11/12?

 

If you were to go back to my earlier post and deduct the annual Gellaw  interest receivable figures (as appropriate) from the DCFC figures above (along with the £450k),then what you are likely to have left will be the annual revolving loan interest figures,which I think you'd find look more realistic (I'll ignore the relatively small interest on the additional c£0.5m of long term debt).Now the sharper ones among you might say 'hang on,wasn't the revolving loan paid down in 11/12'.The answer is yes,but we don't know at what stage.There's deductive evidence to suggest it was in the last quarter,and nothing to suggest it wasn't the last week.

 

For DCFC account followers,the final nail comes in Note 27 attached to the 9/10 accounts "Related Party Transactions" which states that loan interest charges of £152,013 payable to GSE Llc (the c£1.7m loan that started it all off) were incurred and that this amount remained outstanding at the year end (and therefore accrued). Now look at the 9/10 figure I gave from Gellaw.

 

By the way,this is the only reference I can find in the DCFC accounts to interest in relation to loan capital,so any claim made that the accounts state these loans to be interest free is false (unless I'm going blind).

[Martyn]

Thanks Martyn-you obviously had as much joy as me.

 

Sorry, yeah the BBC seem to try make it as hard as possible to find old news stories.  Even Google came up with nothing.

[-JW-]

Bump.

[networker1884]

Can't believe I used to like this guy...

[Cardifframs]

Oh well,no hiding places,we will see exactly,the ambition of the club now.

[sheeponacid]

Can't believe I used to like this guy...

Just another Glick wrapped up in a different shitty wrapper, I'm afraid...spin, spin, **** & spin..

[Gritstone Ram]

If this club had ambition why didn't clough see it? I mean money wise?

[BondJovi]

If this club had ambition why didn't clough see it? I mean money wise?

 

I do not know and I don't think anyone does. Maybe they didn't trust him? Maybe he had the funds but chose not to use them. If they didn't trust him, why not sack him in the summer? I am sure we shall find out soon...

[Spanish]

Although I like NC I have for some time been confused as to the aims of the owners . There seemed little point to their involvement unless it was just too small to worry about. Now I think they were happy for a slow and justified improvement to a strong club that would make the transition to the prem and stay. This week they have seen some poor results, derby falling off the pace and NC publicly saying he was happy. Although I regret that NC wasn't the guy to take us forward I am pleased to see that there is some ambition left in my club. As someone said earlier, no hiding place now

[SSD]

I wonder if he'll do that meet and greet in our local pubs again? I'm sure he'll get more backlash and maybe a few pints over him for being a 2 faced corporate toss pot.