gcdcfc28 Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Barks will return, ain't a doubt in my mind about that. His got the squad number back off Buxton, last season I don't think he was even allocated one. If the coaching staff reckon he won't return and are telling people, they aren't very good for moral are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalley Ram Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I know this thread is about Buxton not being "up to it" but I have to say that yesterday Keogh put us in danger with ropey passing far too many times, i lost count after a while. I can live with the odd mistake, hey it's the second division after all, but Keogh was imo an absolute liability at times yesterday. I remember thinking this far too often last year as well. Now don't get me wrong Keogh can be, and often is, a real quality player but on other days he seems less than average and he is sooooo right footed it is frightening. He aint the answer i'm afraid and I know Buxton isn't either but at least he is consistent and rarely puts us in anywhere as much danger as Keogh. Not sure I understand all this "love" for Keogh and disparagement of Buxton - is it because the latter is a local lad come from obscurity signed out of the Conference, hey I give up but I know who I rate out of the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 For the brighton game for example looking again at the below, imo You can see our CBs in no mans land, they are behind the brighton player when the ball comes in, keough should have been closer but he is running back to mark the CF who is free, Buxton is also nowhere, if he is in front of the player in the middle he can cut the cross out from there. Freeman is marking a player, and as you say lets him go, not sure why. But I'm no Alan Hansen, and we could argue about this for ever, which will get boring so we will have to disagree on this, just IMO we had this problem last year, and we don't appear to have learnt from it, time will tell I suppose. It doesn't surprise me that our players were in no-man's land given the quick turnaround from us being in a position of comfortable possession to us being on the backfoot after the needlessly panicked pass from Keogh and a hoof by Grant. The rest of our defence were readying themselves to support an attack (and Buxton headed back from midfield after winning the ball), I guess it's a concentration issue in part too and hopefully a lesson learned, but there was no danger from the opposition and no urgent need to think about their defending when we had the ball about 30 yards out with passing options. Two crap passes and everything turned around, in the space of about 4 seconds and 5 touches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
networker1884 Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I've just remembered the actim index from last season. You got it wrong, it's not Buxton that's the top 5 defender, it's Keogh. In fact according to the actim index he was the 3rd best centre back... so duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maydrakin Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 For me, Buxton's great asset is consistency. You get pretty much the same level of performance week in/week out. His problem is that good forwards exploit his weaknesses - Nugent was getting far too much space by drifting wide or deep, with Buxton realising he needed to maintain shape. The problem was this gave Leicester an outlet when pushing up. Give him the ball and he'll move it on nicely and you'd back him on 50-50 challenges or when he's tight on his man. Keogh has far more class than Buxton will ever have, BUT you can pretty much guarantee he will make an error at some point during the game, which at this level he will get away with some of the time. A good example would be how easily turned he was by Best when he should have remained goal-side of his man, but jumped in trying to nick the ball away. My analysis is Keogh would benefit and look much improved with a better partner, but not sure that Buxton would - neither instil me with confidence at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Its not all about who's marking players, its also about positional play, if your CB is not there in the first place it's difficult to mark players and others have to cover, not as obvious to see. Not that i said all the goals were down to the CB's, just that we have a weakness is this area that teams have exploited this and last season. Set pieces are all about Marking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 This thread now has six pages, which indicates Buxton is a major concern to the team. I find that tough to swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I'd love to know how much the posters who have highlighted the central defensive partnerships they believe are better than ours, have actually seen the players they are rating as better. <facepalm> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Woodgate is a class act still... I have a vehement hatred of the type of player Morgan is (big lunk at the back whose main attribute is size) but he's very good Scott Dann has the ability to play above this level still The red dogs have Wilson and Hobbs who are both good and I still rate Collins Dunne Hill and Onouha from QPR My mate complains about them (Bolton fan) but I'd have either Knight or Wheater Matt Upson still has something about him Caldwell and Boyce at Wigan And yeh, have seen those players play... only once or twice for for full games for some admittedly... but that's quite a list of CBs I'd have ahead of Keogh OR Bucko... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Woodgate is a class act still... I have a vehement hatred of the type of player Morgan is (big lunk at the back whose main attribute is size) but he's very good Scott Dann has the ability to play above this level still The red dogs have Wilson and Hobbs who are both good and I still rate Collins Dunne Hill and Onouha from QPR My mate complains about them (Bolton fan) but I'd have either Knight or Wheater Matt Upson still has something about him Caldwell and Boyce at Wigan And yeh, have seen those players play... only once or twice for for full games for some admittedly... but that's quite a list of CBs I'd have ahead of Keogh OR Bucko... Possibly a case of "the grass is greener". You are preferring other centre backs based on seeing them 1 or 2 times. Any professional club will watch a player several times with multiple people concentrating solely on that player before making a decision. I am not a big fan of Keogh but I do accept that he is unlikely to play as badly as he did against Leicester again this season. They are a very uncomfortable team to play against, extremely physical and energetic in closing down. I should listen to your Bolton mate who has no doubt seen Knight and Wheater several times. Morgan's main attribute is size - football doesn't quite work like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 He is a top 5 centre back. The clough hater cliche of the summer proved wrong after two games. Unlucky not_ram Oh dear, looks like Jake is no longer a top 6 defender. Well at, least until the weekend anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgford Ram Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Keogh would perform better with a better CB partner, he is currently playing to a level below his ability. Buxton, is seemingly playing to his full ability but it is still not good enough for this level. If we were to bring someone in like Bramble, you would see a new Keogh overnight, the same if Barker came back at the same level prior to his injury. To go into the season with Buxton as first and only choice was neglect, whether it be on the part of the board or Clough. It is not good enough and could cost us a chance at the play offs, could cause us to lose our better players and it isn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Keogh would perform better with a better CB partner, he is currently playing to a level below his ability. Buxton, is seemingly playing to his full ability but it is still not good enough for this level. If we were to bring someone in like Bramble, you would see a new Keogh overnight, the same if Barker came back at the same level prior to his injury. To go into the season with Buxton as first and only choice was neglect, whether it be on the part of the board or Clough. It is not good enough and could cost us a chance at the play offs, could cause us to lose our better players and it isn't good enough. Which goals would you say are Buxton's fault this season? There have only been three so it shouldn't take too long to think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Keogh would perform better with a better CB partner, he is currently playing to a level below his ability. Buxton, is seemingly playing to his full ability but it is still not good enough for this level. If we were to bring someone in like Bramble, you would see a new Keogh overnight, the same if Barker came back at the same level prior to his injury. To go into the season with Buxton as first and only choice was neglect, whether it be on the part of the board or Clough. It is not good enough and could cost us a chance at the play offs, could cause us to lose our better players and it isn't good enough. For clarity, are you saying Keogh is at a level below his ability due to Buxton? So when he gives the ball away, misses headers and is out of position (even when Buxton is marking someone), that's down to Buxton? Maybe it's just that he's in a bad spot of form. Mental I know, but could be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Keogh would perform better with a better CB partner, he is currently playing to a level below his ability. Buxton, is seemingly playing to his full ability but it is still not good enough for this level. If we were to bring someone in like Bramble, you would see a new Keogh overnight, the same if Barker came back at the same level prior to his injury. To go into the season with Buxton as first and only choice was neglect, whether it be on the part of the board or Clough. It is not good enough and could cost us a chance at the play offs, could cause us to lose our better players and it isn't good enough. This is a new one. Heard lots of reasons why people think Buxton isn't good enough, but he's making Keogh play worse than him? So we need to replace Buxton to stop Keogh from being worse than him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuitYourJibbaJivin Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 For clarity, are you saying Keogh is at a level below his ability due to Buxton? So when he gives the ball away, misses headers and is out of position (even when Buxton is marking someone), that's down to Buxton? Maybe it's just that he's in a bad spot of form. Mental I know, but could be right. Wait........are you talking sense here? How dare you do that on this board! Fact of the matter is, if Buxton wasn't playing yesterday Martin would have scored a hat-trick. Yes that comment makes just as much sense as this thread being brought up every time we concede or lose and all the blame being laid solely at Jake Buxtons door. We lost due to an own goal yet it all boils down to Jake Buxton not being good enough?! I give up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Although I don't really wish to harp on about Shackell because there's nothing to be done about it, but you only have to look at his performance in his one season here when he was paired with all of Buxton, O'Brien, Barker, Naylor and Brayford to see the difference between him and Keogh - each of those players performed well alongside him and his own performances remained consistent. He did make individual mistakes, but none of them were ever blamed on his partner yet some people want to make excuses for Keogh, who's really had one consistent partner throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMuffin Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 He isn't good enough. Derby will finish in a respectable top 6 position one day, Buxton won't be here when it happens. Keogh, maybe. Just a prediction before anyone gets personally offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 If we were to bring someone in like Bramble, you would see a new Keogh overnight, the same if Barker came back at the same level prior to his injury. My Nan would be better than Bramble... You have automatically voided your own argument by choosing a defender who is AWFUL as an example... Possibly a case of "the grass is greener". You are preferring other centre backs based on seeing them 1 or 2 times. Any professional club will watch a player several times with multiple people concentrating solely on that player before making a decision. I am not a big fan of Keogh but I do accept that he is unlikely to play as badly as he did against Leicester again this season. They are a very uncomfortable team to play against, extremely physical and energetic in closing down. I should listen to your Bolton mate who has no doubt seen Knight and Wheater several times. Morgan's main attribute is size - football doesn't quite work like that. Maybe... But to clarify I meant 1/2 times in the last year... Not ever... And my mate who's a Bolton fan isn't the most positive guy in the world... He counts Eagles as "An average championship midefielder"... Which I find odd since he'd dance into our team (RW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 On a slight tangent, surely it makes more sense to look at which teams actually had a better defence than us last season, rather than trying to guess how they'll do this season? The best defences last season were: Brighton, Cardiff, Leicester, Hull, Watford, Charlton/Forest (joint). Not surprisngly 5 of these finished in the top 6. Of the 11 teams who conceded less than Derby, 8 finished above us (exceptions: Sheff Weds/Burnley/Ipswich) Of the 12 teams who conceded the same or more than Derby, only 1 finished above us - Crystal Palace, the remaining 'top 6' defence. So... you can make top 6 with a defence worse than ours, but only if you've got a 30 goal striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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