Buxton is not a top 6 centre back

[Mafiabob]

It's easy to say that, but nobody can name many stand out defenders at this level. Realistically, you should be able to name 12 central defenders who you'd rather have (two per top six team) if you are convinced that Buxton, or Keogh aren't as good as you'd like.

You also have to remember (whichever poster mentioned it) that we had a player who had technique, composure and quality etc, and Clough hated him cos he never got booked. Albrechtsen had everything you would associate with being a top defender, but it didn't/doesn't work at THIS level.

I can name Wes Morgan, Moore and De laet as better than our back four, Morgan gets a lot of stick as a lump of lard, but he's bloody good at why he does and is brilliant at the basics, strong and isn't fancy, a better version of Buxton if you will, that Moore lad was superb yesterday, hardly missed a thing, and De Laet looked pretty classy to me,

[Mostyn6]

I can name Wes Morgan, Moore and De laet as better than our back four, Morgan gets a lot of stick as a lump of lard, but he's bloody good at why he does and is brilliant at the basics, strong and isn't fancy, a better version of Buxton if you will, that Moore lad was superb yesterday, hardly missed a thing, and De Laet looked pretty classy to me,

 

 

well De Laet played right back yesterday and you already named 2 players from one team. If you're saying we don't have top six defenders, you have to name 6 pairs of better defenders than Derby's.

[Mafiabob]

well De Laet played right back yesterday and you already named 2 players from one team. If you're saying we don't have top six defenders, you have to name 6 pairs of better defenders than Derby's.

Misread the top part of the post, apologies, I couldn't as I've not seen them all play, just going on the games I've seen and Leicesters Centre Halves were much better than ours, I think the actual point is for Derbys point of view is that Buxton and keogh are safe even if they suffer a serious bout of poor form for give six games as I don't believe for one second (IMO) that Cloughy will ever drop them. Obviously that's my opinion. I can't think of anything else.

[Uptherams]

Absolutely nothing wrong with Buxtons reading of the game, it has to be good to make up for his lack of speed.

I thought Morgan was lucky to stay on the pitch yesterday, he consistently kept on going through the back of Martin.

I agree. Buxton is a massively under-rated defender. He almost scored a header again yesterday, his ability to win headers in both boxes and outside ours should be a shock considering his height. If he keeps playing the way he has been I will vote him player of the year because he deserves credit. Yesterday he played the same pass to Freeman about 6 or 7 times. He slightly over hit it (all except one I think), but they were fantastic passes and if Freeman could have reached them we would have caught out their defense. 

[rams71]

People on here talking like Buxton is Beckenbaur or Baresi

He's an below average player playing in an average team

[Leicester Ram]

People on here talking like Buxton is Beckenbaur or Baresi

He's an below average player playing in an average team

 

"An below average player"?  ^_^

 

He's been our best defender for three games in a row, in which we've played two teams who made the play-offs last year and the team with the best striker in the league. He's a good Championship CB now, you're still in 2009 pal.

[rams71]

Maybe i am but i dont rate him,never have never will

[Leicester Ram]

Maybe i am but i dont rate him,never have never will

 

So a Spurs fan who thought Bale was a useless flop in 09 should still think he's **** now?

[Ambitious]

Centre back pairings from yesterday, debate;

 

Tom Lees and Jason Pearce
Kamil Zayatte and Ant Gardner

Dorian Dervite and Michael Morrison

Tom Kennedy, Jean-Yves Mvoto and Scott Wiseman

Hayden Mullins, Dan Burn and Paul Robinson

Gordon Greer and Matt Upson

James Perch and Leon Barnett
Steve Cook and Elliott Ward

Kevin Long and Jason Shackell

Dan Seaborne and Alan Tate

Wes Morgan and Liam Moore

Jonathan Woodgate and Rhys Williams

Craig Cathcart and Kirk Broadfoot

Dan Shittu and Mark Beevers

Peter Clarke, Ant Gerrard and Joel Lynch

Kelvin Wilson and Jack Hobbs

Zat Knight and David Wheater

Richard Dunne and Nedum Onuoha

Luke Chambers and Tommy Smith

Sean Morrison and Alex Pearce

Gabriele Angella, Lloyd Doyley and Joel Ekstrand

 

Where does the pairing of Richard Keogh, and Jake Buxton lie inbetween all that? 

[Guest]

The problem for me with Buxton is that he is often behind play, strikers are able to lay off and turn him quite easily thus taking him out of the back 4. He's fine when it comes to having the ball in front of him, but watching him yesterday he was often a few yards behind play which means its not as obvious to see his weaknesses as when someone makes a silly mistake.

All about opionions of course, but I tend to think strikers like playing against him because he hasn't got the mobility of other CB's, and this makes it slightly easier to find space. Keough had a shocker, often by making mistakes by trying to make things happen, no excuse and I've not seen him play that poorly for a while, three goals conceded all from crosses indicate that we have a weakness in this area.

[sage]

The problem for me with Buxton is that he is often behind play, strikers are able to lay off and turn him quite easily thus taking him out of the back 4. He's fine when it comes to having the ball in front of him, but watching him yesterday he was often a few yards behind play which means its not as obvious to see his weaknesses as when someone makes a silly mistake.

All about opionions of course, but I tend to think strikers like playing against him because he hasn't got the mobility of other CB's, and this makes it slightly easier to find space. Keough had a shocker, often by making mistakes by trying to make things happen, no excuse and I've not seen him play that poorly for a while, three goals conceded all from crosses indicate that we have a weakness in this area.

Hendrick was marking King at a set piece yesterday.

 

Freeman was marking Ulloa at Brighton.

 

Eustace was 'marking' Best against Blackburn.

 

Sack the CB's.

[Guest]

Hendrick was marking King at a set piece yesterday.

 

Freeman was marking Ulloa at Brighton.

 

Eustace was 'marking' Best against Blackburn.

 

Sack the CB's.

Its not all about who's marking players, its also about positional play, if your CB is not there in the first place it's difficult to mark players and others have to cover, not as obvious to see.

Not that i said all the goals were down to the CB's, just that we have a weakness is this area that teams have exploited this and last season.

[Mafiabob]

Its not all about who's marking players, its also about positional play, if your CB is not there in the first place it's difficult to mark players and others have to cover, not as obvious to see.

Not that i said all the goals were down to the CB's, just that we have a weakness is this area that teams have exploited this and last season.

SPOT ON

[G STAR RAM]

Maybe i am but i dont rate him,never have never will

The fact that you admit you are never going to rate him no matter what kind of makes your opinion pretty irrelevant.

[Stedcfc]

I think Buxton has outplayed Keogh in every game this season so far. I don't really think theres much between them, obviously Keogh is younger and probably has more potential.

 

I think the major issue is a lack of competition for both players. They aren't under any pressure to keep their places and potentially wouldnt really be with O'Brien back. Barker is obviously a huge question mark and can't see why we arent getting an extra centre back in.

 

Chris Martin won't look forward to playing against Wes Morgan again this season and was bullied by him. I imagine strikers don't really fear our defence.

 

If we manage to get another player out the door we should really be buying another centre back. It would be so frustrating to build a team thats in with a good chance of getting in the play offs to miss out by not getting the final piece in the jigsaw. I wonder whether theres an element of not getting somebody in as it may be a hit to Shaun Barkers morale.

 

Maybe Barker is closer to being back than we think and thats why Clough isnt getting somebody in?

[sage]

Its not all about who's marking players, its also about positional play, if your CB is not there in the first place it's difficult to mark players and others have to cover, not as obvious to see.

Not that i said all the goals were down to the CB's, just that we have a weakness is this area that teams have exploited this and last season.

I would have thought you could absolve both CB's from blame for yesterdays goal as Hendrick was marking King and Coutts cleared it against Grant. Well certainly post the allocation of a corner.

 

Against Brighton we had 3 defenders against two forwards for a free cross from the right. The left CB (Buxton) goes near post, the right CB (Keogh) marks the first forward (Buckley) and the RB (Freeman) picks up the second forward (Ulloa). All perfectly standard defending. However Freeman left the admittedly larger Ulloa to a free header to bizarrely try to block the header, 

 

Against Blackburn another cross from the right from a partially cleared corner meant DCM (Eustace) was still marking their CF (Best) but also had to cover the cross at the near post which he did by moving 3 yards in front of Best. the next CB (Keogh) was marking their CB (Dann) so had stay with him or move to Best. Best dropped a yard further away from goal as good CF's do. Eustace could have gone a yard less far and maybe Keogh could have told him that, but would have had little time.

 

Our main problem is we are generally smaller than the average Championship team and from set plays or secondary attacks from set plays, someone will be marking someone bigger than them or at least better in the air. A consequence of playing pretty football. Therefore we will need to outscore teams. In 4 games we have scored 4 and conceded 3. I am more concerned that we have only scored 4 in 4, not that we have conceded 3 in 4. When you lose 1-0 at home. The 0 is more of a concern than the 1 in my opinion. Obviously if Sammon was playing, more would have been made of this no doubt.  

[CumbrianRam]

Centre back pairings from yesterday, debate;

 

Tom Lees and Jason Pearce

Kamil Zayatte and Ant Gardner

Dorian Dervite and Michael Morrison

Tom Kennedy, Jean-Yves Mvoto and Scott Wiseman

Hayden Mullins, Dan Burn and Paul Robinson

Gordon Greer and Matt Upson

James Perch and Leon Barnett

Steve Cook and Elliott Ward

Kevin Long and Jason Shackell

Dan Seaborne and Alan Tate

Wes Morgan and Liam Moore

Jonathan Woodgate and Rhys Williams

Craig Cathcart and Kirk Broadfoot

Dan Shittu and Mark Beevers

Peter Clarke, Ant Gerrard and Joel Lynch

Kelvin Wilson and Jack Hobbs

Zat Knight and David Wheater

Richard Dunne and Nedum Onuoha

Luke Chambers and Tommy Smith

Sean Morrison and Alex Pearce

Gabriele Angella, Lloyd Doyley and Joel Ekstrand

 

Where does the pairing of Richard Keogh, and Jake Buxton lie inbetween all that? 

The one's in bold I rate ahead of Keogh and Buxton, the ones in italics are on a similar level and the others I rate below.

[Guest]

I would have thought you could absolve both CB's from blame for yesterdays goal as Hendrick was marking King and Coutts cleared it against Grant. Well certainly post the allocation of a corner.

 

Against Brighton we had 3 defenders against two forwards for a free cross from the right. The left CB (Buxton) goes near post, the right CB (Keogh) marks the first forward (Buckley) and the RB (Freeman) picks up the second forward (Ulloa). All perfectly standard defending. However Freeman left the admittedly larger Ulloa to a free header to bizarrely try to block the header, 

 

Against Blackburn another cross from the right from a partially cleared corner meant DCM (Eustace) was still marking their CF (Best) but also had to cover the cross at the near post which he did by moving 3 yards in front of Best. the next CB (Keogh) was marking their CB (Dann) so had stay with him or move to Best. Best dropped a yard further away from goal as good CF's do. Eustace could have gone a yard less far and maybe Keogh could have told him that, but would have had little time.

 

Our main problem is we are generally smaller than the average Championship team and from set plays or secondary attacks from set plays, someone will be marking someone bigger than them or at least better in the air. A consequence of playing pretty football. Therefore we will need to outscore teams. In 4 games we have scored 4 and conceded 3. I am more concerned that we have only scored 4 in 4, not that we have conceded 3 in 4. When you lose 1-0 at home. The 0 is more of a concern than the 1 in my opinion. Obviously if Sammon was playing, more would have been made of this no doubt.

For the brighton game for example looking again at the below, imo You can see our CBs in no mans land, they are behind the brighton player when the ball comes in, keough should have been closer but he is running back to mark the CF who is free, Buxton is also nowhere, if he is in front of the player in the middle he can cut the cross out from there. Freeman is marking a player, and as you say lets him go, not sure why.

But I'm no Alan Hansen, and we could argue about this for ever, which will get boring so we will have to disagree on this, just IMO we had this problem last year, and we don't appear to have learnt from it, time will tell I suppose.

[Rich3478]

I think Buxton has outplayed Keogh in every game this season so far. I don't really think theres much between them, obviously Keogh is younger and probably has more potential.

I think the major issue is a lack of competition for both players. They aren't under any pressure to keep their places and potentially wouldnt really be with O'Brien back. Barker is obviously a huge question mark and can't see why we arent getting an extra centre back in.

Chris Martin won't look forward to playing against Wes Morgan again this season and was bullied by him. I imagine strikers don't really fear our defence.

If we manage to get another player out the door we should really be buying another centre back. It would be so frustrating to build a team thats in with a good chance of getting in the play offs to miss out by not getting the final piece in the jigsaw. I wonder whether theres an element of not getting somebody in as it may be a hit to Shaun Barkers morale.

Maybe Barker is closer to being back than we think and thats why Clough isnt getting somebody in?

99% certain Barker won't be back at Derby, couple of substitute appearances at best. He's been out for 18 months now, still not training with the team. Also heard similar straight from one of the coaching staff as to Barker not playing again.

We'd all love him to return and be the player he was before, don't think we can afford to wait for him. O'Brien also is seemingly constantly injured. Personally think we could do with two centre backs. One tried and tested, the other a prospect.

Then when or if barker and o brien return Clough will have to make decisions and ship two out of Buxton, Keogh, OB and barker provided the two new lads settle in well.

[Scott129]

Centre back pairings from yesterday, debate;

 

Tom Lees and Jason Pearce

Kamil Zayatte and Ant Gardner

Dorian Dervite and Michael Morrison

Tom Kennedy, Jean-Yves Mvoto and Scott Wiseman

Hayden Mullins, Dan Burn and Paul Robinson

Gordon Greer and Matt Upson

James Perch and Leon Barnett

Steve Cook and Elliott Ward

Kevin Long and Jason Shackell

Dan Seaborne and Alan Tate

Wes Morgan and Liam Moore

Jonathan Woodgate and Rhys Williams

Craig Cathcart and Kirk Broadfoot

Dan Shittu and Mark Beevers

Peter Clarke, Ant Gerrard and Joel Lynch

Kelvin Wilson and Jack Hobbs

Zat Knight and David Wheater

Richard Dunne and Nedum Onuoha

Luke Chambers and Tommy Smith

Sean Morrison and Alex Pearce

Gabriele Angella, Lloyd Doyley and Joel Ekstrand

 

Where does the pairing of Richard Keogh, and Jake Buxton lie inbetween all that? 

 

That's 8 pairings ahead of ours IMO. Fairly obvious ones too.