It's top six or bust for Derby

[Asanovic]

How on earth has Clough made a profit?

How much did he manage to get for the likes of Bywater, Pearson, Porter, Martin, Maguire, Cywka, Fielding, Leacock?

Our biggest fee since he's been here is a mere 1.5m for Brayford, we paid practically a million for him from a league two side, - which ofcourse included Bailey fair enough, buts surprise surprise he's another surplus to requirements player on the books who will be sold for a tenner.

You're comparing clothes to football, my God what a comparasment.

Now if he had brought Ben Pringle and made him into a 500,000 player you'd have a fair point. Likewise for Deeney, Robinson, and the above mentioned.

People will mention the youth players like Hendrick, Hughes and Bennett, but Wassall deserves just as much credit on that front and yet his name rarely crops up on here.

Odds are odds, I wonder what they were for Wolves to get promoted last season...

 

Wassall deserves alot of credit, but Clough revapmed the set up. If I do well at work I'll get credit but it's my boss who will be getting the pat on the back that everyone sees, ultimately.

 

I agree with the profit thing though on the whole. When you've only got the money to buy players that patch squads together, it's probably not too fair to expect a profit, is it? I doubt that was in his remit when he took the job. It's rare managers don't make bad signings - but IMO his transfer activity has improved over time.

 

The team on the pitch now is probably worth £15m. It was nowhere near that when he joined.

 

Your comment on Bailey and Brayford is quite funny, and a typical Clough bashing comment. £800k isn't 'practically £1m', and as you alluded to was for TWO players. So £400k each. I'm all for a debate but let's at least tell it like it is, eh? You should work for the Daily Mail!

[Ambitious]

How on earth has Clough made a profit?

How much did he manage to get for the likes of Bywater, Pearson, Porter, Martin, Maguire, Cywka, Fielding, Leacock?

Our biggest fee since he's been here is a mere 1.5m for Brayford, we paid practically a million for him from a league two side, - which ofcourse included Bailey fair enough, buts surprise surprise he's another surplus to requirements player on the books who will be sold for a tenner.

You're comparing clothes to football, my God what a comparasment.

Now if he had brought Ben Pringle and made him into a 500,000 player you'd have a fair point. Likewise for Deeney, Robinson, and the above mentioned.

People will mention the youth players like Hendrick, Hughes and Bennett, but Wassall deserves just as much credit on that front and yet his name rarely crops up on here.

Odds are odds, I wonder what they were for Wolves to get promoted last season...

 

We've sold players for more than we've brought in that is a fact.

 

I'm not going to bother, because, you're just being ridiculous. Also Villa went back to Mexico for 1.7million! 

 

and the comparison was to try and help you understand, clothes was the nicest one I could think off - perhaps I should have used pets instead.

[Hinzy9]

I get your point, but we're in a completely different boat to blackburn. 

 

they've had to sell to buy, like us - (they have parachute payments) but we haven't had a Jones or Samba, we had a Brayford and Shackell and we will re-invest that (i hope, although I do worry if we'll ever see the brayford money again)

 

I don't get what you're argument is, at the end of the day - we're still working on a smaller budget than the majority of championship clubs.

 

At the end of the day...how do you know this? Nobody knows this, not even Rush.

 

Tyson, Russell, Sammon, Grant, Barker, Keogh, Ward, Bryson will be on very substantial wages for this division. Wages, that Huddersfield, Barnsley, Charlton etc certainly would not be able to afford.

 

In my eyes he has had a more than competitive budget over the last 5 years. We literally didn't have a pot to **ss in when George Burley was the manager. He got is the play offs at the first attempt, playing good football as well.

 

Clough really must do better

[Ambitious]

At the end of the day...how do you know this? Nobody knows this, not even Rush.

 

Tyson, Russell, Sammon, Grant, Barker, Keogh, Ward, Bryson will be on very substantial wages for this division. Wages, that Huddersfield, Barnsley, Charlton etc certainly would not be able to afford.

 

In my eyes he has had a more than competitive budget over the last 5 years. We literally didn't have a pot to **ss in when George Burley was the manager. He got is the play offs at the first attempt, playing good football as well.

 

Clough really must do better

 

Huddersfield have a higher budget than us, believe me! Adam Clayton is on 16k a week (but they do have money from blackburn promised from the Rhodes sale) and Burley didn't get into the play-offs at the first attempt at all - believe me, I watch his first season in charge of Derby, we got slaughtered and didn't play good football (infact was incredibly close to relegation, closer than we've ever been with Clough) 

 

A competitive budget for me would be top 10 at least

 

Leicester, Brighton, Wigan, QPR, Bolton, Reading, Forest, Middlesborough, Ipswich and Blackburn there is 10 teams who definitely have a bigger 'budget' than ourselves (discounting Watford, but they do have italian internationals in their side)

[uttoxram75]

Without a definitive list of transfer outgoings vs incomings coupled with the wage bill details, its impossible for us as a group of fans to know exactly whether he has had a competitive budget.

 

My guess/opinion is that he has slashed the wage bill by at least half, maybe more, and spent very little more than he has recouped in transfers.

 

If he does get us promoted it will be a superb piece of work. If he fails, i hope the next guy has a bit more money to spend!

[Day]

Transfer window is still opening, clubs still buying and selling, wait till its shut and Football Manager 2014 is released then we will know for a fact where we stand in terms of wage bill. Football Manager 2013 is sooooo last year even with the latest update.

[froggg]

When he gets us promoted the press will be all over him like a rash.....

[Hinzy9]

Huddersfield have a higher budget than us, believe me! Adam Clayton is on 16k a week (but they do have money from blackburn promised from the Rhodes sale) and Burley didn't get into the play-offs at the first attempt at all - believe me, I watch his first season in charge of Derby, we got slaughtered and didn't play good football (infact was incredibly close to relegation, closer than we've ever been with Clough) 

 

A competitive budget for me would be top 10 at least

 

Leicester, Brighton, Wigan, QPR, Bolton, Reading, Forest, Middlesborough, Ipswich and Blackburn there is 10 teams who definitely have a bigger 'budget' than ourselves (discounting Watford, but they do have italian internationals in their side)

 

The fact still remains- Burley transformed us from relegation candidates to play offs in no time at all and with practically no budget. Clough has had 5 years and never once looked like finishing in the play offs!

[eranio20]

Don't reply to me then man, seriously nobody is forcing you too.

Tito Villa was brought from Tecos UAG for two million and was sold for 1.7m. How's that a profit? Albert was keen to point out on one of the previous pages/threads (I've lost track) that 300,000 is a huge sum; simply because that's the amount off the original Maguire fee I first quoted, so that's a big sum loss there alone if that's the case...

Can't win really can I?

Name me a list of players whom Clough has brought in and sold for a profit then or the amount we paid ; I'll get you started with Brayford...

[Gary Teale]

Are you sure he has spent less than he has brought in? Barker, Keogh, salmon alone isn't far off 3 million, add that the two keepers, Brayford, bailey, theo, Russell, maguire, maybe a few more. Also the free transfers are never free, players like Tyson etc would have got a substantial signing on fee, as in the 100k + region as that's the going rate at this level. We also paid a few off, every transfer costs a fair bit of money and we have had a very large turnover of players. He hasn't really generated that much. I'm sure someone will be able to give us the facts, well as close as we can, the problem is everything is undisclosed so a lot of reported fees are not that accurate.

[Mostyn6]

not to mention about £3m + in loan fees alone.

[ronnieronalde]

Are you sure he has spent less than he has brought in? Barker, Keogh, salmon alone isn't far off 3 million, add that the two keepers, Brayford, bailey, theo, Russell, maguire, maybe a few more. Also the free transfers are never free, players like Tyson etc would have got a substantial signing on fee, as in the 100k + region as that's the going rate at this level. We also paid a few off, every transfer costs a fair bit of money and we have had a very large turnover of players. He hasn't really generated that much. I'm sure someone will be able to give us the facts, well as close as we can, the problem is everything is undisclosed so a lot of reported fees are not that accurate.

 

 

Apart from when it's time for the annual pre-season bash the board and especially now Sam Rush on investment in the squad contest. Then of course players like Grant and Martin don't count cos they were free.

[Bris Vegas]

Huddersfield have a higher budget than us, believe me! Adam Clayton is on 16k a week (but they do have money from blackburn promised from the Rhodes sale) and Burley didn't get into the play-offs at the first attempt at all - believe me, I watch his first season in charge of Derby, we got slaughtered and didn't play good football (infact was incredibly close to relegation, closer than we've ever been with Clough) 

 

A competitive budget for me would be top 10 at least

 

Leicester, Brighton, Wigan, QPR, Bolton, Reading, Forest, Middlesborough, Ipswich and Blackburn there is 10 teams who definitely have a bigger 'budget' than ourselves (discounting Watford, but they do have italian internationals in their side)

 

Under GB we finished on 52 points

 

Under NC we finished on 49 points

 

Slaughtered we were.. Under NC

[Ambitious]

Under GB we finished on 52 points

 

Under NC we finished on 49 points

 

Slaughtered we were.. Under NC

 

1 point outside the relegation zone under GB, closest we've been under NC is 7 points. but don't let facts get in your way of proving a point.

 

also, I went to every game bar 4 during the 52 point season, so don't bother telling me how great we were - that was the worst season (bar the premier league one) for me as a Derby fan, we were dreadful - and our budget comparable to a lot of teams was pretty significant at the time! 

 

but, I don't want to refresh anyones memory - I'm sure the games like the 3-0 loss at home to stoke, getting panned 3-0 by crewe away from home and 4-0 to norwich has hopefully been scrubbed from the mind after nearly a decade on! 

[Ambitious]

Don't reply to me then man, seriously nobody is forcing you too.

Tito Villa was brought from Tecos UAG for two million and was sold for 1.7m. How's that a profit? Albert was keen to point out on one of the previous pages/threads (I've lost track) that 300,000 is a huge sum; simply because that's the amount off the original Maguire fee I first quoted, so that's a big sum loss there alone if that's the case...

Can't win really can I?

Name me a list of players whom Clough has brought in and sold for a profit then or the amount we paid ; I'll get you started with Brayford...

 

I'm not saying we have signed and sold on for a profit, far from it infact but the money we've spent has been re-invested from sales, but I can't be bothered to argue.

 

we're clearly a significant spending club in this division, apparently.

[Hinzy9]

1 point outside the relegation zone under GB, closest we've been under NC is 7 points. but don't let facts get in your way of proving a point.

 

also, I went to every game bar 4 during the 52 point season, so don't bother telling me how great we were - that was the worst season (bar the premier league one) for me as a Derby fan, we were dreadful - and our budget comparable to a lot of teams was pretty significant at the time! 

 

but, I don't want to refresh anyones memory - I'm sure the games like the 3-0 loss at home to stoke, getting panned 3-0 by crewe away from home and 4-0 to norwich has hopefully been scrubbed from the mind after nearly a decade on! 

 

So...still no explanation as to why Burley could turn things around quickly and clough can't?

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

So...still no explanation as to why Burley could turn things around quickly and clough can't?

 

WOW................. I know............ lets sack Clough!

[Ambitious]

So...still no explanation as to why Burley could turn things around quickly and clough can't?

 

Burley signed key players in key positions and made it work. Clough hasn't - does this mean we should sack Clough, or demand more of Clough? I don't know.

 

I make no secrets that I am a bit Clough fan, and will support him through thick and thin - and will find reasons to support him, rather than a stick to beat him.

 

I'm always intriged to who people who want Clough out, actually want in though? so I'm interested to hear your take - would you like Burley back for another spell? 

[Hinzy9]

Burley signed key players in key positions and made it work. Clough hasn't - does this mean we should sack Clough, or demand more of Clough? I don't know.

 

I make no secrets that I am a bit Clough fan, and will support him through thick and thin - and will find reasons to support him, rather than a stick to beat him.

 

I'm always intriged to who people who want Clough out, actually want in though? so I'm interested to hear your take - would you like Burley back for another spell? 

 

To be honest I'm not really that keen on mangers or players going back to former clubs, it rarely seems to work out (although there are exceptions of course).

 

Personally I would have sacked Clough last summer as it became clear to me that he had taken us as far as he could. However, while he is in charge he will have my full support as do the team- that doesn't mean that I'm not able to make judgements on his performance or criticise when necessary.

 

Now…a question for you, as a Clough fan. How many more seasons of midtable finishes would you put up with before you would be asking for a change?

[RodleyRam]

So...still no explanation as to why Burley could turn things around quickly and clough can't?

 

I'm not convinced that the scenarios are actually that similar, whilst football and the wider world are also pretty different now to then.

 

Burley did well to sign the players he did, he was a good manager, I don't think anyone disputes that or claims that Clough is his faultless superior and it's a shame he left before we could really see his plans come to fruition. However, you could argue that there wasn't a great deal underpinning the first team squad, in much the same way as Davies after him. This wasn't necessarily his fault and the problems with the owners at that time are well documented. It's just a different strategy but one which probably comes with more potential short-term rewards but with longer-term risks if promotion isn't gained.

 

Clough's project was always stated as being a bit more long-term in the development and the pay-off being more about building the club back up from off the pitch and the academy to the first team. I think most people who are behind Clough recognise that he's yet to deliver consistently on the pitch but there's enough signs of improvement at each stage to warrant continued support. It's pretty difficult to properly analyse which strategy is the best when Clough is still manager, if you're measuring it on whether we achieve promotion or now (bearing in mind Burley didn't get us promoted so in truth his 'success' as manager actually amounts to the same as Nigel's at this moment in time!!)

 

However, I'd happily argue that Clough's legacy will have a more positive impact in the long-term than most of our recent managers Burley and Davies included, promotion gained or not.

 

It's too easy to polarise the arguments on here and certain posters have a tendency to highlight negatives points without much credence to the distance we have travelled in most areas since he became manager. Most of us that are behind him do recognise a variety of areas for improvement but certain people are so vociferous and immovable that it renders sensible debate next to impossible at times.

 

All in all, I'm right and you're wrong   boo ya