Flying Fokker

1 hour ago, EnigmaRam said:

 

Why should a NEW owner have this imposed against him and his new  purchase?

I understand the reason for the rule, but it should be to stop owners putting the club in admin then buying it back out to clear their own debts. 
If someone’s willing to spend millions to pay off as much of someone else’s debt that they can afford they shouldn’t be then penalised for it. 
 

It’s just immoral and unjust!!

It’s so that the EFL clubs feel better about themselves.  Flip the argument the other way and The Rams could have been in L1 this season. Many clubs thought so anyway.  So the EFL is unlikely to concede anything ref the points being applied this season.  There could be a transfer embargo as well.

53 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Don’t really care how rich the new owner is as long as they run is like a proper business.

Norwich are a shining light on how you don’t have to have rich owners to succeed.

Mel Morris was wealthy and ran us into the ground.

Ask a Norwich fan what success looks like.  I’m of the view that their forays into the is a syndical drive to fill their coffers every other year. 

33 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Premier League? What's that. I heard rumours of a fabled land beyond the Championship that our previous owner was trying to get us into apparently. 

The sad thing is that there is also the fabled League One 

14 minutes ago, Gritstone Ram said:

Could be today. I wonder if the deal includes the ground? If not would that mean that the club rents the ground which will mean more money going out of the club. What is the cost of ground rental? £1m £2m? How much do West Spam pay?

If it is £1m this will be a problem. 50k a game is a lot. Plus event costs/ profit sharing etc   There will be some twists and turns along the way.  

6 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I assume twitter is full tonight of Forest, OTIB cultists and Coventry fans saying they can't celebrate Readings win and probable survival, as they're cheats who broke FFP at double the rate Derby did in 3 years in just18 months.  That it's terrible Barnsley and Peterborough might not stay up and a Reading defeat and relegation would be the correct end to the season.  They're also agreeing I assume, that with  the recent rule changes Derby should be given 2 points back for the 20/21 season as it's only correct that every ones treated fairly. 

Shoddy EFL decision making. At the end of last season there was a clamour for The Rams to have points deductions for obvious reasons.  In terms of further sanctions there is a high chance there will be a clamour to deduct points next season. Some of this is fair of course. But every club seems to negotiate penalties nowadays anyway.  

1 hour ago, glyn1957 said:

I went to the game at the Ricoh  and took my two grandsons along with  me ,it was the match where all the trouble was with fans wearing t shirts spelling Sisu out on them and watching the stewards running up and down the stairs trying to  pull them off the fans but the fans just threw them up or down for others to put on .

Now the reason i recall this match was when you said we as DCFC fans are meandering along and i agree with you ,as a fan base we have never really been disruptive  and i think the EFL are happy about that but the games are passing us by if we want / need to demonstrate our anger, lets go out with a bang and not a bl@@dy whimper like RAMS not bl@@dy sheep .

I remember that game.  A policeman assaulted a fan in block 18.  Blatant thuggery by the law.  We had marches through the city. Protests and disdain and division amongst the fans once the team was taken out of the city.  Somehow the fans that stayed away were not as real as the ones that went to their exiled home games.   I did not travel to Northampton or Birmingham on principle. To me, the owners were charlatans and i've seen quotes from other clubs fans about how CCFC cheated etc.  The truth is, fans are the victims, albeit we contribute to the pressure on owners to produce a club that challenges.  The years pass by and the time in lower tiers mount up.   I just hope that the new owners find a way of playing in Derby, in front of 30k fans.  

I was born Derby.  But moved to Coventry as a 2 year old.  My first game was Cov vs Derby.  My first away game was at the Baseball Ground.  Always followed the scores and never quite understood why Derby were 'nearly' there in the Prem.  No offence meant because Derby is a big club and the crowds prove it.  Just some inept ownership over the years (Both Rams and Cov).

 

40 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I don’t know about anyone else but honestly I’m spent.

I am just going to enjoy the remaining games of the season, go to PP as much as possible, and focus on the football.

Our club’s future is in the hands of people with no real interest in whether the club survives or indeed thrives, so there is little point investing in the stalemate in the boardroom.

All this line dancing proves it’s not about saving Derby County, saving people’s livelihoods and reinvigorating the community, but businessmen simply trying to look like the best, shrewdest businessman in the room. How can they not read the room?

I can’t help but have misgivings about any potential ownership group moving forward. I understand that £50+ million is a lot to spend in the current circumstances, but the club’s potential to bounce back is only diminishing the more this drags on.

Derby County will bounce back.  There may be a way to go.  The core group of fans will have no problem following Derby whatever form the club takes.  Some fans will not go the journey the new owners will take.  But many of them will return after a while.  Who knows?  Fair chance the league position will be sorted by 9th April.  Then of course the League One Club loses about 10 million of its value.

  Maybe MM will do an ownership share on the ground?  One of many issues that blighted Coventry City was the strained relationship between the ground owners and the club owners (Rightly so in my view- SISU Capital tried to screw the original ground owners over). 

It came down to things like the club share of food and beverages on match days, disputed rents, exile to Northampton (And stay away fans resulted in attendances of 1700 per home game sometimes) and Birmingham 5 or so years later with attendances of 4-10k. (The fans were mellowing).  So, the point being, whatever league you are in, you must have a ground, you can build on that no mater where you are.  The Golden Share also helps!       

Coventry City owners were our saviours...Or so we thought.    We were saved at 2 minutes to midnight or we would go into administration....We were taken into admin by our saviours.   

They still come forward with bull that they are going to build a ground of their own near Warwick Universtiy  but have now sub-leased the old Ricoh Arena for 10 years.  (The owners are dreaming of Premiership football, paying off the debts etc and, I must admit, running the club with tight financial control).  They had fans forums before they decided to take us out of Coventry to Northampton and alienated the fans from day one.  But the flip side to that is that their 'control' took us down to league  2 because they were clueless for at least 10 years!  The budget for next season means that they are going to be in the bottom 3 for transfer funds.  CCFC is a selling club. 

I feel so frustrated that The Rams fans are meandering through this *hit storm.  

 

 

59 minutes ago, StrawHillRam said:

Q must not be in a position to  choose between one or other of the bids that give the best return for creditors or liquidate us  if neither of the bids aren’t enough enough to satisfy creditors.

 Can’t be that hard.

It is the law.  They have to do exactly that.  

5 minutes ago, eccles the ram said:

Friday 1st April is pivotal in the history of DCFC from what has been written by Percy et al. If it transpires we don't have a PB that comes up to the valuation (and it seems that may be the case)and Q have gone to the nth degree, then MM and Pearce will be the most despised people not only in Derby and Derbyshire but in homes all across the country, and around the world. Chelsea takeover will be put in the background whilst our demise will be all over Sky. Money, as so many have said in the past, has ruined this beautiful game. Greedy agents and some greedy players have taken our money and run. Very very sad tonight for everyone affected, including my son and myself. It's like sitting at the side of a bed where you are watching someone so precious to you ebbing away in front of eyes and you can't do anything about it. Please Mel DON'T LET THIS MAGNIFICENT CLUB DIE - I BEG YOU!!!

The Clubs have paid the players wages.  The Prem parachute payments have always been a problem regarding the chance to go up.  The owners are all as mad as each other.  My club, Coventry City had years of overspend even in the Premiership.  The fans are the victims.  I'm not convinced this Premier League is worth the risk for those who want to get there anyway.  The Rams, Coventry City- down to League 2 , Bolton, Wigan, Sheffield, Bristol City, Middlesborough, Portsmouth, Cardiff, Swansea, Charlton,  Sunderland, Ipswich.  Jeez, i never realised just how precarious the league structure is.  

The EFL has a lot to answer for.

Some comments from readers of the telegraph article: 

MC

Mark Connolley14 MIN AGO

As a Coventry fan, I thought our situation was the worst.

I really feel for Derby a venerable and proud club. It’s times like this you realise glory isn’t important

CM

Cooper Martyn23 MIN AGO

PP holds over 33,000. Has it ever been more of a white elephant? HMRC have to be paid back 1st as that is public money.

SD

Simon Dunkerley30 MIN AGO

The whole situation is extremely sad and there appears to be no light at the end of the tunnel.

SH

Stephen Hawkes1 HR AGO

And still no accounts submitted ( now 3 years overdue)

JM

Jason McGarry46 MIN AGO

You will have a much longer wait as well because firms in administration are not required to publish accounts. In essence they will never be published.

CR

Cheshire Red1 HR AGO

How are these situations allowed to begin in the first place?

The EFL is negligent on duty; they KNOW football attracts greedy chancers and the vain, with financial behaviour to match, yet clearly are not doing enough to stop these problems before they get serious.

Evidence includes Coventry, Bolton, Macclesfield Town, Derby, Bury and so on. That's far too many for the governors of English football to escape their share of culpability.

Clubs finances MUST be put under stricter rules to prevent individual clubs actually going out of business.

11 older reply

SHOW OLDER REPLIES

SH

Stephen Hawkes57 MIN AGO

So MM is willing to sell Pride Park. Guess it won't be close to the £80 million 'valuation' placed on it to swerve FFP. Will be interesting to see when or if ever Derby produce their accounts that they have included the £4 million plus annual rent payments that were agreed when PP was sold.

JM

Jason McGarry43 MIN AGO

EFL is partly to blame because most EFL clubs actually have debts equal to or greater than Derby's. Clubs are spending insane amounts on wages / transfers and others will go bust over the next few years as their owners walk away. A bug bear of mine is clubs being allowed to pay transfer fees over several years as it encourages stupid spending. If a club wants to buy a player for £5M they should be made to pay it up front.

 

 

You misunderstood.  But you made your point.

 

14 minutes ago, BriggRam said:

I don't fancy being like the Cov fans.........bankers

38 minutes ago, kingsy1884 said:

I had it on good authority that it was MM intention from the start of admin to stick around DCFC and somehow remain as owner presumably with less debt and the EFL / Gibson off our backs.

I was a little sceptical about this information but this has certainly backed it a bit in recent days.

Imo it's madness but then again this is DCFC so nothing is off the table.

It is highly likely.  The debt can be carried over.  It happened at Coventry City.  The owners put us into administration and the administrators invited bids.   Nobody could touch SISU because they's simply restructured the debt and therefore blown everyone else out of the running.

The Ram's result may surprise you on Saturday. The team is playing well and should be good for a draw.  More to the point, The Sky Blues have the capacity to pummel Derby or completely blow it.  Having beaten Fulham 4-1 and more recently Sheffield United 4- I     27 shots on goal suggests the score could have been 8 for City but that's football. I can't see anything between us other than Derby need to score more! 

Coventry's squad had a few absences due to injuries but it is now as good as can be expected.   McFadzean has been very tired of late so I'd be surprised if he starts.

Gyokores, Hamer and O'Hare are the people to watch out for although Hamer is the only one who performs well week in/ week out.  We also have a sub; Tavares who has hit 15 goals in the reserves and 1 goal as a sub in the first team.   

This is a must win for both teams so I'll go for the draw.

4 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

A lot of that makes sense apart from a phoenix club being reborn in League 2. For a start as to the EFL saying it is a show of strength i doubt they would let us retain league status, the other 71 league clubs might have something to say about that.It has never been confirmed we would restart in League 2,just a suggestion. Might get a place in the conference or even a division lower. 

The discussion you are all having brings back bad memories of Coventry City.   We really thought we were gone until our white knight came in.  Pity he was riding a trojan horse.  

FWIW you seem to be in a better position than we were although as I said in the past, the ground needs to be in Club ownership.  Regards League of a Phoenix Club,  I guess there would have to be a bit of bargaining going on concerning distribution of gate receipts to the club you played?   Not sure you would be in League 2 due to the points you make.  Conference is about as far as you could go down in my view.  But as mentioned before   Coventry United is a phoenix club started by City supporters who really thought it was going to happen.  They are at the 9th Tier having taken an eternity to get there despite a very successful first few years.  Now playing several other clubs from Coventry in their league.   I think the lesson learned from that is it is better to re-start as Derby County and take the hit of playing in tier 5 or 6.

16 minutes ago, Rev said:

My fear is that we've wasted valuable time that we as fans could've used to at least explore the possibility of a fan owned Phoenix club, should it be necessary.

 

That is the sensible route.  However, I'm not sure you will need it anyway.  Coventry City fans started a phoenix club.  Coventry United.  They started about the 8th or 9th tier and have progressed through the leagues.  Their biggest win 24-0. 

But if the Rams were liquidated they would probably be in the top of the non-league clubs purely due to the fan base. They may even be re-elected to the league 2 status due to this.  

The journey for the Coventry United owners has now taken a different route but I guess they will always be renamed.  Again, I think they would probably drop no more that down to the first tier of non-league.

 

1 hour ago, atherstoneram said:

Which is why we moved a couple of years ago. It was getting a bit rough,well more than it was,now live in a decent village.

What about areas on Harthill and Camp Hill.  Now they are posh.  There is of course Polesworth as Well.  

Does the stadium have any other value?  Industrial/ Residential?/ Commercial.

20 million for the land?  

Could County lease the ground for a period until this is sorted out?   Coventry City do not own a stadium. The Rams would need to have total right over any revenues within the stadium.  It will of course come to a point where you need a stadium ownership so you can progress.

 

1 hour ago, Oldben said:

http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.php

That limits the spend in League one.

Season tickets and revenue from gate receipts will matter a lot.

60% of turnover allowable spend.

Highly expensive wage budgets not a good idea.

The club's at the top have generally have the largest wage budgets plus are spending the most to win promotion.

Unlikely to win promotion without at least one 15 goals plus a season striker.

If derby are handed a 15 point deduction next season, that will require an amazing team to win promotion in one season.

New owners are definitely not likely to want to see more than one season in League given the size of the debt, as that debt increases the longer the club's in League one.

The teams psychology would need to change to a total belief that they can win promotion.

It takes time for team to bond especially if your looking to bring in at least 8 new players.

Scouting network has to be exceptional to get the best talent at the best odds.

The club has to pay above the odds to bring in the best talent for a promotion push especially if there's a 15 point deduction.

The current team in my opinion, isn't strong enough to win promotion at the first attempt.

If derby ground is too expensive, might have to ground share with Burton or Notts county. I think those teams would accept the extra capital and share their grounds but that's less fans at the games so less revenue.

Neutral viewpoint.   Ask a Sunderland fan what needs to be done.   

You make great points and the money will certainly help once the transfer embargo is lifted.  Teams can go up successfully but it is built on exactly what you say.    The team I support, Coventry had an extremely low budget for several years because of the ridiculous outcomes of alienating the fans. 

The team had one of the poorest budgets but the manager assembled his best possible squad which actually saw us pull back from League 2 (1 season) and the following couple of years promotion push.  City's budget was affected by the revenues gained the previous seasons.  

This brings us back to The Rams. This season attendances have been as consistently high.  It bodes well for next season providing the players that make the difference want to play in League One.  If not, get rid as soon as possible because they will pull the whole team down to the mediocrity of several seasons there.  The Rams will be big payers for the right talent.  

Sunderland seem to be a fixture in their league as they miss out on promotion play-off success most seasons despite having high revenues.  Derby may still have some debt of course but I'd put a few quid on promotion next season.  

BTW Rooney has done a great job so far although the other teams seem to be doing a good job of relegation themselves.  The results are being ground out but some of those draws will cost The Rams.    Mid-table (Would be under-achieving in any other circumstances for Derby).  It is so difficult for fans because Rooney has fought out some solid results against clubs without the sanctions when their fans would have expected you to lie down.  This was our bug bear as well during our journey to league 2.

 

1 hour ago, Oldben said:

 

 

 

Has this been mentioned before?  Just wondered if there is any credibility in it?  Seen on SkyBlues Talk. 

Colin Steins Smile said:

I've heard that the highest bidder is Mike Ashley, who's only offering 15p in the £1 to non protected creditors. The EFL want a minimum of 25p in the £1.
The other bidders for the club do not offer enough money.
A 15 point deduction for next season beckons.

41 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

I didn't say that Mel was pulling the Admin's strings but he owns the stadium and is free to negotiate its sale as he sees fit. The stadium is not in administration.

I hate to say this, but if a lot of debt is carried by Mel he will have leverage in any bid.  He may agree to take on the debt again.  In which case the Administrators will have no choice to accept because it is the best outcome. if he walks away it is more of a level playing field. 

One of the barriers to having new owners at Coventry was that SISU did exactly that.  We still have them hanging around.

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Whatever the new owners intentions for us are (selling us for a profit later on, as a marketing vehicle for Sports Direct etc, whatever), they're not served by starting us off on -15 next season, especially if that's in League 1.  The only way you gain real value from owning Derby County is by getting us into the Prem, or at least as serious Championship promotion contenders. 

I'm not saying they're going to turn us into a top 6 Prem team or anything, but there's no point paying the millions required for a lower Championship or League 1 club.  If that's what you want, there are probably much better options available at a much lower cost.  You buy Derby because we have the potential to be a Prem team (stadium, fanbase, facilities etc).

Derby is a great club.  My 'second team' as I moved to Coventry in the 1965.  The only issue with any takeover is motivation of the owners.  We ended up with SISU who thought they could run rough shod over everyone in their path.  This took us down to League 2. I have no respect for them or the journey they took us on.  If you have several bidders you are in with a better chance than us.  Hopefully this will resolve soon and you will be in recovery mode for a while.  If you end up with a hedge fund or the likes you will struggle to make headway. Although they get paid on results they also hold tight purse strings.  I guess it's a case of good accounting and having a strategic focus...They got it wrong at Coventry.  Recruiting crap managers for several years, running out expensive player contracts and pitching their model on stable balance sheets.  This extended to us fans becoming nomads on 2 occasions.  Long story.  

I think Derby will take a bit of time to flourish again.  You may go down but the last couple of months prove that you have a solid team on the pitch ATM.

4 minutes ago, Geoff Parkstone said:

Or leave the stadium as is, leaving MSD with the stadium and the £1m annual return yielding 5% on cost

Oh dear...I really hope the Club buy the stadium.  Paying a landlord is a millstone around your neck.  Alternatively you could play your games in another city like your fellow Championship members Coventry City did on 2 occasions (Northampton 1 season and Birmingham for 2 seasons), over a 5 year period.  The crowds at Northampton were 1/8 of the attendances in the city for several months.  Then BCFC,  50% of previous season attendance for some games but far lower most of the time. 

Back to what is best for Derby: Own your ground. Own your training ground. Respect you, the fans.

Forgive me for painting a slightly different picture

 

I really hope that The Rams find someone of course, but Due Diligence and Fit and Proper ownership are the watch words from our/ the fans perspective.  The angst and anger is still around now.  Your Administrators need to start earning their money. 

We had one called Appleton and he hung around for years after coming out of Administration.   Acquire the ground, keep focusing on balancing the books but don't do what the Sky Blues owners did.  It was all an 11th hour thing for the club and anything was better than nothing of course...5 seasons in the Championship, then a drop to league 1 for a few years and then to 2 before the progress back to where they started. 15 years earlier... SISU Capital is the name.  Did nothing but save us from liquidation.  Turned out some terrible teams with equally poor managers when things were really bad.  Going to Northampton and Birmingham filled those club's coffers but did naff all for the club in it's home town.

 

 

 

Does this mean that Middlesborough will be coming for the players for free?   

If I were the administrators I would tell Middlesbourough to meet them in court.  Stuff em.  it will not do Derby any good if that were the case.  Sell players if needs be but not to Middlesborough.

The priority is to finish the season.  Middlesborough will not be able to claim anything if The Rams are out of business.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60040400?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

 

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

I may be in the minority now, I usually am, but I think we now just let Quantuma get on with their job.

The work done by so many over recent days has had great success mobilising large groups of fans (Rams and others), and tremendous success in getting publicity for our grievances, both on TV/Radio, in the press, and astonishingly as a question in the UK parliament today. It has also flushed out the responses of the EFL and Boro.

BUT now it does come down to the suits to sort it out. We should not be distracting them from what will be a vital few weeks negotiating with the EFL, Boro, and our preferred buyer, knowing the whole football world, and the Government are watching very closely. Well done everyone, and come on Quantuma. You Rams!

 

1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

Or.......

Is it time for the Administrators/club to now come out with a public statement addressing (shooting down) the points in the EFL and Boro statements?

Let's keep the momentum and public support while we have it ?

I'm not sure this makes much of a difference.  The Administrator has a far broader role as they are dealing with multiple parties outside of football as we all know.  They will be hanging around long after The Rams come out of admin.  I was born in Derby but moved to Coventry when the clouds were white and the sky was blue.  I looked at Coventry's administrator and see that they were still submitting accounts several years later.  Can't be bothered to go into the detail because you are going through it in much the same way as we did.  I'm confident you will survive.