G STAR RAM

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Maybe a bit pedantic on my part, but 9 months ago (about the 1st of September) the message from the government was if you don't go back into the office, then don't be surprised if you lose you job.

Then the message throughout September was that there would be no 2nd wave and no lockdown.

Towards the end of October, the message was Starmer wants to destroy the economy by following scientific advice that a new lockdown is needed.

Then a few days later there was a lockdown for the whole of November announced.

If the lockdown doesn't end at the end of June, then it should spell the end of the government. Travel from Pakistan and Bangladesh stopped, but Indian travel allowed for another 2 weeks or so. Pure coincidence that Johnson was supposed to be going there to attempt some trade deals.

So many screwups, many of them being to a non-existent border policy. People allowed to fly in from Northern Italy in early March without a single restriction or check.

Did you see how on the first day of international travel earlier in the month? We had passport queues mixed with people arriving from red, amber and green countries. They had months of no travel to plan for this.

So much incompetence. So many people who have done nothing worthwhile in charge. Perhaps we should have put the military in charge in March. Or some successful business who had worked their way up, rather than just been educated at some posh school.

Yes, got my dates wrong but sure nobody would disagree that the message re lockdowns as always been not to overwhelm the NHS and the message re the way out of this has been wait for the vaccine.

Re travel from India, the reason for not suspending travel has been given, whether its true or not is anyone's guess but, like you say for the Cummings story, nobody has come out and denied it.

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

It's fair enough comment, but they are fairly different things.

The Barnard Castle story was about Cummings and his family. No one can say for sure if he was telling the truth. Besides,  my main anger with it was that he put people in danger by spreading Covid to other places. This is why he should have been sacked immediately. The eyetest story sounded madeup, but it was as if this lie was more important than what he actually admitted to.

I'm not sure if you saw much of the recent footage, but it was pretty fascinating insight into how government works, or in this case doesn't work. It was also stories involving multiple people and witnesses, none of whom have denied that they took place.

In terms of saying something at the time, Cummings did say he regrets not resigning in September when Johnson wouldn't lockdown. But hoped in staying on he could try and prevent even more deaths.

If the General Public already knew all this, why haven't the riots started already?

Watched it in its entirety and, like I said, he came across a bitter man, and very disingenuous.

Basically his message was he was sorry about the number of deaths, mistakes were made but it wasnt really his fault (despite the fact we were constantly told he was the most powerful man in Government), he had all the right answers but nobody listened.

Riots haven't started because people understand that this is a once in a generation event and probably feel that no matter who was in charge the result would probably have largely been the same. Id say the vaccine rollout has definitely been the saviour of this Government.

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53044835.amp

Figure quoted by the Beeb is a million. So don't think I'm massively over exaggerating as a million workers isn't an insignificant number. Again if you refute that study or article then let's end this argument here. 

Bottom line is Sunak could have done more to help those unfairly excluded but he didn't. 

Am not sure why you're so intent on defending someone who purposely excluded legitimate tax payers from this scheme unless you like a number of other people of the I'm Alright Jack mentality whom are happy to get something for nothing but will then moan like a drain if they don't think they're getting a fair slice of the pie. 

I won't defend him where I think he has treated people unfairly.

Where you say he has treated legitimate taxpayers unfairly you may recall that a lot who missed out were people taking low salaries and high dividends to avoid paying tax/national insurance in the first place.

As for my own personal situation, I have worked throughout the whole pandemic, working for a company where all but 2 of us were furloughed, so wouldn't say I am a something for nothing merchant. 

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

You refute my points but then when I do post a link to a scientific study you also refute that too. And when I ask a question myself such as what would you have done to ensure no one fell through the gaps of the furlough scheme and why then wasn't that don't by Sunak you ignore that too but then expect an answer from myself by the same token. 

Not really sure how that works but guess this isn't the Oxford Union debating society which I realised yonks ago. 

I'm not refuting your points. 

All I've done is ask for links to evidence if millions missing out on the furlough scheme. 

Ive agreed with you that anyone unfairly missing out should have been judged on a case by case basis.

I think you're massively over exaggerating the numbers to back up your case and at the same time undermine the job done by Sunak. I dont think I'm right by any stretch if the imagination so am happy to see the evidence that I am wrong. 

In terms of the EOTHO scheme youve posted a scientific study that is not peer reviewed and, when fact checked, appears to hold little weight. I've countered it with what I have seen from 'evidence' within the industry. 

5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Yes I agree that there should have been a secondary check to appeal any decision not just say that if you missed the cut off date then tough. But Sunak slyly totally disassociated himself with the furlough scheme by saying it was down the employers to decide whether they would pay someone furlough or not, not him. So abdicated any responsibility for the crass way it was administered.

I can understand that the scheme would be open to fraud but it seemed totally obscene for Sunak to say the reason he wouldn't change the date was to protect tax payers money whilst at the same time denying perfectly legitimate claims for people who then lost homes, were driven to suicide etc.

I can only refer you back to the link which stated there was a direct correlation between Sunaks scheme and the spike in cases, if you disagree with this then suggest you post your own expect article refuting this otherwise you have to accept its validity. 

So no evidence to back up your statement that millions were denied furlough pay? Thought not.

I also would be interested to see the evidence of people who lost their homes or were driven to suicide on the basis of the rules of the furlough scheme.

You've had the link to the fact checking site that pretty much stated that your link was not evidence based.

You'd think if there was any basis to the Warwick University paper (which is not peer reviewed by the way) that the Government would have used it when challenged by the hospitality sector for evidence for why they are still being treated differently to other sectors, guess what...its never been used.

In fact (although I will have to double check this) the Treasury's own research stated only 3% of cases were linked to the EOTHO scheme. 

12 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

There'll be riots if by the 14th June Boris turns around and deviates away from a full re-opening on the 21st June. 

We keep hearing that cases are rising exponentially. If that's right, what did they call the cases rising in the first and second waves? Just over 3000 for the last 3 days, some will say lagging with figures over the bank holiday weekend, if thats the case we should see cases at around 10000+ tomorrow if this variant is making cases rise exponentially. 

It would be great if somebody on here could put up a poll to see what people think about whether we need to put the 21st June date back. Nobody I speak to would agree with that if it happens.

Whilst I wouldn't condone riots, I hope it would spell the end of the Government. The message was clear from about 9 months ago that the lockdowns were to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and the vaccine was the way out of this.

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

You didn't answer my question - what would you have done to ensure that nobody fell through the gaps? There were millions who were denied furlough payments through no fault of their own other then changing jobs at the wrong time.

And I've posted a link to a study regards the Eat out Scheme. 

Millions denied furlough because they changed jobs at the wrong time? Can I see the evidence if this claim please?

There simply had to be a cut off date for the scheme but I believe there should have been a safety net where individuals could have appealed on a case by case basis.

I saw your link and it had already been pre-empted with a link to fact checking site which said there was pretty much very little basis to the claims, this is backed up by the Government being unable to provide any evidence to the hospitality sector.

4 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

There didn't have to be any arbitrary cut off date full stop which answers your question. People unfairly excluded were not allowed to prove that they were on a companies payroll and paying tax which would have solved the entire issue. Turning your question back on yourself what would you have done then to make sure that nobody fell through the gaps? And why wasn't it done.

Not sure what evidence you've used to say that the Eat out Scheme DIDN'T cause the spike in cases or are you attesting that there wasn't a spike at all which coincided with there scheme being rolled out?

So just to be clear, no cut off date, everyone qualifies for the CJRS, and you dont see any potential issues with that? 

Which people were unfairly excluded out of interest?

Its not up to me to prove there wasnt a spike in cases following the EOTHO scheme because Im not the one that made the point. As someone who has an interest in the hospitality sector we have asked repeatedly for the evidence but have never received any, it looks like we are about to get it from you though...the floor is all yours...

11 minutes ago, Archied said:

Think you would also be surprised how many of the older generation don’t want the rest of their lives ruining too ,

this whole selfish rhetoric needs re examining,,,, keep everybody safe translates to make EVERYBODY do what makes me feel safe 

My mum was absolutely scared shitless by the media propaganda. 

She has now had both jabs and is happy to return to normal. 

I'm completely bemused by anyone that has had only one jab and doesn't want this poo show to end.

Got my 2nd jab in 7 days, will be left wondering what the point of having it is if the Government bow down to the doom mongers.

10 minutes ago, Norman said:

I'm 33, the Mrs is under 30.

I've had one jab, she's had none. I don't really want people telling me I have to stay indoors and not do anything for another month. 

We've both worked though the pandemic, and as a direct consequence caught Covid back in January.

Let me ducking live. Sick of people who are vaccinated saying we have to wait. No thanks.

It's really not asking much considering the NHS is safe, hospitalisation are low and old people who are fully vaccinated are going on holiday and drinking in pubs.

Just open up the ducking country. Far more damage is being done by keeping us locked down. 

Yeah but there MIGHT be another variant which MIGHT be more transmissible and MIGHT lead to more hospitalisation and MIGHT lesd to deaths going into treble figures per week.

I think its best to stay locked in your house for another month just to make sure.

But don't forget to go to work and the supermarket and mix with hundreds of other people, that should be ok.

3 hours ago, Archied said:

There in lies your problem , yourself and others have decided protecting themselves ( fear based) is them protecting all of us ,pretending they are on some moral high ground , there’s plenty who believe we are being over protected and don’t want you protecting us anymore thanks ??‍♂️

Nail on head.

If people are worried about the Indian variant then let them stay locked up in their house (if that is what they want).

I'm vaccinated now and happy to take my chances.

The people that are vulnerable to this disease, or other variants of it, are vulnerable now until it is completely eradicated, which is not going to happen.

Its quite a harsh thing to say but I am absolutely disgusted with anyone that is advocating ruining the lives of the younger generation anymore.

5 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Sunak? What the guy did to those millions he made ineligible for furlough payments after refusing to move an arbitrary cut off date is still an absolute disgrace.

And the Eat Out to Help Out scheme which caused a spike in the Covid cases wasn't the cleverest move either. 

You do realise whatever date was used for furlough scheme would have meant that some people missed out? What date would you have used out of interest? And what would you have based your decision on?

The Eat Out To Help Out did not lead to any spike in cases, or at least nobody has been able to provide evidence to the contrary, maybe you could provide it?

https://fullfact.org/news/did-eat-out-help-out-cause-covid-spread/

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Cummings was clearly lying last summer. But these latest revelations include multiple people and sounded much more credible. No one seems to have come out yet and said they are untrue.

They sound more credible? Are you sure you don't mean it doesn't just sound more like you want to hear?

Not sure he even said much that the general public didn't already know did he?

The stories would have been much more credible had they been said at the time.

I think to many they just look like the barbs of a bitter man.

53 minutes ago, Boycie said:

I fear another mini lockdown, mainly so the government can say they acted swiftly to fight the Indian variant.  Even though we probably don’t need one, but they can then say, “Arh but we did act swiftly in June 2021!” At the enquiry in 2030.

Would be disastrous for the Goverment.

We were told that the lifting of restrictions was irreversible. 

Protect the NHS.

Data not dates.

People do remember these slogans.

11 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

John became Primeminister under pretty unique circumstances. I don't think many people who voted for him imagined he would be any good. I don't think anyone thought he could be this bad though. The picture Cummings painted was chaotic incompetence.

Under normal circumstances there would probably be a leadership challenge now, but there are few people who could stand. Maybe Sunak?

Is this the same Cummings that we were told was a bare faced liar 12 months ago? Amazing how eager some are to hang on his every word now!

Its also noticeable that alot of gone quiet on the comparisons with other countries now that the other countries have had their third wave of infections.

Remember when Germany were the gold standard in track and trace for Europe?

Pretty much all they are left with now are 2 countries out in the middle of nowhere and the middle eastern countries who have had experience of pandemics and are used to walking round wearing masks.

9 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Haven't you got some media outlet to be furious about? We all know they are the real problem!

Yeah I am still really angry with the way the media have behaved throughout the pandemic but I've made the point, no need to keep mentioning it in every post.

I've never said they are the real problem though and have been very critical of the Government when I think they have made mistakes, I find that is more objective than just jumping on every decision they make as a way to attack Boris Johnson (who I actually think has been a terrible leader throughout the pandemic).

Im surprised that any of you actually still believe that @ariotofmyownposts are actually Covid related and not just thinly veiled policital posts!

In fact they arent even veiled, 4 out of the last 6 posts have been direct attacks on Boris Johnson.

27 minutes ago, Pearl Ram said:

I think he’s a very bitter man.

Get the feeling 'Hancock' is not on his Xmas card list.

12 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

To be fair you did say "I don't know of 1 single person that has died from it so Im left scratching my head a bit"

So I did not say I think problems are being exaggerated based on my personal experiences.

I gave a specific example of how I believe the media are using figures to continue with their scare stories. 

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

So we're back to the "I don't know anybody affected, therefore the problems are exaggerated" school of 'thought', are we?

 

No, who said that?

Hopefully, we are also not back to judging posts on who is posting rather than the content of their posts.

2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

the press do this with every scare story, the public lap it up and buy copy.  If you expect the press not to feed a frenzy........

I buy a newspaper once in a blue moon.

I read the BBC website every day.

Its hard to avoid articles on social media.

6 minutes ago, Spanish said:

don't get what you are saying here.  So the figs are not made up but are not as bad as the press are making out?

I have had 2 close people who have died.

Like all historical matters some have a need to deny it existed or wish to bend the truth to somehow tell a conspiracy story.  It is a virus, it has killed many people (mostly those that were at risk and were taken from us earlier than would have been normal) and it continues to burn in other areas of the world.

I've said I believe the existence of the virus.

I dont believe the figures from anywhere are correct, just estimates, there are just way too many incosistences in the figures released across the board for any reliance to be placed on any of them. 

And yes I think the media have plucked figures to continue their scare stories, its happened throughout with them concentrating on the worst stat at any given point in time.

Currently its total number of deaths in India. 300,000 sounds a big number when you keep repeating it but totally disregard that it is in a population of 1.2billion.

22 minutes ago, angieram said:

You're lucky. I sadly know three.

I think your figures for Derby are wrong,  btw.

Yes my figures were wrong!

I guess I dont know too many people of the ages most affected as my grandparents are long dead, although my parents both fit into that category.

I only even know 1 person that was hospitalised.

I just seem completely distanced from the whole thing.

23 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

All places weren't impacted the same. If you had been in certain care homes, you'd have known lots of people who had died.

And according to a google search, the population of Derby is 260k, of which 0.2% is 520, not 5000.

I hope this is only a recent mathematical error and it hasn't been driving your opinion on here for months.

Yes mathematical error, only just did calculation after reading Mostyns post.

Not sure what opinion you mean, not really posted much on here in recent months.

8 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Maybe not - but you're citing the work of conspiracy theorists desperately trying to find figures that play into their conviction that there is some sort of hoax going on. In some cases because they're just not very well and have too much time on their hands, and in other cases so that they can perpetuate their grift and make a tidy sum out of the whole thing by exploiting those who just desperately want to believe

So let's be clear - there is no need for FOI requests to councils for this info

1) because councils only carry figures for council-owned crematoriums and not private 

2) the total figure for 2020 is already published by the Crematorium Society.

 

You won't be surprised to see that there were ~70k more cremations in 2020
 

And that the bloke on Twitter called "John M:Wrong Think Super Spreader" has piped down a bit

 

 

Maybe some people aren't looking for a conspiracy theory but just find the figures hard to comprehend because of personal experience.

127,000 deaths is 0.2% of the population, 1 in 500 people.

In Derby that would equate to around 5,000 deaths.

I don't know of 1 single person that has died from it so Im left scratching my head a bit.

I don't think figures are being made up but I do think every figure that could have been used by the media to make this thing look worse than it is, has been played on massively.

9 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

Heard a theory a long time back that this lockdown is partly fuelled by Climate Change. Just stumbled across an Attenborough documentary on AppleTV where they’ve clearly been gathering footage from Day 1 of lockdown 1. Then just seen some Bill Gates foundation propaganda and it kind of makes a bit of sense. 

After seeing the results of the first lockdown of course it is clearly plausible but surely if it was about climate change it would be a futile exercise without the involvement of China and India?