Leeds Ram

If there was absolutely no advantage to be gained why did we choose such an unusual method? So unusual no other club in the football league used  the same method.  From the little I've read (and am happy to be shown I'm wrong) it does seem as though we gained an advantage through minimising losses via  a unique way of measuring amortisation. Now that's a separate question from do other clubs use loopholes to gain a systematic advantage over others where we can look at others and point out some hypocrisies going on and it's even separate from the question of whether we really did anything wrong. But it looks (again from the little I have read) that we used a method that did give us a significant advantage over others. 

I'm in the camp now where the EFL aren't backing down and Mel should come to an agreement even if it is a points deduction. Dragging this on isn't in the club's best interest, it is simply burning the club and even if we come away with a victory it'll likely be a pyrrhic one with us looking at potential relegation. I don't know if it's ego that's the issue here, that Mel can't tolerate being told he's wrong and is fighting it all the way to get some kind of vindication that he was in the right all along  but I'm finding it difficult to understand why we haven't come to a mutual agreement on this still. 

If the amortisation policy is allowing us to delay losses as I've described then it gives us an advantage in 1 potentially 2 ways. The first one is it allows us to spend more in a short period of time, that's a definite advantage that we had. The second one is contingent upon if we can maximise our revenue streams to mitigate the depreciation, if we managed to do that then we've had a second longer term advantage of potentially excessive spending over a long period of time. It has the potential downside that if we couldn't find the revenue then we'd hit a sticky wicket in the longer term. 

I am not an accountant either, but if I was I doubt I could have explained the position more clearly. One now imagines that we maximised our losses/limits during 2016/2018'ish using 'our' amortisation policy, but now that we are being asked to restate the position, presumably straight line, we are seen to have breached the limit threshold. Hence why points penalities are probably now under discussion.

I'm not an accountant but amortisation isn't the whole picture it's part of the pie of a company's financial status right? So, if you're really wanting as a club to make a big fist of it in two seasons the goal is to minimise losses now  so you can spend more. Then you may have a higher depreciation of assets in 4 years but in 4 years you may have a number of revenue strategies to mitigate this so you can maintain spending. For instance a strong academy creating assets to sell on, changing the revenue structure of tv deals, or selling the stadium to yourself in order to cancel out the depreciation. Therefore, the advantage creeps in by buying time then attempting all sorts of ways to mitigate the natural asset loss that you've delayed so you can spend more in the short period you're wanting to hence the unfair advantage.  

Again, I'm not an accountant or anything like it so I may be completely wrong but it strikes me as pretty obvious we used this method to gain a distinct advantage over others that's now come back to bite us. Logically, if everyone is using the same system but you're using a different system it's because you think it's better for some reason and why would we think it's better if it didn't gain us an advantage in some way?

It's gaining an advantage in that specific year though isn't it. It wouldn't necessarily lead to higher losses in future years as I would assume that's revenue dependent. My non expert reading is that it's giving the club headroom for further spending and delaying a large loss for future years when it may be able to be mitigated. 

If there was absolutely no advantage to be gained why did we choose such an unusual method? So unusual no other club in the football league used  the same method.  From the little I've read (and am happy to be shown I'm wrong) it does seem as though we gained an advantage through minimising losses via  a unique way of measuring amortisation. Now that's a separate question from do other clubs use loopholes to gain a systematic advantage over others where we can look at others and point out some hypocrisies going on and it's even separate from the question of whether we really did anything wrong. But it looks (again from the little I have read) that we used a method that did give us a significant advantage over others. 

I'm in the camp now where the EFL aren't backing down and Mel should come to an agreement even if it is a points deduction. Dragging this on isn't in the club's best interest, it is simply burning the club and even if we come away with a victory it'll likely be a pyrrhic one with us looking at potential relegation. I don't know if it's ego that's the issue here, that Mel can't tolerate being told he's wrong and is fighting it all the way to get some kind of vindication that he was in the right all along  but I'm finding it difficult to understand why we haven't come to a mutual agreement on this still. 

It's gaining an advantage in that specific year though isn't it. It wouldn't necessarily lead to higher losses in future years as I would assume that's revenue dependent. My non expert reading is that it's giving the club headroom for further spending and delaying a large loss for future years when it may be able to be mitigated. 

If there was absolutely no advantage to be gained why did we choose such an unusual method? So unusual no other club in the football league used  the same method.  From the little I've read (and am happy to be shown I'm wrong) it does seem as though we gained an advantage through minimising losses via  a unique way of measuring amortisation. Now that's a separate question from do other clubs use loopholes to gain a systematic advantage over others where we can look at others and point out some hypocrisies going on and it's even separate from the question of whether we really did anything wrong. But it looks (again from the little I have read) that we used a method that did give us a significant advantage over others. 

I'm in the camp now where the EFL aren't backing down and Mel should come to an agreement even if it is a points deduction. Dragging this on isn't in the club's best interest, it is simply burning the club and even if we come away with a victory it'll likely be a pyrrhic one with us looking at potential relegation. I don't know if it's ego that's the issue here, that Mel can't tolerate being told he's wrong and is fighting it all the way to get some kind of vindication that he was in the right all along  but I'm finding it difficult to understand why we haven't come to a mutual agreement on this still. 

It's gaining an advantage in that specific year though isn't it. It wouldn't necessarily lead to higher losses in future years as I would assume that's revenue dependent. My non expert reading is that it's giving the club headroom for further spending and delaying a large loss for future years when it may be able to be mitigated. 

It's gaining an advantage in that specific year though isn't it. It wouldn't necessarily lead to higher losses in future years as I would assume that's revenue dependent. My non expert reading is that it's giving the club headroom for further spending and delaying a large loss for future years when it may be able to be mitigated. 

If there was absolutely no advantage to be gained why did we choose such an unusual method? So unusual no other club in the football league used  the same method.  From the little I've read (and am happy to be shown I'm wrong) it does seem as though we gained an advantage through minimising losses via  a unique way of measuring amortisation. Now that's a separate question from do other clubs use loopholes to gain a systematic advantage over others where we can look at others and point out some hypocrisies going on and it's even separate from the question of whether we really did anything wrong. But it looks (again from the little I have read) that we used a method that did give us a significant advantage over others. 

I'm in the camp now where the EFL aren't backing down and Mel should come to an agreement even if it is a points deduction. Dragging this on isn't in the club's best interest, it is simply burning the club and even if we come away with a victory it'll likely be a pyrrhic one with us looking at potential relegation. I don't know if it's ego that's the issue here, that Mel can't tolerate being told he's wrong and is fighting it all the way to get some kind of vindication that he was in the right all along  but I'm finding it difficult to understand why we haven't come to a mutual agreement on this still. 

The letter is perfectly fine for me, it asks the right questions and it's an honest attempt at open communication which is more than we've had from the club. I'm not sure what the other options are open to ramstrust besides staging a protest which I can't see doing anyone any good. Mel can sit and ignore this if he wants but the sooner he actually communicates with us in a concrete way the more support he'll get from a lot of people deciding they've had enough. 

No-one on here knows Mel so I think all speculation (some more informed than others) on if he's a 'good guy' or not should probably be put to one side. I think the club is quite obviously being run into the ground and I don't think the way we're being mismanaged is particularly defensible anymore in a number of areas. The ticketing situation is ridiculous especially for some away games which does make it an absolute pain to get tickets and it is definitely financially harming the club. The lack of communication in a number of areas is not good enough, if Mel was just another owner this alone would be getting a lot more grief for it. Mel's tactics with the EFL has put a target on our back and alienated us from other clubs in the division, whether he is right or wrong on the argument is of secondary importance, it's inevitably led to this state of affairs that has left us in a shambles. 



I don't really have sympathy for the argument of 'bad luck' and 'he's put in a ton of money' to me i just think go and play the world's smallest violin as Mel's a rich man and he'll still be rich after he's sold us. Money is easy to spend when you've got it and it doesn't reflect much more than your capacities. As an owner he should have been more prudent with his investment and despite trying to sell the club for 2 years, as of last year he was still asking for 100 million quid for the club 'all in'. That's not a price that screams 'desperate to sell' it's much closer to 'I am selling the club but I want my investment back'.  

He was more than happy to be celebrating at elland road on the pitch with his scarf so in my book he's also got to be as visible when things go sideways. He simply hasn't done this and it's a mark of poor quality leadership that has defined his time at the club. 

No-one on here knows Mel so I think all speculation (some more informed than others) on if he's a 'good guy' or not should probably be put to one side. I think the club is quite obviously being run into the ground and I don't think the way we're being mismanaged is particularly defensible anymore in a number of areas. The ticketing situation is ridiculous especially for some away games which does make it an absolute pain to get tickets and it is definitely financially harming the club. The lack of communication in a number of areas is not good enough, if Mel was just another owner this alone would be getting a lot more grief for it. Mel's tactics with the EFL has put a target on our back and alienated us from other clubs in the division, whether he is right or wrong on the argument is of secondary importance, it's inevitably led to this state of affairs that has left us in a shambles. 



I don't really have sympathy for the argument of 'bad luck' and 'he's put in a ton of money' to me i just think go and play the world's smallest violin as Mel's a rich man and he'll still be rich after he's sold us. Money is easy to spend when you've got it and it doesn't reflect much more than your capacities. As an owner he should have been more prudent with his investment and despite trying to sell the club for 2 years, as of last year he was still asking for 100 million quid for the club 'all in'. That's not a price that screams 'desperate to sell' it's much closer to 'I am selling the club but I want my investment back'.  

He was more than happy to be celebrating at elland road on the pitch with his scarf so in my book he's also got to be as visible when things go sideways. He simply hasn't done this and it's a mark of poor quality leadership that has defined his time at the club. 

FFP also includes amortisation of player values though which would be a further issue. Maybe, if you included parachute payments as a general 'loss saving' pot that could be a more useful mechanism. 

If you'd have put it in the 'Beer Thread' I might have found it, still wouldn't have counted tho, mind..

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd be quite as effusive in my praise but Sibley is one of the few attacking talents we have. Once Watson came off against Huddersfield the dynamic of the game changed, we looked like we could score from open play and that was because Sibley was the only one running beyond and stretching their backline. He's a massive asset for us if used correctly and if he gets a yellow card every other game because he's young and ill disciplined for my money it's something that we currently have to live with. From what I've seen he's the best academy talent we've produced out of the bunch that are currently playing and yet we're basically wasting him with sub appearances and playing him out of position. 

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd be quite as effusive in my praise but Sibley is one of the few attacking talents we have. Once Watson came off against Huddersfield the dynamic of the game changed, we looked like we could score from open play and that was because Sibley was the only one running beyond and stretching their backline. He's a massive asset for us if used correctly and if he gets a yellow card every other game because he's young and ill disciplined for my money it's something that we currently have to live with. From what I've seen he's the best academy talent we've produced out of the bunch that are currently playing and yet we're basically wasting him with sub appearances and playing him out of position. 

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd be quite as effusive in my praise but Sibley is one of the few attacking talents we have. Once Watson came off against Huddersfield the dynamic of the game changed, we looked like we could score from open play and that was because Sibley was the only one running beyond and stretching their backline. He's a massive asset for us if used correctly and if he gets a yellow card every other game because he's young and ill disciplined for my money it's something that we currently have to live with. From what I've seen he's the best academy talent we've produced out of the bunch that are currently playing and yet we're basically wasting him with sub appearances and playing him out of position. 

It's a shame that more people haven't had the pleasure of watching him in academy games. He was always the best player on the pitch, often it wasn't even close. The only player that looked remotely close that I can remember was Saka for Arsenal. 
He scored a hattrick because it's within his ability to do that at Championship level. We are talking about giving Ravel Morrison the freedom of Derby to develop and become the player that he has threatened to be. I would love us to do that with Sibley. Young players are going to have bad spells - Jason Knight was rolled out week-in, week-out last season when he was going through it. Sibley doesn't perform miracles within 10 minutes and people say he hasn't done enough. I don't get it personally. 
I am in no doubts whatsoever that Sibley is the best player this club has on its books and the highest ceiling of any Derby player I have ever seen. He is special in exactly what we lack; it's the greatest tragedy in football that we aren't affording him the time to showcase his ability even if he doesn't score a hattrick every game. In my opinion, of course. 

My mum swears like a trooper at the match 

I'm glad you as the appointed leader of the west stand approve of the south stand savages sitting in the west stand ??‍♂️

It's not something I'm proud of and if my mum was uncomfortable with it I obviously wouldn't. But treating her as some sort of shrinking violet who can't hear profanity when she's not seems quite a retrograde attitude towards women in general. Me and my mum are more like friends than anything else and she likes that aspect to our relationship, why would I take that away from her?

This is all a bit surprising given your previous expressions of enthusiasm towards violent disagreement with others btw. 

It's not something I'm proud of and if my mum was uncomfortable with it I obviously wouldn't. But treating her as some sort of shrinking violet who can't hear profanity when she's not seems quite a retrograde attitude towards women in general. Me and my mum are more like friends than anything else and she likes that aspect to our relationship, why would I take that away from her?

This is all a bit surprising given your previous expressions of enthusiasm towards violent disagreement with others btw. 

They’re women, not helpless little creatures!
I’d hold a door open for anybody. I think that’s just generally being polite.