Alph

40 minutes ago, Archied said:

I not one for storming off, but anger just begets anger and as I say I’m only interested in how that stops , I’ve been on the verges of a couple of these marches , watched the footage from many sources and I’m seeing something very different from you 🤷‍♂️

So here you're only responding to my take that the protests are opposing the governments support for Israel. You think those of use who march for peace are either antagonistic or aggressive (maybe racist) or provide cover for a significant number of people who are. I disagree strongly on the first. There are those who are using the protests as a vessel to spread their hate. Hell, there were even those at the countryside alliance march. They exist on St George's Day. 

You've proven the point I'm making. 

Again in this thread I've laid out my beliefs for who I believe can take steps to de-escalate, how partners for peace can be created. And received no objections. But if you say "Hamas did x" and I respond "because Israel did y" then it's me that's the problem. And that's the side of me you want to appeal to. As the government want to appeal to the worst of the protesters. 

Every time somebody in this thread has accused me of being divisive and I've walked it back to laying out my beliefs they've stormed off or what you've done is attack (I use that word for a lack of intelligence being able to find a more suitable word so I apologise) the messengers again. The marches message is ceasefire. There are other messages in there. But the overwhelming point is ceasefire. An end to killing. If only the Government had that as their main message instead of "Self Defence".

I'm happy to keep discussing with you and there's no anger from my end. But if we keep going with this "Protesters good Vs Protesters bad" then 1) we will never agree and 2) they're not really the pressing issue and you said you're not willing to discuss your views until the killing stops?

2 hours ago, Archied said:

We are obviously seeing something different 🤷‍♂️ 

policing of football is very different 

Yes. I am. Now could you respond to my other post please. 

Because here's the thing. There is tit for tat in this thread and sometimes I'm guilty of it and sometimes it is a response. 

For example, when bcnram responded to Comrade's "enough is enough" post with "when Hamas release hostages and Palestinians stop electing Hamas (I mean, they don't for starters). I pointed to the hostages/prisoners that Israel have. Yes, it's tit for tat. Likewise if you was to point to the Palestinians who drove a vehicle into Israelis in Tel Aviv I would point to any of the number of terror attacks on Palestinians. 

Yet you chose to pull me up. As I'm the antagonistic and partisan one who creates division. I'm ok with that by the way. I'm not one for being offended easily. Yet I just found it curious. 

There's three others who do similar. Engage in tit for tat that they call context. But when I do it, it's not context. Ok. So it's tit for tat that's unhelpful. Ok. 

Yet when I lay my beliefs out (you can go back through the thread) then here's what happens. They attack my character, imply I'm antisemtic/antagonistic. Or they claim there's no grounds for reasonable debate and have neither the time nor the will to engage with anything I've said. 

Interestingly you responded to my anger emoji when you implied the vast majority of protests are not sincere in calling for peace. Yet didn't respond to my other post. You even implied that wanting all violence to stop is "not what you want to hear". 

You said you'll discuss your views when there's peace. There wasn't peace before October 7th. 230 Palestinians dead in West Bank in 2023 between Jan and October. 

You and others have come here as neutral just calling for peace. How do we achieve that peace? Well, at the very point I lay out what I think about how to weaken Hamas (that includes some uncomfortable truths about Israel being confronted) then I'm being antagonistic again. 

I've been happy since the thread began (which wasn't by me btw) to discuss a solution and de-escalation. 

Now the protests were/are about opposing our governments position on the conflict. Your attitude towards them reflects the attitude towards me. That they're antagonistic and unhelpful. Ok. So what should people do that they haven't been doing for years? The protests oppose the government who reject a ceasefire. 

At this point what usually happens is someone storms off saying there's no debating with me. There is. But if it involves portraying good Vs evil and nonsense suggestions like Hamas etc can be removed by force then it's not me that promotes division and anarchy, is it?

1 hour ago, Archied said:

I think an angry imogi says a lot 🤷‍♂️

It says that the vibe you're getting and that you're not able to see the sea of banners and chants that include

"Ceasefire now, Stop the Genocide, Not in Our Name, You don't have to be Muslim just Human, Anti Zionism is not Antisemitism, End Occupation, End Apartheid"

angers me. What did you think I meant? That I'm ok with Hamas killing Israelis 

50 minutes ago, Archied said:

Naive , utopian? It’s very easy to be described as such but I just feel very uncomfortable to come on and defend the historical rights and wrongs of either side when innocent people are being slaughtered, I would no more be on the streets waving an Israeli flag when the first killings happened in this latest break out than I would wave a Palestine flag in response to what’s going on now , if the streets were filled with banners and chants for peace then I would be tempted to join in , ive not been on any marches but have been on the fringes ( travelling through ) and that is far from the vibe I’m picking up 🤷🏻‍♂️

The streets have been filled with banners for peace and chants for peace. I'm not sure where you're going but the chant "ceasefire now" is deafening. 

There are idiots. You get idiots at football. If you had 250,000 football fans I suspect you'd get 12 arrests. 

8 hours ago, Archied said:

Perhaps when we all stop focusing and arguing over who threw the first stone , who’s thrown the most stones and make the focus stopping anymore stones being thrown , im sure that’s not what you want to hear but it’s what I see from where I’m standing and that’s coming from someone who has always been considered a weirdo for holding the belief that in the main terrorism is / has been created by pure bullying by the larger richer more powerful states who know the people of other states have not the slightest chance of being anything other than obliterated in what we laughingly call fair and clean war 🤷🏻‍♂️,

as I say ,for me taking and arguing any side other than stop ALL the killing doesn’t get the job done ,it just swells the number on both sides arguing the toss whilst people are dying 🤷🏻‍♂️

"I'm sure that's not what you want to hear". Wtf?

I speak up for Palestine because I want to highlight the violence, draw attention to it and make it stop. I don't support Hamas or any other Palestinians assaults on Israel. Now again, you're telling me that I'm engaging in some tit for tat argument? So I'll say again, who am I arguing with? What's the perspective of someone who disagrees with what I want?

I talk about the environment that creates groups like Hamas. 

The laws that Israel has, the lands it occupies, the control over Gaza... These are things that contribute to  Palestinian unrest. There are other contributors (such as Iran) that I've also mentioned. 

You have to tackle these issues to find peace. You have to give the Palestinians security for them to reject Hamas. 

14 hours ago, Archied said:

 

🤷🏻‍♂️
when the bullets and bombs are stopped ( that’s the priority ) I will be more than happy to debate my political/ ethical position on the issue

And when is that? 

230 Palestinians were killed in 2023 in the West Bank before October 7th. 

I made a list of all the IDF military assaults on Gaza in this thread somewhere. It's quite a list. 

There is no peace. That's the point. There's what's happening now or there's the slow silent death of Palestinians. There's the hot topic of Occupation and Apartheid silenced by accusations of Antisemitism. 

The idea that opposing Israel is antagonistic and creating division isn't a new. Anybody who's supported the Palestinian plight will tell you that this type of smear campaign is as old as the hills. You'll be told you're an antisemite. You're antagonistic. You're an extremist. That you're creating division and inciting violence. Your character will be attacked because it's easier than trying to argue with somebody who simply demands the rights and freedoms we insist that Israelis deserve should also be for the Palestinian people. Because the correct and peaceful position is to support Israel.

That's what Sunak, Truss and Co do. They can't debate with any of the direct points on Occupation, Apartheid laws, war crimes, how to create partners for peace, how to reduce the threat of groups like Hamas in an effective way. They have to attack and smear the opposition. They will not engage in specific topics. 

Yet ask them about Russia. It all becomes very simple then. Straight answers to straight questions. Not complex at all. And those who show support for Ukraine aren't accused of backing groups like Azov. It's a simple case. 

Settler violence? Turning off water? Targeting civilian infrastructure? Mass murder? Killing journalists? Blocking aid?.... "it's self defence! It's complicated! London has gone to the Islamists!! You're creating division!" 

1 hour ago, Archied said:

 

you say everyone is against the killing and it goes without saying ,,, sadly I don’t believe that and I’m sure there plenty turning up waving flags with bad intent and the vibe is not good , 

Not everyone that goes to football is there for the love of sport or to support their team. 

I'll tell you, the vast majority of people who have been on the protests have been about pressuring our country to pressure Israel into a ceasefire. 

There's many there that don't quite understand why. They just see peace as good cause. No problem with that, surely? 

There's many who go too far but are certainly not dangerous. They go too far in that they would have a Palestinian State with the jets and tanks that Israel have. They talk about the Nakba and are lean on the idea that Israel is illegitimate. But we are past that now. There is no realistic solution that returns lands to Palestinian people from the Nakba. They need to understand Israel has to have the strength to defend itself and Palestine can not just be given that military power over night 

Then there's a great many that understand the situation. And all they ask is for the things that are reasonable. A road to peace. International pressure and a fair solution. 

There are Jews (that are called Judenrat by Pro Israeli Jews). There's a huge mix of ordinary people. 

But the government would prefer you see them as you do. It's gaslighting. The real mob supports what you're seeing in Gaza. That's the mob that is violent and dangerous. They're the mob that would tell you that I'm on Pro Hamas marches and I'm antisemitic. That I oppose democracy. That I'm anti British? What? Because I want Britain to stop supporting Israel in plausible genocide and ethnic cleansing? 

4 hours ago, Archied said:

Whilst I agree and understand your post I do question whether it does anything other than perpetuate division and a partisan feel ( I’m sure you don’t do this purposely) , in reply the next poster can come on and give examples that can’t be denied from the other side and back and forth back and forth ,

the atmosphere on our streets has honestly really concerned me since the start of this latest conflict and yet I’ve not really been able to square that feeling with the fact that I’m very very anti what’s going on in the Middle East and trying to work it out I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that it’s the manner of the protests , im seeing Palestine flags , free free Palestine chants , river to the sea chanted and I think that’s it for me , if I was seeing massive anti killing banners and chants for our gov to do everything in its power to bring pressure to bear on ALL parties to stop the killing , return hostages and perhaps even a United Nations force on the ground to police things until some workable peace can be found then that intimidates no one , taking to the streets waving flags of another country thousands of miles away doesn’t feel that comfortable to me , it feels more like side taking in a situation that is historically a mess and hugely sectarian based , im sure the vast majority are sickened by the deaths and misery going on but there is a vibe that is frankly quite scary 

If I come across as creating division then I'd ask what it is that somebody disagrees with me on.

You're suggesting I could be in a tit for tat argument that sews division. I'd ask who would I be in that argument with? Because if you said to me that Israel has the right to exist, the right to self defence and national security then I'd agree. 

The problem comes when either I demand the same for Palestinians (which makes anybody who disagrees a Zionist POS)

or when we talk about how to achieve that. Because as soon as I point to settler violence, illegal occupation and Apartheid law then I become aggressive and confrontational. Yet if somebody points out that Hamas are a roadblock to peace you won't find any argument from me. I'd only ask how you think Hamas can be removed by force. 

I'm Pro Palestinian to the point of a secure state for Palestinians where they are not dictated to by their enemies. No further. I don't reject the existence of Israel and I recognise that this is the view of many Palestinians. But I'm not supporting that. That's just a position I understand (and disagree with) in the same way I understand Israelis that also fully support Netenyahu. But this is where the international community demands a standard from both (except it doesn't)

I'm not saying that the road to a Palestinian State isn't a long hard complex solution. But I would like to know how it's unreasonable, threatening, antisemtic etc. 

.......

As for the atmosphere on our streets. The protests are peaceful. There are more arrests at football. This doesn't mean that they don't have potential to become violent. 

However, the absolutely disgusting right wing government absolutely has encouraged division. They're a disgrace. 

And take a look at their position on Gaza. They send weapons to Israel, they acknowledge the war crimes (often by accident) and they cut aid for the Palestinians. While telling you that the protests (which to this day have been overwhelmingly peaceful where I can walk side by side with Jews on the issue) are the villains. 

No. They are the villains. The problem is that they ignore the will of the people and what happens when the will of the people is ignored? The people go to more extreme lengths. That's the danger here. 

If you or anyone else has a bigger problem with those who shout for justice and peace while waving the flags of another country on our streets (the streets of a country that actively supports the IDF) than with the government then that frightens me. 

The gaslighting of those who oppose war by those who support it is a masterstroke by scum like Suella Braverman, Truss, Sunak, Anderson etc

3 hours ago, bcnram said:

Probably when they return the hostages and stop voting a terrorist organisation to run their country. Not saying it is right, but they couldn’t have hoped that their actions would not lead to the Israeli reaction. Hamas and those who support them in Palestine also have blood on their hands. 

Your first sentence fits Israel pretty good. The hostages would be those they have imprisoned without charge or charged with protesting the illegal occupation of their land of an Apartheid State. The Likud party and Netenyahu fit the terrorist description pretty well. They were elected in this "democracy". 

You know what happens without Hamas? Israeli occupation. 

What is Hamas? Well, tomorrow they're Palestinians who are digging their families out of rubble today. The Palestinians who have family members imprisoned for throwing stones as their homes are bulldozed. The Palestinians who were born into Hamas ran Gaza and have known only oppression by Israel. 

Hamas have blood on their hands. I've said throughout the thread that they need to be removed (or reformed maybe) into something Israel can make peace with. But they can not be destroyed because they're an ideology. A resistance to the Zionists who refer to lands by ancient name and encourage violence and intimidation to claim that land. You must destroy the Palestinians entirely. Or they must be given a reason to reject Hamas. 

In the last few months everybody has seen what it is that the Zionists are about. Sure, the scale of attacks on Palestinians has increased. But nothing new has happened. How many Palestinians died before October 7th in 2023? Nobody knows without googling it. This is not about hostages for Netenyahu. It's not about October 7th. And if he wanted to destroy Hamas then he wouldn't have propped them up. Why did he prop them up? Because he wanted to split Palestinian power. Create division. Why? Because he, like those in his party, want a "Greater Israel". 

1 hour ago, Chellaston Ram said:

I understand how you feel Scott , I lost my wife with cancer 4 weeks ago after a 17 month battle, in her last few weeks I missed a few games as I couldn’t face going to the match and trying to enjoy it. Time is a great healer, I have started going again now and gradually getting back to my normal match day routine. 

It hurts to even imagine.

Never know what to say to people who lose loved ones. The sad face emoji doesn't seem right but it's the best we have when the only other thing I can think of is "sorry for your loss" but I've never liked saying or hearing that. 

In a RL situation it would be "call if you need a cuppa and a chat". Here we just have the thread. You'll have to make your own cuppa too. 

9 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I think the main excitment of the season is going to be "Can Yuki ruin the Danny Red Bull return?" - the warm down lap stuff was hilarious but it's clear Yuki has been told he's got to finish ahead of Ricciardo to stay in F1. That and just endless laughing at Alpine.

By contrast, the WEC race was pretty good, with Porsche takeing over the Toyota role in the top class.

 

Don't say that mate. I don't mind watching a race for 2nd but if the highlight of the season is going to be who's the best driver out of 2 'meh' drivers at pretty hopeless team... Oh god.

Is it wrong though that I want Yuki to beat Danny Ric? 

I know DC is a nice fella but he's had so many free passes for being smiley that beating Tsunoda shouldn't land him a seat at RBR when there's guys who are actually deserving of a chance. 

Feels mean but he's had more than enough opportunities and too many excuses are provided for him. 

13 minutes ago, David said:

Not sure he will be overly happy.

But Verstappen's father, Jos, told the Daily Mail: "There is tension here while he (Horner) remains in position.

"The team is in danger of being torn apart. It can't go on the way it is. It will explode. He is playing the victim, when he is the one causing the problems."

https://news.sky.com/story/formula-1-red-bull-team-risks-being-torn-apart-if-christian-horner-stays-in-charge-says-max-verstappens-dad-13086467

I don't feel sorry for Horner but I doubt Daddy Verstappen is motivated by anger at some sleazy behaviour. Pretty low the way someone is going after him. 

He's such a cheerleader for Max I would have thought Geri was  expecting the news story of Max/Horner affair to be the scandal coming out. 

Very boring wasn't it? 

I'm not sure anyone should be happy except Verstappen. 

Next week Israel will claim something else that we (governments, mainstream media) will take as the truth until proven a lie. 

Meanwhile we'll cast doubt on all Palestinian claims and gaslight anyone who dares flip it the other way. 

Well Lando, Leclerc, Sainz, Norris and Hamilton felt they had more to give so that's not too depressing. 

Not hard to imagine a tighter constructors championship with RBR only having one driver. I bet they'll be tantrums if there's consistent podiums for the likes of Ferrari. 

So it's not all doom and gloom. 

I saw a comment that praised Alpine for showing solidarity with French farmers by sending tractors to compete. 

Israel expressing it's right to self defence against starving Palestinians. Opening fire on crowds.

Classic IDF banter.

2 hours ago, Archied said:

We will go round in circles until we all accept the war is a crime and those at the top who wage it are criminals,,, never mind war crimes

I want to agree. 

But we have to accept self defence (Ukraine) is justified

Problem is that when anybody declares war it's always for self defence, national security, regional interests etc. 

And even when it's opposed there's often enough support in the echo chambers to support preemptive strikes and "military operations". 

Look at the gaslighting on the protesters against the Iraq war. 

The other weekend approx 250,000 people marched in London. There were 12 arrests. Look how they're spoken about. Look how warmongers talk about these demonstrations being disruptive to peace and democracy 

When a tyrant convinces enough people that Kurds/Jews need to be eradicated then what do you do? Spectate? 

I do think wars can be justified. But it's too easy to blur the lines. Skirt around international laws. With a touch of provocation you can self defence yourself to having military bases across the globe. 

When parents we know are desperate to use autism or ADHD to excuse their child's awful behaviour. 

In my head it would be something that I'd explore after I've put effort into parenting. Not before.

It's hard to be understanding when one kid has pushed other kids off the bouncy castle all day while you occasionally mutter "oh George, don't do that please" while having your eyes glued to TikTok/Insta

The only thing the SNP did/said that was wrong was that they stormed off in a tantrum. More offended by not being able to vote on their own motion on their own day. It's understandable. But the issue was bigger and more desperate than procedure. They should have at least supported the labour amendment for the sake of Gazans. 

Hoyle apologised. Said what he did was wrong. Then pooped on them again. The SNP concluded that Israel is guilty of war crimes. Which they are. But then you've got people who are more angry at the SNP for being angry than they are about ethnic cleansing, war crimes and potentially genocide. They'll complain about the brightness of the sun if it avoids talking about the slaughter. 

It's something we see a lot of. Hypocrisy with the stance on Ukraine/Russia. The hunt for Antisemitism where it doesn't exist (there's plenty out there without using it as a shield to defend an abhorrent position) while blatant Islamophobia in the House (that's the second time this year) is given the airbrush treatment. 

Hoyle, of course, did it for the safety of MPs. Given all the ducking and weaving these lot have done. Given the position that the rest of the world is taking. Given the outrageous comments by MPs. I call a steaming pile of bs. Because I think it's more likely that he's falling in line with the eagerness from our politicians to offer political and military support for Israel. Which continues by the way. So let's skip the part where we pretend to be shocked at any such accusation. 

God forbid the UK officially call out Israel on war crimes. They're clearly not guilty....

Lindsay Hoyle apologised. Said he made a mistake. But clearly he didn't make a mistake. He's doubled down on it. 

The protection offered to Israel is disgusting. They can't even call out Islamophobia now when it's blatant but have been smearing everyone opposed to the mass murder as antisemtic. Still we send them weapons. 

We condemn Houthi attacks in shipping lanes. But we can't condemn Israel blocking aid trucks. The world is pretty much united in a ceasefire. The world has seen enough murdered Palestinians. But not America or Britain. They stand isolated in support of Israel. Calling Peace Protests "Hamas supporters". Crying about the chants of "From the River to the sea" while the Likud Party policy is the exact same. 

The Iraq war was shameful. This? This is complicity in ethnic cleansing and collective punishment. Perhaps genocide. That's what our politicians are about. 

Anybody who tries to muddy the waters with this "self defence" or "collateral damage" or any despicable gaslighting bs... You should be ashamed of yourselves. 

Looks like GGG has retired. 

Good. Before somebody he would have whooped 5 years ago manages to outpoint him by being young and fresh. 

20 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

Barking mad. 

 

I saw her whole CPAC speech. You have to admit she has a point

The Radical Islamist Party is proving hugely popular with the Trans activists. It's quite frightening. You look at these Pro Hamas marches now and you've got all the Pride flags everywhere. Really grinds my gears. Left wing extremism has gone too far. The banks are in on it. The EU are pushing it. 

I always said it. Liz Truss was the right woman at the wrong time. When she comes again it will be when we need her. With Farage by her side. Assuming he doesn't become too left wing for her before then. 

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

This is one of those areas where we do agree, @Archied. I hate the idea of people being gagged as much as I hate the idea of book-burning , people being chastised/persecuted/shot for their beliefs, people's beliefs being thrust upon others etc.

It's difficult knowing where to draw the line on what constitutes 'hate-speech' and at what point it becomes incitement.

Saying that, I think that David Icke is, by and large, a harmless crackpot.

The line should be drawn just before Liz Truss steps up to a microphone?

(Joking btw, let it all be heard)

8 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

She ain't!

 

With respect, I'm going to respond to this... particularly the emboldened bit... on a personal level... mate to mate...

... and all whilst posting on an internet forum built specifically to discuss matters far and wide, and therefore being a little contradictory/hypocritical.  (Me, not you!)...

 

1/  It ain't your problem.
2/  There ain't nothing you can do about it.
3/  Your opinion... if and when you make one... won't have the slightest bearing on any outcome... should an outcome ever be reached.
 

And now for something far more important, and yet so far off topic I risk a ban...

IMO... In my opinion... IN MY OPINION!!!...

4/  Far too many people worry/concern themselves/give consideration to stuff that they can do nothing about.
5/  I'm surrounded by folk (Out here in real life) that analyse the feck out of such stuff with one hand, whilst with the other hand, throw hints and claims relating to mental infirmities/stress/lack of sleep/mentally-related health issues/anxiety/etc/etc.

I truly believe the two go hand in hand.* 
My boss in particular, and my wife to a lesser extent, are both "guilty" of the above.  As are others a little further out in my life.
If anything in life "drives me crazy", it's this! 

"Why analyse it"?  I cry!  "Why lie awake thinking about it?".  "Why make yourself ill over it?" "How the hell is this ever going to affect your life?  It ain't, so let it go"!
Chill.  Relax.  Enjoy the good which is all around us.  

"Mental health" is going through the roof!  We don't help ourselves.

 

*I fully appreciate there are those out there who of course, have mental health issues effected/caused by actual problems directly affecting them, and which they cannot solve.
Let's concentrate our efforts on helping them.  I'm a big fan of that (And family history, hopefully all in the past now, touch wood!)

Analysing and/or worrying about stuff nigh on a stratosphere away is not healthy... I repeat... In my opinion!

 

 

There.  I feel better now!  👀

#chilledasfeck,me!

🤍

That's me told!! 

I agree btw. 🤣

5 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

To be honest, I'm trying to care less about what happens to her but don't think it's possible.

But imagine if she was your problem to make a decision on. What would you say? 

I'm in the conflicted as feckery camp.