Oldben
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Posts posted by Oldben
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Further unfairness towards derby occurs.
Already unfairness over readings treatment compared to Derby.
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Taking over the club is just the start, by next season the team needs its rebuild to be in place because if there's a 15 point deduction, then the teams already challenged and it needs to be at least as strong as the top 4 teams currently in League one which is Wigan, mk dons, Rotherham and Plymouth.
Derby will lose a lot of players in the summer.
No recognised striker, let alone the 20 goals a season striker needed for league one.
No defensive team, midfield team or even a quality goalkeeper.
It's a huge rebuild.
Estimate at least 10 million.
Can't sign the best free agents as they will go else where.
Can't get the best loans as they will go else where.
Need to turn derby back into a team that players want to join, need to be strong enough to challenge for at least a play off position.
Need to sign the best available youth players to rebuild the academy.
Kirchner says in the Det there's a lot of work to do.
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1 hour ago, CornwallRam said:
If the takeover gets sorted quickly, we will be able to re-sign any players that are willing. I'd guess that we'll have more like 15 players. It'll still need a big rebuild, but at least we should have the core of a squad.
I didn't count the current squad, because I don't rate many of them.
Now I'm concerned about who can be found to buy the stadium as that's not included in Kirchners bid.
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30 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said:
He’ll be the owner, not the CEO. Garry Cook (ex Man City) likely CEO.
Great if that's true!
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One concern I have about kirchner is could he do an MM.
In my opinion, Mm didn't have a footballing brain, he did seem to have the right footballing advisors around him.
Kirchner would need someone very knowledgeable about football to help advise him on footballing decisions at the football club management level.
Then he needs a seriously gifted scouting team, because somehow he's got to rebuild a team that wasn't good enough to compete in the Championship and now its down to circa 4 or 5 players in the summer and most of those you would want to consider whether to move on as they probably weren't the star performers.
There's literally no area of the team that doesn't need a rebuild if the game plan is to escape league one in a season.
Escape league one because there's no decent financial return in League one.
To escape derby have to beat the best teams in League one, a quality team must be built to do that.
You cant build a quality team at Derby with the sorts of players that Derby were forced to sign this season.
If we need 11 new players of quality thats a big challenge to get thar done in the summer.
You can't sign the best free agents as those players don't want a league one team.
If there's a 15 point deduction from the efl, that's a greater need for a quality team.
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Is Simon Jordan right, is kirchner worth 7 billion?
In any case, glad if derby finally gets saved.
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1 hour ago, jono said:
You’ve got quite an axe to grind haven’t you. No one denies Mel gambled and lost; costing us all this heartache and him a shed load of dosh. The singular, blinkered outlook you project, despite this, is frankly risible.
We all complained vociferously at Bieliks signing - or did we ?
Of course Covid never happened - fake news
Of course we “chose” not to apply for Covid relief - I mean you just wouldn’t would you
Middlesbrough owner wasn’t on a mission as a self appointed saint of all moral behaviour
Coughig isn’t a cheap chancer.
HMRC allowed the debt to climb to these levels … why ? Are they devoid of responsibility? They have powers beyond belief. So who messed up in their camp ? Or did they hand us a rope and point to a handily placed beam ?
The EFL behaved impeccably while investigating our FFP violations and treated us with huge respect and honesty. At no time were they ever swayed by other members and they resisted threats to their organisation with heroic impartiality. They exercised balance and proportional behaviour at all times in applying sanctions, accepting arbitration decisions with equanimity. REALLY ?
The finances of football in general and the Championship in particular aren’t twisted and dysfunctional for all but the parachute clubs. Noooo of course not.
Yeah but it’s all Mel’s fault cos his name was on the door and he took out pay day loans in the vain hope of most gamblers
for gods sake get some perspective
I will gladly accept your logic here, but hope that's not all amounting to a final epitaph.
If a football regulator with enough powers existed, would it have stopped MM going doing this path.
Would things have been allowed to get so bad with the hmrc.
Would MB/W have been allowed to attack a club that through its financial situation could offer little defence.
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27 minutes ago, ram59 said:
My argument isn't flawed, maybe MM's is though. I can understand him begrudging another rich person getting the stadium on the cheap, in his opinion.
£20M is cheap, if you consider the cost of building a modern stadium, that needs very little spent on it to host premier league football. On the most recent ground completion, Brentford's new ground with half the capacity cost £71M and Everton's new ground with a 53,000 capacity has a projected cost of £500M. So, yes I can see why MM might feel that he's 'giving' the ground away at £20M.
As you say, he is the reason that he's in this situation, but doesn't stop him wanting to limit the damage, just as one of us getting the sack for gross misconduct and having to sell your home, we wouldn't like to sell it for a fraction of it's worth, even though we're in that position because of our own actions, like MM is.
Largely irrelevant, because of the actions of MM on this the clubs now valued beyond what any league one club is worth and probably what most championship clubs are worth.
How is derby with as little as it currently has to offer, valued at 60 to 70 million.
No wonder the club cant find a buyer.
- strawhillram and RAM1966
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That's a shame, a council without a business head on.
There's profit in owning the stadium.
Plus derby receives 100 million a year from investment surrounding derby county fc, the city would lose that income if derby folds.
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3 hours ago, ram59 said:
Agreed, I don't think the sale will go through until our fate is known, unless the bidders have been asked to submit 2 bids each, one based on championship football and one lg1. This could complicate matters whereby the PB for the championship could be different to the PB for lg1.
Regarding the sale of PP, I can see MM's side of the argument. If he accepts a low price, he is not giving the stadium to us, he's giving to some very rich people at a bargain price. However, he could accept a low price off the council and in effect give it to the people of Derbyshire at a low price. At the figures being discussed, the ground would give a decent annual return on the investment, with the possibility of selling the ground to the clubs owners in better times, for a considerable profit.
Your arguments flawed here, seriously giving to some rich guys the stadium, hardly giving at 20 million.
Plus mm is responsible at least to a major degree for the huge debt and the mess with the efl.
The mess with mb/w is also on him.
We owe hmrc 30 million largely because of him.
We owe arsenal fc 8 million largely on him, because of mm poor decision to bring in a player of that value.
We owe msd 30 million, largely on him.
Having placed the club into this much debt, and them what, he's right to blame buyers for leaving the club in administration and being responsible at least in part for the 21 points dished out by the efl.
Creating that much debt, creating an atmosphere of fear over will the club continue to exist.
Now it's OK for mm to get some money for the stadium.
Does the money for the stadium at least involve the repayment of the msd loan? No, it doesn't.
And for that matter who is mm other than a rich guy who played us for fools and bankrupted the club he says he loves.
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1 hour ago, StarterForTen said:
As Mel is in danger of discovering, a football stadium without a football club in it ISN'T an asset - it's a white elephant.
From a day-to-day business cost perspective, a stadium lease negotiated on favourable terms (ie circa 4% of real estate value and with all revenue streams to the tenant) is the best way to go.
However, I suspect most of those considering buying the club want the stadium included as it gives them bricks and mortar against which to borrow.
For example... Negotiate a purchase of club and stadium for £30m and then arrange a £30m commercial mortgage at 6%, the £150k/month interest repayments to be met by the club from future incomes = true cost of cash required for individual for purchase club and stadium of £nil.
Let's be honest, the Glazers did it to buy Manchester United with it's own future revenues so it's hardly rocket science.
Binnie brothers said they would offer 30 million without the stadium included.
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The council could buy the stadium for Derby, but could seek a financial backer to help with cost.
Potentially they could ask fans to raise part of the money to help with this.
What's the total value of the season tickets, if they asked fans to pay double the price for next season with half the money going towards buying a proportion of the ground.
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59 minutes ago, Carnero said:
Council buying the stadium and leasing it back with a purchase options is a great idea.
We've got some weird ducking 'supporters' on here, determined to find a problem with every solution ?
Smart move by the council.
Yes it's expensive initially, but I think the investment return would be a lot better than investing in government bonds or a bank at this time.
Stock markets highly volatile, bricks and mortar seems a good idea.
Derby county is supposedly worth 100 million a year to Derby, so saving that income stream helps.
I think that they could also look at selling different % of the club to the owners over a given period of time, that could attract the new owners.
https://www.propertyweek.com/news-analysis/who-owns-premier-league-stadiums/5090883.article
Brighton, newcastle, Manchester City, Swansea are examples of where the local authority owns the football stadium and makes money from the ground.
- Andicis, Miggins, r_wilcockson and 3 others
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2 hours ago, Gaspode said:
But if you turn that on it's head, thatt's pretty much all one of the bidders gets if they pay £30M+ - no wonder wer're struggling to get any proper interest.....
It's not for that it's for revenue generation (if in the championship), and greater still if in the Premier league.
Championship promotion player off winner receives more than 50 million, and then there's the millions per year for 3 guaranteed years if relegated from the Premier league.
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If MA is only willing to pay 15p on the pound, then the Q cant accept that offer.
It doesn't look great for Derby.
If MSD and HMRC wont reduce their demands, and there's no way Q will find a better offer than the offers that have been made.
That doesn't look good for Derby.
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https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/20025886.bury-company-director-disqualified-168-000-owed-taxman/
Could mm face similar, then maybe he helps derby survive rather than this approach.
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31 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:
I think if it was a simple case of who was offering the most cash, we'd have had a decision made by now. Obviously, there's still a chance there's a game of brinkmanship going on, with Quantuma trying to push up the price and the bidders holding on for a last minute bargain etc.
But I think the most likely issue is that there's a query of some sort with one or more of the bids that are making Quantuma unsure as to which is the best. Ed Dawes mentioned on Radio Derby last week (I think it was Ed anyway), that Appleby's original financer had dropped out, but he'd got someone else in instead. If Quantuma are having to re-do all of their due diligence on their source of finance, that could delay things. Or if they think the new guy is risky for some reason, they might prefer to go for say a lower Ashley bid because it's safer (i.e. they don't want a fake sheikh situation where they agree a bid and the money never turns up). There are any number of other potential reasons too - if one bid is for more, but over a longer period of time, that could cause issues if creditors prefer one or the other, for example.
It's naïve to think that the bids are just bits of paper with a single number written on them, that you can do a simple comparison on.
There are two bids, none come close to pb status due to stadium cost.
One is likely to be from Ashley and the other Appleby (with new American financing).
In any case if Mm gave pride park for free, then the deals done.
If the bidders agree to ignore pride Park and rent another ground, then the deal might be done.
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53 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:
I personally think that £50m for a club, a top ground and top training facilities IS a good deal.
The problem is the ongoing funding and timescale to make it great again
It's more than 50 million because it requires a complete squad overhaul, and any buyer would need the training ground.
It requires buying quality to escape league one, there's no promotion if the clubs buying in has beens and no hopes.
Buying the club for x millions and then stagnating in League one will not be of interest to buyers.
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The administrators need to consider selling derby without the stadium.
Derby can rent a stadium in the area to use.
Less crowd though
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2 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:
I do say that. The open letter from MM to Gibbo got the ball rolling on a settlement and that process should have been initiated by Q in 2021. Couhig and Gibson both said no one made contact with them about the claims for months. Dealing with them should have been a priority
I don’t think your contention about the cram down holds water. @Oldbenposted a marketing circular by a law firm - from 2019 I believe - where they wrote about schemes of arrangement and how they work. The paper went on to say that where football creditors are concerned, schemes might not provide a full solution because the compromise might contravene the FC rule.
Q’s proposal was no different.
None of us is in a position to say whether the EFl was wrong or right in its analysis. This is because it turns on the insolvency policy which we have not seen. But at best it was a grey area and Q needed to ensure EFL was onside with Q’s analysis well in advance of Q putting all their eggs in one basket (and telling Rooney he’d be able to sign players after the famous Thursday meeting with EFL). It was a train wreck of monumental proportions which demonstrated that Q and its advisers had not spotted the dangers outlined in the circular Oldben posted.
I’m not saying at all that the EFL are blameless. They were weak in dealing with the Gibbo claim (and they are now paying the price). But their view on the cram down would simply have come from their legal team and it’s not a view anyone should have been surprised by.
I wonder if what's usual applies here, the biggest issue is that a clubs never been placed in administration, owing what derby owes and I think not even close to the size of debt.
If Derby are liquidated, could mm be told that he can't be a company director.
That might influence mm decision to further help Derby?
https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/20025886.bury-company-director-disqualified-168-000-owed-taxman/
The Administration Thread
in Derby County Forum
Posted
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/chris-kirchner-net-worth-derby-6917426
If its true, I'm worried.