Stive Pesley

Ok - that's where we differ then.
I think we should let all individuals (judged clinically capable of adult thought) choose what medical procedures and interventions they take
You want to deny that individual freedom and impose your will on them instead - just because you think you know what is best
 

I get what you are saying re the public interest angle. There is also the Internet speculation angle which we saw recently with an Everton player that was arrested for an under age offence who was not named publicly but was widely named on social media.
I’m unaware of the Tory MP you refer to but wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case, some people have friends in higher places than others.
It’s a difficult one alright and I’m in no way attempting to defend this man, I would just feel more comfortable if he (and all others accused of this kind of crime) remained anonymous until the legal procedure has taken it’s due course and has determined his/their innocence or guilt.

But I still think that 1 & 2 are factually misrepresented. It's not a new plan that has been drawn-up. The NHS guidelines have allowed children 12 to 15 to be receive ANY medical procedure without parental consent for a long time. But the key point being missed is that, in order for it to happen, the child in question has to convince a medical professional that they fully understand everything about the procedure, including the risks, and have an ability to clearly explain their rationale. There are clear and strict guidelines to follow, and even the slightest cause for doubt is enough to deny the child's request. Essentially the child has to prove themselves mature enough to show adult thinking - for 12-15 yr olds, that's pretty rare
So the number of 12-15 year olds who may end up getting the covid vaccine without parental consent is very very low - and would only apply in cases where the child is able to prove themselves Gillick competent (ie capable of adult thinking)
Therefore it's not "shocking" - in actual fact, you are denying someone their freedom of choice if you are against it. And that's far worse
You surprise me actually @maxjambecause you're normally pro-freedom. I know from previous conversations that we both have older kids who have decided against taking the vaccine, and we're both OK with that being their choice, because we fundamentally believe people should be able to choose
I'm wondering if you feel it's shocking simply because that's what the sensationalist media want you to feel?
 
 

If he is guilty, by all means it should be made public but what if he is innocent ? Should his name have been put in the public domain ? I’m not sure. It’s not shoplifting we’re addressing here, it’s one of the most serious crimes a man can be accused of and so I wonder if anonymity should be the name of the game until proven guilty, that’s all.

Gillick competence tests are a robust, well thought-out and necessary part of all medical processes for children 12-15, and I don't see the Covid vaccine as causing too much trouble here (in real life at least - i do expect to see a lot of ill-informed hot air from antivaxxers and Talk Radio listeners about )
Think about the scenarios and outcomes here - which one is bad? 
 
 

But I still think that 1 & 2 are factually misrepresented. It's not a new plan that has been drawn-up. The NHS guidelines have allowed children 12 to 15 to be receive ANY medical procedure without parental consent for a long time. But the key point being missed is that, in order for it to happen, the child in question has to convince a medical professional that they fully understand everything about the procedure, including the risks, and have an ability to clearly explain their rationale. There are clear and strict guidelines to follow, and even the slightest cause for doubt is enough to deny the child's request. Essentially the child has to prove themselves mature enough to show adult thinking - for 12-15 yr olds, that's pretty rare
So the number of 12-15 year olds who may end up getting the covid vaccine without parental consent is very very low - and would only apply in cases where the child is able to prove themselves Gillick competent (ie capable of adult thinking)
Therefore it's not "shocking" - in actual fact, you are denying someone their freedom of choice if you are against it. And that's far worse
You surprise me actually @maxjambecause you're normally pro-freedom. I know from previous conversations that we both have older kids who have decided against taking the vaccine, and we're both OK with that being their choice, because we fundamentally believe people should be able to choose
I'm wondering if you feel it's shocking simply because that's what the sensationalist media want you to feel?
 
 

But I still think that 1 & 2 are factually misrepresented. It's not a new plan that has been drawn-up. The NHS guidelines have allowed children 12 to 15 to be receive ANY medical procedure without parental consent for a long time. But the key point being missed is that, in order for it to happen, the child in question has to convince a medical professional that they fully understand everything about the procedure, including the risks, and have an ability to clearly explain their rationale. There are clear and strict guidelines to follow, and even the slightest cause for doubt is enough to deny the child's request. Essentially the child has to prove themselves mature enough to show adult thinking - for 12-15 yr olds, that's pretty rare
So the number of 12-15 year olds who may end up getting the covid vaccine without parental consent is very very low - and would only apply in cases where the child is able to prove themselves Gillick competent (ie capable of adult thinking)
Therefore it's not "shocking" - in actual fact, you are denying someone their freedom of choice if you are against it. And that's far worse
You surprise me actually @maxjambecause you're normally pro-freedom. I know from previous conversations that we both have older kids who have decided against taking the vaccine, and we're both OK with that being their choice, because we fundamentally believe people should be able to choose
I'm wondering if you feel it's shocking simply because that's what the sensationalist media want you to feel?
 
 

I agree with that. Of course.
That's what I said. It's being considered, though, along with loads of other options and the clickbait media just latched onto the most controversial option as usual and tried to create a storm (and advertising revenue) from it.

Gillick competence tests are a robust, well thought-out and necessary part of all medical processes for children 12-15, and I don't see the Covid vaccine as causing too much trouble here (in real life at least - i do expect to see a lot of ill-informed hot air from antivaxxers and Talk Radio listeners about )
Think about the scenarios and outcomes here - which one is bad? 
 
 

Still no comment whatsoever from "the top"
@David when are you going to put the minutes up from the meeting ?
 

That doesn’t say anything about not needing consent.

?‍♂️ think ive been the victim of mistaken identity ??

Alarmist & sensationalist clickbait rubbish. No offence to you.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this for weeks now. Fortunately the vaccine is keeping hospitslisations and deaths down, so we've been able to remove the measures that you disagreed with. By using a vaccine you also seem to disagree with ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️
Whilst you aren't intending to be insensitive, I often cringe reading your posts and hope know one who has lost loved ones is reading them. They probably are though.
In terms of 2 tiers, I imagine most pro-lockdown people would also want all people supported with furlough, as it's how Covid was suppressed. It's pretty difficult to follow your opinions really as many of then are contradictory. 

Bit awkward when you've spent most of the last year on this thread telling everyone that it is already? 

Indeed - deaths aside, the worst thing about this pandemic is that it happened in the age of social media

You're joking right? Without social media I would never have known I was a distasteful, selfish, granny killer!

Indeed - deaths aside, the worst thing about this pandemic is that it happened in the age of social media

I read so many different opinions on this thread and I agree and disagree with them in equal proportions. I've been double jabbed although whether or not I will regret that decision in the future depends on whether or not I develop some condition which is proven to be vaccine related. The decisions I have taken regarding my own health have been based on what I have heard and read from scientists and medics. I know that this information can only be based on what we know at present and that experts are still experimenting and learning from statistics as they become available but at present I can only act on what I have heard, knowing that it is an incomplete understanding. No doubt at some point (hopefully sooner than later) we will understand much more about this virus, but at present each person has to act on what they perceive to be the best course of action at a particular time depending on family circumstances. This virus struck quickly and the response was to develop a quick vaccine to deal with the short term problem. How this will pan out in terms of possible health difficulties in the long term I really don't know.
But that is my point. It would be much better if we could respect each others opinions without resorting to intolerance. Everyone on this thread has an opinion based on experience, mind-set, personal circumstances etc. Conspiracy theories?  None of us (I think) are scientists, experts, medical professionals. We are a disparate group of people, united by our love for Derby County and whilst we put forward opinions, none of us really know. Keep safe!❤️

That's the problem with all these purported ITK merchants who peddle their crap - a broken clock is right twice a day. At some point they will get something right if they spew their nonsense for long enough.
Wasn't aimed at yourself btw @Ellafella just in general all these cod ITK accounts on Twitter especially.

Well if all the players are double-jabbed they won't have to isolate any more. Maybe we'll see who the squad anti-vaxxers are!

Yeah I felt like that with some posters in the old Politics thread ?

I once made a complaint about consistent homophobic comments from a guy on the row behind me and the club very generously offered to let me move seats ?

The guy has had actual experience rather than led by propaganda, why is there a need to spin every story to meet an agenda

Different perspectives though. For me, I feel I have learned a lot about enjoying lifes 'simple pleasures' and how actually I feel happier without the pressure to fill weekends with trips, activities and socialising. For me this IS freedom! I have discovered how little I need to be happy and what is truly important in life. ?