Asanovic70

Stolen from the tinternet

I have about 1% sympathy with Mel here. We’re all hindsight merchants. No one was really complaining when he spent the money. He backed a promotion bid and showed ambition you cannot fault him for that. He didn’t interfere massively with the recruitment strategy just backed his team and his managers (of which there were too many he did get that wrong) to get it right. They got it wrong and badly wrong, so I think it would be harsh to lay all that at Mel’s door.
The disparity of parachute payments meant we needed to spend money to compete, with better regulation and a more even playing field would we have avoided the situation we’re in - quite possibly. 
 
The financial position we are in is no different to the majority of other clubs in the championship trying to compete against the parachute funded teams. Apart from one fundamental difference, the other championship owners are standing behind their debts. Mel either can’t (in which case he should have been more prudent in the first place) or wont, making the sale of the club incredibly difficult and putting the future of the club in severe jeopardy, at best being relegated and set back a few years at worst extinct. 
No problem with the action Mel took while running the club and we would all be hypocrites to criticise but walking away with no accountability leaving the club in this state is completely irresponsible and unforgivable. It’s his actions since September that have defined his tenure 

Well frankly that’s rubbish from Mel. 
 
I questioned the signing of butterfield at the time we had hendrick who I thought was better and younger. 
 
so that’s rubbish to say the fans were wanting the likes of butterfield signed.

Its really important to try to finish this season without defeats every week, it's so hard to return to a winning mentality overnight 

Not well-versed in finance, but Derby have been in financial problems before (we seem twinned, I am always losing money to bet365). Perhaps we need to make an agreement with the HMRC to pay the entire sum in full, but that half of it is received at once & the remainder is paid in instalments (staggered) over a set/agreed time period between both parties, as well as an agreement in principle that more will be paid in the event of a successful sale of a player for a good fee, a particularly good cup run (you never know/wishful thinking) - just like loans can be repaid early.
This might offer prospective purchasers a bit more wiggle room. It is still a lot of money to find during a season but @Ravabeerbelly's posts were interesting & chastening reading*, but if we/the administrators show that we are committed to paying the debt in full (painful as that is), then they may begin to show a bit more flexibility regarding scheduling of repayments over a period of say, 4 years (5 at most if possible) with the proviso that the club doesn't want such an albatross hanging around its neck indefinitely either. In the meantime, any new incoming owner might actually attract others to join him or invest, just like we had the LoG, or GSE attempted to attract investors. This investment could see money reassigned elsewhere to paying debts/the HMRC.
The HMRC may be playing hard-ball if we are appearing to ask for a reduction in what is a test case. In the end, none of us want Derby to get liquidated and in a worse case scenario, a re-founded club would emerge, but if we are seen to be accepting of the full amount owed and simply asking for a bit of common-sense in terms of how it is paid, then perhaps they may be more accommodating.
Much mockery of our 11pts was made, but half of our PL revenue was assigned to pay off the long-standing debt of £53m+ rather than on signings. It was probably the only plus of that dreadful season & a sensible, if pragmatic decision. Perhaps this could be used as evidence to show that the club has made good on pay outstanding debts when in a financial position to do so.
* He was basically telling the lay-person like myself, or consoling our bitter disappointment at seeing our best players picked off in a January fire-sale with the fact that it is the club which is the going concern, along & its fan-base

"Mel Morris, the Milky Bars are on me".
Well, actually they're  not. They're the MSD Milky Bars instead.

Fair enough, @kevinhectoring, I take it back if that is the case.

You're still not making sense. 
If we weren't under an embargo, we'd likely have a different set of players, wouldn't we? 
And if we didn't have points deductions, the players wouldn't be playing catch up, with the burden of likely relegation hanging over them and on their minds? 
So what are we supposed to be comparing Rooney's performance with? 

I think Rooney has been on a hiding to nothing in his time here.  I think because of how competitive this squad has been in each individual game, people have forgotten what a cobbled together mess it is.
 
I honestly think to have this squad having acquired 22 points is outstanding work.  We're going down, there's no doubt about it, so to have to keep individual motivated week in week out when there is little to play for, is superb work.  I think it might get worse as the season goes on unfortunately, but I honestly think Rooney has done a superb job.  For what he has at his disposal.  
 
In summary, no, I don't think he should be doing better in the circumstances.  The circumstances are truly dire, he's doing better than I expected.

@Jourdan I have to disagree. We have a poster @kevinhectoring excusing Mel on one thread, but then issuing doubts about the manager on another. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. One is the actual cause of the malaise affecting the club. Rooney could leave tomorrow, the next incumbent probably wouldn't make much difference, like when Ipswich replaced Paul Hurst (lower league) with Paul Lambert (more experienced). Nothing changed. I'm not saying Rooney is exempt from criticism, far from it, but I do think some of our fans are in denial about our situation: deduction & embargo. They are inextricably linked to our present situation. 
We began the season under the cloud of the threat of a 9pt deduction (accounting irregularities). The situation has got progressively worse.
Forsyth is now a veteran, three cruciate injuries, I think, time has caught up with him, maybe he isn't up  to the rigours of a demanding league. CKR a journeyman, probably had one of his stand-out seasons in an erratic career. How do we know he's still carrying that injury he suffered at Peterborough? Baldock: injury-prone, how can he have an extended run in the side if he keeps getting  injured? Morrison has made 125 appearance in a nomadic career (28). I'll be honest with you, I did entertain the vague hope Rooney would transform him into that great talent/enigma everybody kept saying he was & he'd drive us up the table. Talk about misguided. 
He's made 17 appearances at Derby, 3rd or 4th highest of his career.  You're asking Rooney to turn around a player that SAF gave up on, Allardyce signed & eventually dismissed & Redknapp gave a brief chance to at QPR . It suggests he is erratic.
On the flipside, you take out a long-serving player (3-4 seasons) the heart-beat of a team, like Mowatt, & Barnsley have struggled. It can't be all because of the manager & one player, but Mowatt, 26, is the sort of experienced player needed (in his prime). 
Have you thought that sometimes a player flatters to deceive or maybe isn't as good as you think he is, or maybe thinks he is himself? Talent will out even in a poor side. Sibley perhaps, definitely Jozwiak. Wanted him to do well, shocking for Poland in their exit to Sweden. They actually pulled back a 2-0 deficit after he was subbed. He failed to put one cross in for Lewandowski, who looked visibly frustrated with him. That was nothing to do with us & I think Sousa is a good manager with a lot of experience around Europe.
The Championship is full of fine margins, four of the games you list were away fixtures. Has it ever occurred to you that the other team wants to win as well? Not terribly surprised we lost yesterday, Bristol City were coming off a poor performance & had a point to prove. 
It may be a poor league, but it is also one of the most honest. As evidenced by how we are performing under our given circumstances & the rest of the division. It is a division where any side can beat each other on any given day if a favourite turns up & is complacent.
There are few 'gimmes' as Bournemouth discovered. Using your rationale, how can you explain Preston winning there yet losing at Blackburn? Shouldn't they be winning that kind of away game then, too?

@Jourdan I have to disagree. We have a poster @kevinhectoring excusing Mel on one thread, but then issuing doubts about the manager on another. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. One is the actual cause of the malaise affecting the club. Rooney could leave tomorrow, the next incumbent probably wouldn't make much difference, like when Ipswich replaced Paul Hurst (lower league) with Paul Lambert (more experienced). Nothing changed. I'm not saying Rooney is exempt from criticism, far from it, but I do think some of our fans are in denial about our situation: deduction & embargo. They are inextricably linked to our present situation. 
We began the season under the cloud of the threat of a 9pt deduction (accounting irregularities). The situation has got progressively worse.
Forsyth is now a veteran, three cruciate injuries, I think, time has caught up with him, maybe he isn't up  to the rigours of a demanding league. CKR a journeyman, probably had one of his stand-out seasons in an erratic career. How do we know he's still carrying that injury he suffered at Peterborough? Baldock: injury-prone, how can he have an extended run in the side if he keeps getting  injured? Morrison has made 125 appearance in a nomadic career (28). I'll be honest with you, I did entertain the vague hope Rooney would transform him into that great talent/enigma everybody kept saying he was & he'd drive us up the table. Talk about misguided. 
He's made 17 appearances at Derby, 3rd or 4th highest of his career.  You're asking Rooney to turn around a player that SAF gave up on, Allardyce signed & eventually dismissed & Redknapp gave a brief chance to at QPR . It suggests he is erratic.
On the flipside, you take out a long-serving player (3-4 seasons) the heart-beat of a team, like Mowatt, & Barnsley have struggled. It can't be all because of the manager & one player, but Mowatt, 26, is the sort of experienced player needed (in his prime). 
Have you thought that sometimes a player flatters to deceive or maybe isn't as good as you think he is, or maybe thinks he is himself? Talent will out even in a poor side. Sibley perhaps, definitely Jozwiak. Wanted him to do well, shocking for Poland in their exit to Sweden. They actually pulled back a 2-0 deficit after he was subbed. He failed to put one cross in for Lewandowski, who looked visibly frustrated with him. That was nothing to do with us & I think Sousa is a good manager with a lot of experience around Europe.
The Championship is full of fine margins, four of the games you list were away fixtures. Has it ever occurred to you that the other team wants to win as well? Not terribly surprised we lost yesterday, Bristol City were coming off a poor performance & had a point to prove. 
It may be a poor league, but it is also one of the most honest. As evidenced by how we are performing under our given circumstances & the rest of the division. It is a division where any side can beat each other on any given day if a favourite turns up & is complacent.
There are few 'gimmes' as Bournemouth discovered. Using your rationale, how can you explain Preston winning there yet losing at Blackburn? Shouldn't they be winning that kind of away game then, too?

Like I said earlier in the thread, debate is of course valid & criticism also. No-one is pretending Rooney is perfect.
I think what his detractors tend to do though is belittle the context of his performance this season. Even the OP says 'ignoring the points deductions & embargoes'...but you can't ignore the embargo. It is an intrinsic part of why the squad is weak & ergo why our expectations should be tapered as such.
The point about 5 wins in 30 odd matches is also misleading & I think we need to separate last season from this season. I was as vocal as any poster on this forum last season about what I perceived to be Rooney's poor management & I was also one of only 7 people in January who voted for him not to be given the manager's position after the impressive run in Dec/Jan. The difference is that he had Waghorn, Wisdom, Clarke, Edmundson, Roberts & Gregory last season (& Bielik until early Feb), we played dreadful football, the young players looked shot & we still lost matches. Very different to the situation this season.
As to your point about whether he has the ability to guide us to promotion, the answer is we have no way of knowing that until we're in that position. He needs a stable, properly resourced club & only then can we make an informed judgement about his ability to rebuild the club.

It also feels opportunistic.
2 weeks ago we beat previously unbeaten away & top the table Bournemouth. Then followed it up a few days later with a point at top the table Fulham. Unbelievable results.
One last minute defeat to a top 6 side & a narrow defeat to an admittedly poor side later & Rooney's overall record is being dredged up. Little patience & little loyalty to a manager who has carried this club quite frankly since May.
This debate also forgets Rooney's role in attracting investment. I hope people don't kid themselves that his name & contacts haven't made us a much more attractive buy. Folk gnashing their teeth about liquidation on one thread & then demanding better results from a squad this weak is just a staggering lack of lateral thinking.

The irony is that whilst GSCE's approach was dull, it probably got closer to promotion than the millions Mel invested. Clough developed a side that was not far off from success but needed a bit of investment. McClaren took it on to finish 3rd, higher than any of the subsequent play-off finishes under Morris.
I think stability can help in the face of rivals having money to spend. QPR illustrate this, as do Brentford, the more famous model. QPR finished 13th & 9th under Warburton, losing 9L & 8L at home in each respective season. They were a work in progress. They only had 4W last season up to January before a strong second half with 15W. 

He also had access to 12 disciples, a squad depth we can only dream of, as well being able to convert tax-collectors, so he'd be able to sort out the HMRC as well.
 

He also had access to 12 disciples, a squad depth we can only dream of, as well being able to convert tax-collectors, so he'd be able to sort out the HMRC as well.
 

No .
November to Feb is always a testing time in a hard division where squads get stretched to injuries (Buchanan). We have a squad of veterans (the centre-halves), journeymen (Baldock, Morrison), home-grown players with some experience and others for whom this season is their baptism (Festy, Thompson). 
Contrast with how Ipswich got relegated a couple of seasons ago. At least 13x away defeats by two goals or more. Yes, we still lost but I feel Rooney has had to tailor a system that made us at least competitive & stay in games, so the defense has know-how & experience, the midfield competitive but lacks creativity, the front-line is where we are lacking a real cutting edge. We even suffered this in the days under Clough where we had the likes of Robinson or had to rely on loans. Goal-scorers cost.
I think if we start going trading punches with sides, we could start suffering heavier defeats. You saw it last season with the heavy defeats at the likes of Preston.
The Chelsea analogy makes no sense about playing without a striker. How can you compare the Champions of Europe to us? It's not as if they are without a striker, their main one has been out injured. Our main one was once the Coca Cola kid practically two decades ago.
I do not want to get into arguments, we are all so desperately frustrated, it's as if the football has taken a backburner & the whole existence of the club is under threat. 
There's only one person ultimately to blame & that's Mel More-Risk. If Rooney is expected to squeeze more out of this squad,  how on earth can you then utilize £150m-200m to leave a club under the threat of liquidation?
 

Yeah, I can't see it happening to be honest. I tend to lean towards the less optimistic side, but must admit I tend not to vocalise it much because I can tell others are of a different mind, and that's fine. We're all wired differently I guess. 

There's so much nonsense in this that I can't be bothered to do a proper response. 
Morris has made a shedload of mistakes and ended up, for whatever reasons, unable/unwilling to fund the club any further and leaving us in a dire position, but if he'd truly wanted to maximise his return, he'd have carried on with the GSE model, investing the minimum necessary and hoping to fluke promotion. 

No .
November to Feb is always a testing time in a hard division where squads get stretched to injuries (Buchanan). We have a squad of veterans (the centre-halves), journeymen (Baldock, Morrison), home-grown players with some experience and others for whom this season is their baptism (Festy, Thompson). 
Contrast with how Ipswich got relegated a couple of seasons ago. At least 13x away defeats by two goals or more. Yes, we still lost but I feel Rooney has had to tailor a system that made us at least competitive & stay in games, so the defense has know-how & experience, the midfield competitive but lacks creativity, the front-line is where we are lacking a real cutting edge. We even suffered this in the days under Clough where we had the likes of Robinson or had to rely on loans. Goal-scorers cost.
I think if we start going trading punches with sides, we could start suffering heavier defeats. You saw it last season with the heavy defeats at the likes of Preston.
The Chelsea analogy makes no sense about playing without a striker. How can you compare the Champions of Europe to us? It's not as if they are without a striker, their main one has been out injured. Our main one was once the Coca Cola kid practically two decades ago.
I do not want to get into arguments, we are all so desperately frustrated, it's as if the football has taken a backburner & the whole existence of the club is under threat. 
There's only one person ultimately to blame & that's Mel More-Risk. If Rooney is expected to squeeze more out of this squad,  how on earth can you then utilize £150m-200m to leave a club under the threat of liquidation?
 

No .
November to Feb is always a testing time in a hard division where squads get stretched to injuries (Buchanan). We have a squad of veterans (the centre-halves), journeymen (Baldock, Morrison), home-grown players with some experience and others for whom this season is their baptism (Festy, Thompson). 
Contrast with how Ipswich got relegated a couple of seasons ago. At least 13x away defeats by two goals or more. Yes, we still lost but I feel Rooney has had to tailor a system that made us at least competitive & stay in games, so the defense has know-how & experience, the midfield competitive but lacks creativity, the front-line is where we are lacking a real cutting edge. We even suffered this in the days under Clough where we had the likes of Robinson or had to rely on loans. Goal-scorers cost.
I think if we start going trading punches with sides, we could start suffering heavier defeats. You saw it last season with the heavy defeats at the likes of Preston.
The Chelsea analogy makes no sense about playing without a striker. How can you compare the Champions of Europe to us? It's not as if they are without a striker, their main one has been out injured. Our main one was once the Coca Cola kid practically two decades ago.
I do not want to get into arguments, we are all so desperately frustrated, it's as if the football has taken a backburner & the whole existence of the club is under threat. 
There's only one person ultimately to blame & that's Mel More-Risk. If Rooney is expected to squeeze more out of this squad,  how on earth can you then utilize £150m-200m to leave a club under the threat of liquidation?
 

No .
November to Feb is always a testing time in a hard division where squads get stretched to injuries (Buchanan). We have a squad of veterans (the centre-halves), journeymen (Baldock, Morrison), home-grown players with some experience and others for whom this season is their baptism (Festy, Thompson). 
Contrast with how Ipswich got relegated a couple of seasons ago. At least 13x away defeats by two goals or more. Yes, we still lost but I feel Rooney has had to tailor a system that made us at least competitive & stay in games, so the defense has know-how & experience, the midfield competitive but lacks creativity, the front-line is where we are lacking a real cutting edge. We even suffered this in the days under Clough where we had the likes of Robinson or had to rely on loans. Goal-scorers cost.
I think if we start going trading punches with sides, we could start suffering heavier defeats. You saw it last season with the heavy defeats at the likes of Preston.
The Chelsea analogy makes no sense about playing without a striker. How can you compare the Champions of Europe to us? It's not as if they are without a striker, their main one has been out injured. Our main one was once the Coca Cola kid practically two decades ago.
I do not want to get into arguments, we are all so desperately frustrated, it's as if the football has taken a backburner & the whole existence of the club is under threat. 
There's only one person ultimately to blame & that's Mel More-Risk. If Rooney is expected to squeeze more out of this squad,  how on earth can you then utilize £150m-200m to leave a club under the threat of liquidation?
 

Obviously nothing wrong with debate but I do find the suggestion ridiculous.
This is probably the worst set of circumstances any post-war Derby manager has ever had to manage. On results alone, we are above bottom 3 despite the EFL trying to strangle our squad for the past 2 years & our owner deciding he didn't fancy funding us any longer.
We play decent football albeit without a cutting edge...not surprising as we have no strikers. With regard to Sibley, his first touch has been so poor I wouldn't pick him either. You simply can not get away with that when you're as slow as he is.
And no point discussing overall win stats without considering context. May as well anoint Steve McClaren as our best manager ever on that basis or say Paul Clement was a better manager than Jim Smith or Arthur Cox.

I'm feeling a little pessimistic about the whole scenario, to be honest.
In the last few days, the mood music around the club has changed. 
It now seems we're in a desperate fight just to survive, from a position a week or two ago when we knew the pitfalls, had dealt with the EFL, and could at least see a future even in League One.
I don't know if that has transmitted through to the players given today's performance, but I'm nowhere near as optimistic as I was a week or two ago about on continued survival.
 
 

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