Highgate

A sign of quite how messed up the world is when the devastation in Acapulco barely made it into my newsfeed and I've only just read about what happened now, a week later.
Rising ocean temperatures led to what they believed to be an imminent tropical storm to rapidly intensify in wind speed at an unprecedented rate within a matter of hours, leaving no time to evacuate or take precaution. Suddenly they were just being hit by 165mph winds
I know that some will yet again dismiss it as "fear mongering" but this actually happened and the science points to it happening again and again as ocean temperatures increase

Not wishing to defend the dreadful Iranian regime for a moment, but when people or regime's call 'death to Israel' or to wipe 'Israel off the map', that's usually translated in the Israeli or Western media as a genocidal threat against the Jewish people in general. Whereas it seems to more plausible that what they really want to do is just destroy and remove the state of Israel and replace it with the state of Palestine, presumably where Jews could still exist like they had always done before. Indeed Khameni himself has said as much, 
“The disappearance of Israel does not mean the disappearance of the Jewish people, because we have nothing against [Jews]....wiping out Israel means that the Palestinian people, including Muslims, Christians and Jews, should be able to determine their fate and get rid of thugs such as [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu,”
In other words they want to reverse the process of the 1930s and 1940s.  Not that this goal seems plausible anymore, not while the US exists anyway, but I don't think it sounds like a desire for genocide as such.
Unfortunately I do fear that there are elements within Hamas now, possibly somewhat inspired by ISIS in recent years, that have more genocidal motivations or at least want to expel Jewish people from a future Palestine, and set up a strict Islamic state there instead. Those sort of beliefs seem completely incompatible with any sort of lasting peace in the region. 
 
 

Money power is the root cause of most evil in this world, the money movers are humanity's worst enemy.  My generation has been hoodwinked by these insatiable gangsters, fallen for their divide and rule tactics and failed to protect democracy.  I tell my son and his friends it is up to them to do better than we have and to inspire us to join their efforts.

I can’t believe it’s 2023, and we’ve got a war in Europe, and Israel vs Palestine.
Its 202-f******-3! Surely everyone has learned that no one wins from war by now. How are we just repeating the same s*** over and over again, and not learning any lessons? Who the f*** is in charge, and who the f*** put them in charge? Time for old men to just f*** off, bury their Cold War historical bull s***, and leave the world to the kids to run.
We’re suffering existential crises from all angles, never have we needed to put our collective 7 billion heads together more. And yet old men are sending kids to die. And never have we been more divided.
Its so depressing.

Thanks for that info.  The fact that it was non binding just makes it worse, we can't even pretend to do the right thing.

You were in good company as far as much of Europe were concerned.  The non-binding (and therefore probably useless anyway) resolution passed 141-14 with 44 abstentions.  But in the EU 27 it was only 8-4 in favour with 13 abstentions.  Also the UK abstained, while the US obviously voted against the resolution.

Clocks go back tonight.
I'm turning mine back to 1972.

Not killing Israeli hostages by bombing Gaza?
How many deaths in Gaza do you feel appropriate in response to the attacks?

I don't oppose Israel. I think Israelis should be able to live in peace and security in that part of the world without fear of attack. They have every right to do so in my opinion. The problem Israel is that it declared itself a Jewish state from the start, so instead of Israel/Palestine being a country where Jewish people could live or migrate to, safe from their European persecutors, it instead became a place where Israelis dominated Palestinian. Even to the extent of not allowing Palestinians who fled of the war of 1948 to return to their homeland ever, while permitting European or North Americans Jews claim citizenship without any impediment.  In short I oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians ever since 1948 at least. 
Hamas are an appalling terrorist organization and their attack on 10/7 was barbarous.  It's hard to say what an appropriate response would be now, but an appropriate response at the time would have been for the IDF to engage Hamas as it happened and eliminate the threat before they could do too much damage.  Unfortunately the IDF were caught napping to an alarming degree.  Increasing security at the border would be an appropriate response, increase intelligence efforts would be another appropriate step. There is no good answer really, given the situation as it is.  Bombing civilians and an invasion of Gaza...will kill more innocent people than were killed in Hamas' attack.  In fact that's probably happened already, it will also end any possibility for peace in the region for decades, as another generation of Hamas terrorists will inevitably be created.  Exactly what Hamas would want in fact. The bombing will not only be an inappropriate response but it will also be counter-productive.  Disarming Hamas is a justifiable goal for the Israeli government, I just don't see how it can be done without making things even worse. 
The best long term solution is, and always was, treating the Palestinian people with justice and to stop occupying and settling the little land they have left. If they do that, the support for Hamas from within their own community would steadily diminish.  Regrettably, I can't see anything like that happening. 

I don't oppose Israel. I think Israelis should be able to live in peace and security in that part of the world without fear of attack. They have every right to do so in my opinion. The problem Israel is that it declared itself a Jewish state from the start, so instead of Israel/Palestine being a country where Jewish people could live or migrate to, safe from their European persecutors, it instead became a place where Israelis dominated Palestinian. Even to the extent of not allowing Palestinians who fled of the war of 1948 to return to their homeland ever, while permitting European or North Americans Jews claim citizenship without any impediment.  In short I oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians ever since 1948 at least. 
Hamas are an appalling terrorist organization and their attack on 10/7 was barbarous.  It's hard to say what an appropriate response would be now, but an appropriate response at the time would have been for the IDF to engage Hamas as it happened and eliminate the threat before they could do too much damage.  Unfortunately the IDF were caught napping to an alarming degree.  Increasing security at the border would be an appropriate response, increase intelligence efforts would be another appropriate step. There is no good answer really, given the situation as it is.  Bombing civilians and an invasion of Gaza...will kill more innocent people than were killed in Hamas' attack.  In fact that's probably happened already, it will also end any possibility for peace in the region for decades, as another generation of Hamas terrorists will inevitably be created.  Exactly what Hamas would want in fact. The bombing will not only be an inappropriate response but it will also be counter-productive.  Disarming Hamas is a justifiable goal for the Israeli government, I just don't see how it can be done without making things even worse. 
The best long term solution is, and always was, treating the Palestinian people with justice and to stop occupying and settling the little land they have left. If they do that, the support for Hamas from within their own community would steadily diminish.  Regrettably, I can't see anything like that happening. 

I don't oppose Israel. I think Israelis should be able to live in peace and security in that part of the world without fear of attack. They have every right to do so in my opinion. The problem Israel is that it declared itself a Jewish state from the start, so instead of Israel/Palestine being a country where Jewish people could live or migrate to, safe from their European persecutors, it instead became a place where Israelis dominated Palestinian. Even to the extent of not allowing Palestinians who fled of the war of 1948 to return to their homeland ever, while permitting European or North Americans Jews claim citizenship without any impediment.  In short I oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians ever since 1948 at least. 
Hamas are an appalling terrorist organization and their attack on 10/7 was barbarous.  It's hard to say what an appropriate response would be now, but an appropriate response at the time would have been for the IDF to engage Hamas as it happened and eliminate the threat before they could do too much damage.  Unfortunately the IDF were caught napping to an alarming degree.  Increasing security at the border would be an appropriate response, increase intelligence efforts would be another appropriate step. There is no good answer really, given the situation as it is.  Bombing civilians and an invasion of Gaza...will kill more innocent people than were killed in Hamas' attack.  In fact that's probably happened already, it will also end any possibility for peace in the region for decades, as another generation of Hamas terrorists will inevitably be created.  Exactly what Hamas would want in fact. The bombing will not only be an inappropriate response but it will also be counter-productive.  Disarming Hamas is a justifiable goal for the Israeli government, I just don't see how it can be done without making things even worse. 
The best long term solution is, and always was, treating the Palestinian people with justice and to stop occupying and settling the little land they have left. If they do that, the support for Hamas from within their own community would steadily diminish.  Regrettably, I can't see anything like that happening. 

That doesn't seem like a reasonable conclusion to draw.  All that has been demonstrated is that Israel didn't protect it's citizens this time.  It seems they may have become overconfident in their overwhelming military superiority and let their guard down. They were simply under prepared for this barbaric attack, possibly partially due to a government distracted by political upheaval and, of course, huge intelligence failure. The border with Gaza is 50kms in total and Israel can turn that into a fortress if they so wanted to. Even more so than it has been before. I can't see Israel being as easy to attack from Gaza ever again.
The notion that Israel can simply wipe out Hamas is just bonkers, I don't know how else to describe it.  Imagine the enormous loss of civilian life that would entail. If Israel kills that many Palestinians, then they would probably turn around and find out that half the West Bank would all of a sudden be Hamas supporters too.  You don't wipe out an embedded terrorist group like that.....it just doesn't happen. I don't know the solutions for Israel or for Palestine, but I know trying to bomb Hamas out of existence in one of the most densely populated areas in the world is not the answer. 

This is a perfect example of when I’d like to see retrospective punishment for blatant diving. 
 
As it happened, it didn’t impact the game and despite how woeful the referee was we can blame him for the result but, this sort of thing really needs to be stamped out.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me to be a critic of both Israel's entirely unjust and downright colonial treatment of Palestinians since 1948, and a critic of years of Hamas' disgraceful and inhuman attacks on civilians culminating in this latest atrocity. 
I have absolutely no idea how this can get any better...it's always been such a ticking time tomb. 
 
 

So the US vetoed the UN resolution that called for a pause in the fighting to allow humanitarian assistance into Gaza.  They don't even try to look impartial do they?  
I had hoped that they may be using their enormous influence in Israel to urge as much restraint as possible...but I can't see any evidence of that yet. 
I know I'm just repeating another poster, @Eddie I think, but the UN is completely broken and toothless until the veto system is abolished. 

Yeah, that's quite incriminating!  It's amazing how much bipartisan support Israel has always had in the US and even among the general population. It's been wavering somewhat in recent years but it's still at a remarkable level. The US record of supporting Israel at the UN, often against the wishes of the vast majority of members, has probably only served to prolong the conflict in my opinion.  When the most powerful country in the world has clearly sided with the occupier rather than the occupied, what chance have the Palestinians really had.
Unfortunately some have turned to Hamas for solutions and that just leads to more violence, suffering and conflict for everyone involved.  

So the US vetoed the UN resolution that called for a pause in the fighting to allow humanitarian assistance into Gaza.  They don't even try to look impartial do they?  
I had hoped that they may be using their enormous influence in Israel to urge as much restraint as possible...but I can't see any evidence of that yet. 
I know I'm just repeating another poster, @Eddie I think, but the UN is completely broken and toothless until the veto system is abolished. 

So the US vetoed the UN resolution that called for a pause in the fighting to allow humanitarian assistance into Gaza.  They don't even try to look impartial do they?  
I had hoped that they may be using their enormous influence in Israel to urge as much restraint as possible...but I can't see any evidence of that yet. 
I know I'm just repeating another poster, @Eddie I think, but the UN is completely broken and toothless until the veto system is abolished. 

Some are , just as some on the Arab side are doing the same with hamas , problem is it’s not enough on either side 🤷🏻‍♂️

Aware of the forum rules I wrote and not wanting to go down the religion path, I'll skirt it the best I can.
Wasn't long ago Islamophobia was thrown about, yet here we are not wanting to see people killed that so happen to be muslim, now antisemitism is thrown back. 
Religion amongst others is now being used as a layer of protection against criticism.
And we should be able to call out what's wrong in the world without being labelled, be it fat, thin, male, female, muslim, christian, white, asian, mixed race.
The loss of civilian lives be it Israeli or Palestinian is wrong. Simple as that. Refer back to my first post in this thread. Stop killing people ffs.

There is no justification for the way Russia has responded to the expansion of NATO, none whatsoever, I think that was the point.
Whilst you're correct NATO have never attacked Russia, Russia will claim it's necessary for their own defence, what should they have done, nothing? Sat back and watched their "enemies" surround them and setup military bases on their doorsteps?
Would that not be a sign of weakness?
Same argument being used for Israel bombing Gaza now, what were they to do, nothing?
Both Russia and Israel's actions with zero care for the loss of lives to innocent civilians, is just, words fail me at this point. 

I hope we can still laugh at the stupid stuff. 

Hamas have injured and killed civilians.  They have taken those lives for their own objectives.
Israel maybe aiming to kill Hamas, but they do so with the near certain knowledge that dropping a bomb in Gaza is going to injure and kill civilians.  They too are taking civilian lives for their own purposes.
They are fundamentally the same act.
It is ludicrous to keep saying, "but they do not on purpose kill civilians" as if that makes it okay.  When Olivia Pratt-Korbel was killed in Liverpool we didn't say to the killer "oh never mind you weren't aiming at her".  Nor did we charge him with the lesser manslaughter.  He was convicted of murder.  It was irrelevant that Olivia was not the target.
Now war is messy and accidents do happen, a rocket misfires etc and civilians get killed.  But what Israel is doing is not an accident.  The deaths of civilians are entirely predictable.
As far as I can see the only way the death of a civilian can be purposefully taken is if it ultimately saves more lives.  I would suggest a lot more lives have to be saved.  Israel cannot claim this.
The invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 was a mistake, worse was the invasion of Iraq.  Why do we never learn from history and endlessly repeat the same mistakes?  
I'm not a philosopher, but given the already high number of civilian deaths and the high number of military deaths (on both sides) that will come in a ground invasion, I think the morally correct thing for Israel to have done/do is nothing.

It's the fact they felt the need to drop a second bomb that I can never fathom.